RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it? I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. IRI is IRI, period. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote: What is the cursor problem exactly? Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows' Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily. You'll get mad very soon. And why is it hard to solve? Because: 1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm. 2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text. 3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of configurability for different kind of users in different locales. Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? No. Unless you start one. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote: What is the cursor problem exactly? Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows' Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily. You'll get mad very soon. Yeah, that one! And why is it hard to solve? Because: 1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm. 2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text. 3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of configurability for different kind of users in different locales. Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? No. Unless you start one. And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how experienced you are, you'll always get surprised. Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body? roozbeh cheers, Masoud ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Let me inject my foolish questions in the middle of this hot flaming discussion. What is the cursor problem exactly? And why is it hard to solve? Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? Hi there, Well, the cursor problem is not Persian-specific, but bidi-specific. The problem is that in a text editor with mixed right-to-left and left-to-right, you have a cursor and Left and Right arrow to navigate in the text. Now design the movement and cursor shape such that it behaves in an expected/easy to learn/predictable way. About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how experienced you are, you'll always get surprised. Yeah, that's known as the twin of the cursor problem. Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body? No, you are talking about a very pleasant organ of your body ;-). The wiki is already planned for FarsiWeb, we can open a section to public. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary, Excellent! You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar, bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found! Yes, that's right. This is relatively easy to implement. but I think we'll need other people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*. Will this require separate dedicated server(s)? (I'm thinking about Behdad and the Persian Digital Library here...) Hmmm, not necessarily *dedicated*. As long as there's enough web space for some part of the data to reside on the server, and I have access to it to install an application which processes the queries locally, it doesn't really have to be dedicated, unless the server's already fully loaded by other tasks. I don't think we'll need dedicated servers for this job. The process of searching can be done fast enough. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb website, when it became ready. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it? These indeed look exciting, but in my laptop, not theirs. I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. Sure, if it really stays with *us*. They'll be doing is what I asked if you still get excited about. Man, how many yours you have been in this business? IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results wasting oil money. You know I'm so disappointed about the National Persian Linux project. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically prove it can't be solved. But of course that would be theoretically, not practically. (that bidi is not reversible simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) roozbeh BTW, guess enough of this thread. Find another interesting thing to continue this beautiful month. :-) Ok, Professor Yarshater, the author of the great Encyclopedia Iranica[1] is going to be around in two weeks. I may get the chance to conduct a short interview with him. So, ideas about what to ask, what to focus, is appreciated. [1] http://www.iranica.com/ --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. And I don't even remember doing it! :'-( When was it? :)). Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't nothing. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote: I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and then to some publishing program. I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so much text. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:26, C Bobroff wrote: That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as they are discovered. Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or dictionary writers? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote: I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and then to some publishing program. I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so much text. Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or dictionary writers? We can we directed by others to edit. I'm just saying the online version has this potential, unlike the printed version. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
I know of a friend, Mr. Yusef Amiri, who with Mr. Rohani Rankuhi (long time DB expert and a professor at Shahid Beheshti/Melli University) wrote two books, all in MS Word, chapter by chapter. One of the books was on C++, the other one (IIRC) was on OO design or something like it. Yeah, that and the fact that you really should have TONS of memory if you want to have it all in one file, plus a dual processor (2000+ Mhz) machine ;-) Masoud C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote: I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and then to some publishing program. I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so much text. Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 18:55, C Bobroff wrote: Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files? And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 19:24, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: Yeah, that and the fact that you really should have TONS of memory if you want to have it all in one file, plus a dual processor (2000+ Mhz) machine ;-) And even then, the quality will be incomparable with something typeset with, say, TeX-e-Parsi. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand? They would have done that BEFORE exporting to their publishing software. Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
