Designing a bidi text input UI Was: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
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Re: Designing a bidi text input UI Was: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
ODC,
Thank you for getting serious about the issue. The reason I named names
was exactly to point out "ease of use" as being the key (the other two
are obvious requirements), and to suggest that designing for ease of
use is a separate art/science combination that most developers know so
little about. For this reason, I am against too much
implementation-centric approaches most developers take.
Did you read part one of my story? I hinted that ease of programming
forced the solution (Iran System vs Sayeh) that was less user friendly.
The current bad implementations of bi-di text editing are exactly the
result of thinking about ease of programming instead of ease of use.
Many developers claim a solution is not implementable because they are
too lazy or incompetent to implement it. So, I usually leave out
implementability as a "principle" to eliminate an excuse for poor
designs coming from lazy programmers.
In "ease of use" section you put a few requirements that actually skip
the initial principle design, the items you listed will be the output
of one of the design phases and may be altered repeatedly as the
overall design iteration progresses. Note that designing for ease of
use is highly experimental and iterative. The four step approach that
you propose misses that fundamental point. Ease of use is a philosophy
or goal, it does not give you requirements. The art and science of how
you translate ease of use into an implementation design is not well
recognized and formalized among software developers and it usually
doesn't get its due attention.
To better illustrate what I am talking about, I like to replace "4)
Test the implementations" with "Perform user testing and go back to the
drawing board it it is not working for the users.", As a result, "3)
Implement the designs" also becomes "Build realistic user testable
prototypes". See, I am talking about a different phase before usual
software design and implementation. The last working prototype from
that phase is the software design [1]. You'll take that design and
create an implementation detailed design for each target platform or
GUI tool-kit. Next comes the usual implement, test and optimize
iteration. I emphasize optimization because any
system/library/service-level software which will be used by many other
software components needs performance profiling, tuning and
optimization. The current bi-di implementations are very weak in this
regard and create performance bottlenecks.
- Hooman Mehr
[1] A design that can produce end-user testable prototypes tends to be
implementable.
On Jun 10, 2004, at 6:38 PM, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
Hooman,
I agree. However, I need to clarify a few things. I like a design
process that is based on principles. Here are the steps (of a design
process that I like):
1) Lay a few underlying design principles.
2) Try to come up with designs that follow (if not too closely) the
principles.
3) Implement the designs.
4) Test the implementations.
Of course, there are many important issues that are missing from the
above picture, mainly the fabric of the design group, or in other
words how the design group is shaped and works.
For this specific design, here are the main principles in order of
importance.
- ease of use
The design should consider a wide variety of users. e.g. users who are
introduced to computers and bidi text input at different levels. At
one end we may have people who are using a computer for the first time
and cannot read Latin characters; to people who are so used to mo-di
(as opposed to bidi) text input who like to see exactly the same
semantics at work for bidi text input; to people who have no problem
with the current bidi input system(s).
The input semantics hence should try to accommodate all these users.
The semantics that work for me as a user (versus a designer) are:
o Keystrokes should have a visual effect on screen.
- I should be able to see what I have typed so far.
- I like to see all control characters when typing as well.
o Cursor, or in general, visual cues should provide information to me
on what happens when I enter certain keys on keyboard. \footnote{A
design may implement two cursors when the (visual) position of the
next character is not unique}
o Arrow keys, I like the arrow keys move in visual order.Even if that
means I cannot place the cursor between some characters.
o Pointing device should allow me to perform functions I am used to
currently, like selection, copy+paste, and moving the text insertion
position.
o Selection, I like the selections to be continuous looking on screen.
In case, the selection looks fragmented, I like to be forced into
selecting a bigger part of text that is not fragmented.
- implementability
The design should consider the limitations of current platforms. For
example, the design should assume the input devices are a pointing
device and a standard keyboard, and the output device is a small area
of the screen. The designer sho
Designing a bidi text input UI Was: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
Hooman,
I agree. However, I need to clarify a few things. I like a design
process that is based on principles. Here are the steps (of a design
process that I like):
1) Lay a few underlying design principles.
2) Try to come up with designs that follow (if not too closely) the principles.
3) Implement the designs.
4) Test the implementations.
Of course, there are many important issues that are missing from the
above picture, mainly the fabric of the design group, or in other
words how the design group is shaped and works.
For this specific design, here are the main principles in order of importance.
- ease of use
The design should consider a wide variety of users. e.g. users who are
introduced to computers and bidi text input at different levels. At
one end we may have people who are using a computer for the first time
and cannot read Latin characters; to people who are so used to mo-di
(as opposed to bidi) text input who like to see exactly the same
semantics at work for bidi text input; to people who have no problem
with the current bidi input system(s).
The input semantics hence should try to accommodate all these users.
The semantics that work for me as a user (versus a designer) are:
o Keystrokes should have a visual effect on screen.
- I should be able to see what I have typed so far.
- I like to see all control characters when typing as well.
o Cursor, or in general, visual cues should provide information to me
on what happens when I enter certain keys on keyboard. \footnote{A
design may implement two cursors when the (visual) position of the
next character is not unique}
o Arrow keys, I like the arrow keys move in visual order.Even if that
means I cannot place the cursor between some characters.
o Pointing device should allow me to perform functions I am used to
currently, like selection, copy+paste, and moving the text insertion
position.
o Selection, I like the selections to be continuous looking on screen.
In case, the selection looks fragmented, I like to be forced into
selecting a bigger part of text that is not fragmented.
- implementability
The design should consider the limitations of current platforms. For
example, the design should assume the input devices are a pointing
device and a standard keyboard, and the output device is a small area
of the screen. The designer should also consider implementability of
the design inside current platforms.
- completeness.
The design should allow to the user to input all possible bidi texts.
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:53:43 +0430, Hooman Mehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Also, note that this issue is one of the single most important issues
> we need to solve in order to make using computers as easy for bi-di
> users as it is for Roman (or Latin) Script users.
>
> There is a lot of depth to this issue, don't try to come up with a
> quick idea and immediately think that you have solved it. It takes an
> expert in human computer interaction design. Someone in the same class
> as experts like Jeff Raskin, Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini, Donald A. Norman
> or Jakob Nielsen. Even then, we need extensive prototyping and user
> testing to refine the solution and select the best alternatives.
>
> Alright, I know, we don't live in an ideal world (or Iran) and we
> really can't expect to go after this issue in a really systematic way,
> but lets try to deal with it the best we can.
>
> - Hooman Mehr
>
> [1] If you have missed that post, look for "Persian GUI Design
> Specifications & Guidelines" in the list archives.
>
> On Jun 9, 2004, at 3:01 AM, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
>
> > Please ignore this while I can successfully prepare a long e-mail with
> > gmail :(
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, Ordak D. Coward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >> Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the
> >> problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an
> >> implemenation.
> >>
> >> The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it
> >> seems to three categories of concren.
> >>
> >> 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An
> >> example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE
> >> stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor
> >> (denoted by |) and text appear as follows:
> >> |
> >> |EH
> >>
> > ___
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> > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
> >
>
>
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Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
While we are at this topic: As I already mentioned, I am working on Persian GUI spec document [1]. One of the sizable portions of this document deals with this topic. If somebody wants to quickly start working on a new and improved implementation, please consult me to share my experience and early draft on the issue. Also, note that this issue is one of the single most important issues we need to solve in order to make using computers as easy for bi-di users as it is for Roman (or Latin) Script users. There is a lot of depth to this issue, don't try to come up with a quick idea and immediately think that you have solved it. It takes an expert in human computer interaction design. Someone in the same class as experts like Jeff Raskin, Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini, Donald A. Norman or Jakob Nielsen. Even then, we need extensive prototyping and user testing to refine the solution and select the best alternatives. Alright, I know, we don't live in an ideal world (or Iran) and we really can't expect to go after this issue in a really systematic way, but lets try to deal with it the best we can. - Hooman Mehr [1] If you have missed that post, look for "Persian GUI Design Specifications & Guidelines" in the list archives. On Jun 9, 2004, at 3:01 AM, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Please ignore this while I can successfully prepare a long e-mail with gmail :( On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, Ordak D. Coward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an implemenation. The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it seems to three categories of concren. 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor (denoted by |) and text appear as follows: | |EH ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
Please ignore this while I can successfully prepare a long e-mail with gmail :( On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, Ordak D. Coward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the > problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an > implemenation. > > The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it > seems to three categories of concren. > > 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An > example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE > stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor > (denoted by |) and text appear as follows: > | > |EH > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
Hi Ordak, The message you sent is not complete, right? And you know, this problem cannot be solved without implementation. Because the Unicode bidi algorithm we are implementing is such a beast with those things called "directional embeddings" and blah blah. BTW, please go on and elaborate, we get the idea. Thanks behdad On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the > problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an > implemenation. > > The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it > seems to three categories of concren. > > 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An > example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE > stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor > (denoted by |) and text appear as follows: > | > |EH > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > > --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
UI problems in editing BiDi texts.
Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an implemenation. The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it seems to three categories of concren. 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor (denoted by |) and text appear as follows: | |EH ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