It's a well known fact that MS Word is mainly for office work. Short documents and presentations. Professional writers seldom use MS Office for large documents like books. This WP is known to crash when doing things like numbering and sorting on large documents. No writer can afford such disaster. On Mac platform, Nisus Writer was a favorite of writers on OS 9. On OS X Mellel is trying to get there but it's not there yet. I heard that TeX is used mostly for technical documents because it handles very well scientific characters and equations. But for mortal writers it's too complicated to master. Behnam On 7-Jun-04, at 12:38 PM, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 18:55, C Bobroff wrote: Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files? And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:20, C Bobroff wrote: Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed? OK, my mom just called. She was a little upset. ;-) BTW, wait for the news from the next cool thing, called tarh-e jaame'-e gostaresh-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi. The guys involved are wonderful (incomparable to any other such meetings I've attended), and they are planning to create things much better than your Sokhan Dictionary in the process, like a Persian equivalent of the Collins Cobuild dictionary. And at the same time, things like, let's say, a Unicode compliant text editor whose cursor doesn't jump around unexpectedly, and a standard about how to markup synchronous text, speech, and translations and then a tool to convert it to a web page (like what Connie does sometimes manually). And guess what? All the output will be Open Source! Keep a look here for saner announcements. I need to rush home. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:43, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: I bet you've never used MSFT word, have you? I had to use it for the reports/thesis I did at Sharif (circa 1997-8). There is this feature called 'Master Document' that is basically a binder for all kinds of word files, and can handle the chapter/page numbering and such. (I am talking about Word 6.0, the later versions should still have this feature). I use MS Word 2003 regularly. It's bad and sad, I can't have good change control with it, and I need to boot into MS Windows to use it, but it's working fine. I can't get fancy typesetting or automatic index generation with it, but it's generally OK for something like a report or a specification. But I won't try typesetting books in it. Even TeX-e-Parsi wasn't enough when I last typeset a book. It choked when I was using an automatically generated table of contents with a multiple numbering scheme for pages and non-standard footnotes. I needed to prepare the table of contents in a special separate run. I was not talking about small documents. I was talking about typesetting a whole seven-volume dictionary, with complex text and requirements. Fortunately, I have a good pen now. I just use it to write :-) But unfortunately, you've forgotten where that Meem thing was on the Persian keyboard, Huh? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
Hi there, Sokhan's dictionary is a first of its kind in Persian, since it gives the definitions of the words, rather than synonyms, which earlier works did. So, despite its deficiencies, I think it is a useful starting point. I understand Connie's point about the absence of vowels, etc., and I think that's an intrinsic problem for the learners of Persian, as usually harakaat are not written in Persian. The problem with encoding Persian into computer is rather fundamental though, as there is no standard yet, not even for use in every-day life, such as writing combinations (should we write a word like bi-maaye attached or separately? What about bi-kaar? ...). These are things that make things difficult in computer programs, especially for searching purposes. Please see a very well written article by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani in a recent issue of Nashr-e Danesh for this matter (don't have the exact reference). Yet another comment about making Persian dictionaries electronic (of course if somebody is up to it): there are now more progressive dictionaries than Aryanpour's, for example Hezareh, as it has more diversity in selecting word equivalents, and is more comprehensive. Best, Pedram On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote: I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/ (which was discussed above) is transliteration-based (using the so-called mikhi alphabet, available on the right side of the page), if that is what you want. It is platform-independent, as well as use-to-use (clickable). Pedram, Thanks but it's not what I need. First of all, I've actually been a *user* of this dictionary especially a few years ago when it was one of the ONLY online Persian dictionaries and I don't remember it ever being down or not working! I even had to write a report for some governmental agency on the state of online Persian materials in which I explained that on one hand this sort of dictionary is really only for Persian speakers wanting to learn English. Think of it: no vowels (harakat), no tashdid's. Is it not absurd that a dictionary should have half the letters missing?! On the other hand, due to the lack of textbooks with proper lists of vocabulary, the poor beginning students of Persian are forced to waste their time flipping through paper dictionaries which leads to fatigue and they don't have any energy left to actually *learn* the words. Therefore, I concluded this dictionary is much better than nothing at all. My professor even asked me to find out exactly which dictionary it was and that's how I came to know it was the Aryanpour Concise English-Persian dictionary and had that answer at the ready when Behdad asked the other day! ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sat, 2004-06-05 at 20:41, Pedram Safari wrote: The problem with encoding Persian into computer is rather fundamental though, as there is no standard yet, not even for use in every-day life, You raise a valid point, but please note that this is not about encoding, but about *orthography*. Every publisher has the same problems, even if he doesn't use a computer to typeset his text. Please see a very well written article by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani in a recent issue of Nashr-e Danesh for this matter (don't have the exact reference). We can try to scan the article and post the link to the list. BTW, Dr Masoumi-Hamedani has changed his stance on the matter recently, it seems. I heard this from him last Monday, but he didn't have the time to elaborate on the matter then. I can't get his exact opinion either, since he should be in France now and he's not coming back until about two months later, it seems. for example Hezareh, as it has more diversity in selecting word equivalents, and is more comprehensive. I agree that Hezareh is a good superset of Aryanpour. But the equivalents Persian terms are not always as good as Bateni. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 10:04, C Bobroff wrote: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in Persian dictionary, How is that possible when it's physically twice as big? Well, I was not talking literally. Doesn't add *much* may be better wording. The claim is that the work is based on Moin's heavily, and the new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong etymologies, bad definitions, etc. And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely *definitions* rather than *synonyms*. I can't confirm the definition vs synonyms part. I need to go ask, or check. I don't have either Moin's or Sokhan. We use Sadri-Afshar's Farhang-e Faarsi-e Emrooz mainly in FarsiWeb, since it has the modern sense of the words (but is sometimes inadequate, specially when decoding legal texts). Waste is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if they just hand over the data and all rights. I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help his sales, too). It will be good publicity for them! It will be. I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word ghash-gir meaning book-end and tried to use that on my Iranian friends but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...) Don't test these things on those Iranian friends next time, then. They seem to not have heard many other things also ;-) BTW, the word is the only one I know for a book-end. And no, I personally don't use the thing because my shelfs are always more than full, but that thing is clearly called ghash-gir if someone knows the device and its name. I don't know any other Persian word for it. I don't know if all the modern words have been approved by the Academy. No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in usage, approved by the slow Academy or not. Dictionaries get superceded rapidly ... Not in Iran. Even if we want to be inclusive, there are only a few usable Persian dictionaries: Dehkhoda's, Sokhan, Amid's, Moin's, and Emrooz. That's all! And the only ones that *may* get updated are Sokhan and Emrooz. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare Persian print quality books in MS Word?! I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and then to some publishing program. That was in response to Behdad mentioning typing. I didn't think there would be any typing involved. Don't know about Zarnegar. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong etymologies, bad definitions, etc. That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as they are discovered. I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help his sales, too). I wonder! full, but that thing is clearly called ghash-gir if someone knows the device and its name. Thank you for clearing that up! No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in usage, approved by the slow Academy or not. They can also be added as they get approved. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 07:46, C Bobroff wrote: Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs of the target audience and connect with English and other languages. For example, I think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes: AUTHOR Anvari, Hasan TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002] ISBN 9646961983 (set) It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms (estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect variations, etc. There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in Persian dictionary, and is a real waste of paper and shelf space. I've heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist, and the head of tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi). I'm not into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such for more details, if you insist. I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government and no profits expected. This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary, Excellent! You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar, bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found! but I think we'll need other people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*. Will this require separate dedicated server(s)? (I'm thinking about Behdad and the Persian Digital Library here...) -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in Persian dictionary, How is that possible when it's physically twice as big? And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely *definitions* rather than *synonyms*. and is a real waste of paper and shelf space. Waste is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if they just hand over the data and all rights. It will be good publicity for them! I've heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist, and the head of tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi). I'm not into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such for more details, if you insist. I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word ghash-gir meaning book-end and tried to use that on my Iranian friends but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...) I don't know if all the modern words have been approved by the Academy. Even so, it's wonderful! This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know. No publisher could have afforded that without subsidy. In any case, they'd better do something with it soon, whether sell to someone who can afford it or give to us for free. Dictionaries get superceded rapidly so they'd better hurry! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
[snip] I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government and no profits expected. I'm shocked to see that less than a dozen US universities have purchased it. I should think the author and publisher would be very happy to see it put online and all the efforts go to some use. Surely they will agree if their name is kept with the data! As for the technical part, I no longer have any doubts as to the abilities of the members of this group, especially after hearing the keyboard hack job for the sake of the ZWNJ earlier today! :-) I did the keyboard job just because I thought it's a lot easier to use Shift+Space instead of Shift+B, and also because I was in the process of typing in a lot of Persian data. It took only about half an hour (not the time to download the MSKLC tool of course) and improved my typing speed considerably. About your proposal, I'm personally interested in doing the technical part of the job. I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary, and I can also provide the hosting for the web interface. I can provide some amount of web space for the data as well, but I think we'll need other people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*. If the data has to reside on multiple web servers, I can code some sort of distributed query mechanism which transparently fetches the definitions for remote web servers and display them to the end user transparently. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
Hi there, I think Connie's answer is well put. I just need to make a note to clarify a point. Quoting Behdad Esfahbod: I guess I did my part on showing the community, including Dr Pedram Safari, that the claim by Masoud Hashemi regarding authoring the dictionary which is apparently Aryanpour, is not justified. I am sorry, Behdad, but I was not a bit convinced -- as far as I can recall, you couldn't even tell which version and which edition of Aryanpours dictionary was used. Besides, I am informed that some translations are changed or updated, and the dictionary is amenable to further changes, as the source is open and has been used by many, not just irmug (I do not have a full list now and have to trace my communications). Given this, I believe it would be a matter of concern (and even fairness) if such a democratic dictionary is falsely attributed to Aryanpours. In any case, I would like to testify again that the program is written by Masood Hashemi, so there is no copyright infringement if his share in this work, and his willingness to make it available to the public, is acknowledged and appreciated. There has been no official claim yet by anyone on the source of the database (I think Majid Khanban said that he supervised a project by Masood Hashemi and someone else from which this database came out, but he couldn't recall the name of the other person, am I right, Majid?). Neither any official claim by anyone on the dictionary content, unless you, Behdad, are Aryanpours' official attorney. As I had promised before, I would give appropriate credits in my dictionary page to the person who could produce convincing proof of his/her involvement in that project. Regards, Pedram On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Also I just heard from Ali Samadi that the Iranian Mac User group (in Persian) is actually at: http://www.irmug.org (I think I had a mistake earlier.) -Connie Hi Connie, I appreciate it if when you are mentioning this Iranian Mac Users Group on any of your pages, you also mention there that their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright of the Aryanpours, and the credits went to Masoud Hashemi are not justified. I guess I did my part on showing the community, including Dr Pedram Safari, that the claim by Masoud Hashemi regarding authoring the dictionary which is apparently Aryanpour, is not justified. Whether people remove the dictionary from their pages or not is up to them. --behdad On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright of the Aryanpours What I understood from that discussion was that a lot of online dictionaries are using Aryanpour data with no mention of the name Aryanpour. Others mention Aryanpour but no sign that the Aryanpour estate is getting any royalties or even that permission was asked or granted to use their data. Then I even noticed this one: http://www.aryanpour.com where I'm not even sure any Aryanpour data was used! Since the Aryanpour family was in the dictionary business before anyone could foresee the computer age and with Iranian copyright laws being what they are, I'm not sure even that legally speaking, these people are breaking any laws. This data falls into a grey zone. Now, morally speaking, I must say in principle, it is horrible to take someone else's labor without permission, especially when the Aryanpour family is still around and still making dictionaries. I would like to know if they care or are they so big and famous that this is of no concern? Or maybe they are wringing their hands in despair that no one cares and then they'll thank you, Behdad! Why doesn't someone go knock on their door and ask for an official statement! I am sure curious to know! I don't think the Iranian Mac Users Group is any more or less guilty than all the others using the Aryanpour data and unless the Aryanpour family or their lawyers issue a directive, I can't do anything but urge people to say where they got the data and also join in this and other discussions because we are now entering the age of the database when all kinds of things are going to go online and I'm sure everyone would like to feel good about what they're doing. I think it's a good thing that nowadays there are EULA's, etc where the owner can explicitly say what may or may not be done with the property. By the way, does anyone know of a Persian online dictionary which gives any sort of pronunciation or transliteration info in Latin script? I mean besides the Steingass and besides this one: http://iranianlanguages.com/dictionary.php?eng-per which is obviously being developed with much care and attention to quality but still seems to not have a very large word base. I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote: I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/ (which was discussed above) is transliteration-based (using the so-called mikhi alphabet, available on the right side of the page), if that is what you want. It is platform-independent, as well as use-to-use (clickable). Pedram, Thanks but it's not what I need. First of all, I've actually been a *user* of this dictionary especially a few years ago when it was one of the ONLY online Persian dictionaries and I don't remember it ever being down or not working! I even had to write a report for some governmental agency on the state of online Persian materials in which I explained that on one hand this sort of dictionary is really only for Persian speakers wanting to learn English. Think of it: no vowels (harakat), no tashdid's. Is it not absurd that a dictionary should have half the letters missing?! On the other hand, due to the lack of textbooks with proper lists of vocabulary, the poor beginning students of Persian are forced to waste their time flipping through paper dictionaries which leads to fatigue and they don't have any energy left to actually *learn* the words. Therefore, I concluded this dictionary is much better than nothing at all. My professor even asked me to find out exactly which dictionary it was and that's how I came to know it was the Aryanpour Concise English-Persian dictionary and had that answer at the ready when Behdad asked the other day! Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs of the target audience and connect with English and other languages. For example, I think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes: AUTHOR Anvari, Hasan TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002] ISBN 9646961983 (set) It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms (estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect variations, etc. I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government and no profits expected. I'm shocked to see that less than a dozen US universities have purchased it. I should think the author and publisher would be very happy to see it put online and all the efforts go to some use. Surely they will agree if their name is kept with the data! As for the technical part, I no longer have any doubts as to the abilities of the members of this group, especially after hearing the keyboard hack job for the sake of the ZWNJ earlier today! Thoughts? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
