RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-24 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 16:02, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found
 many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of
 the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance.

Ah, that's an Eghbal calendar. They compute the calendar themselves
and specially have certain calendars for astrology uses. I won't
consider that an authoritative calendar.

Anyway, since we are going to recommend one thing, FarsiWeb will stick
with mordaad in written form. We understand the problems, but it looks
unavoidable. I will personally try to raise the issue in the next
Persian Academy meeting I attend.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-18 Thread Omid K. Rad
On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  It is still Amordad; I was going to point it out here
  to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. -Omid

 The answer is really simple:  Have you ever seen Amordad
 printed *anywhere*?  That's like using Pahlavi instead of 
 Modern Persian.

In fact I myself use 'Mordad' ordinarily, because I'm simply used to it.
But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
word is actually 'Amordad' whose initial ALEF is dropped over a
not-so-long time, because of the simplicity to pronounce. The initial
ALEF in Persian was used to negate a noun, thus Amordad which means 'the
month of no-death' or 'the month of life' has now altered to Mordad
meaning 'the month of death'. It was interesting for me when I found
that many *printed* almanacs observe to use the original word and I had
never noticed that. My mind always saw 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad'. So I
was thinking why not have another exception in our literature such as
the VAAV in words 'khaahesh' and 'khaahar' that is written but not read.
Write 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad' to have the modern word while not
corruptting the old good meaning.

I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found
many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of
the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance.

Omid
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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-18 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
 word is actually 'Amordad'

Recommend you avoid correcting anything. Once you make a decision to
correct one thing, you'll end up having to correct more and more and
then it will get out of control. If you have an option for variants, fine
but the one in the main entry should be the default, standard word in use
right now at the time you are collecting data. Your job is to DEscribe,
not PREscribe.
-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 00:40, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 On SuHumm, after finishing the
 sentence, I go back to vote for Jalali!  As it avoid binding
 yet another meaning to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't
 have to go on tell everybody that this Farsi Calendar is the
 same as the Persian Calendar or Iranian Calendar, which in
 turn used to be known as Jalali Calendar or Jalaali Calendar
 by MS...  Poof, Jalali Calendar is such a cute name, not?

It has a serious problem: there already exits a Jalali calendar that is
different from this calendar we are talking about. It uses the same leap
year rules, but each month is 30 days, with 5 or 6 additional days added
at the end [Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia, Vol 1, Page 657, taghvim-e
jalaali entry].

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 02:09, Omid K. Rad wrote:
 I totally agree with you that the name Jalali keeps away all that
 confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also
 Shamsi/Khorshidi.

There remains another confusion also: that the Afghan calendar is
different from the Iranian one in leap year calculation. And since the
origin of both is the Jalali calendar 

 But as far as I'm advised, the Jalali Calendar
 refers to an era other than the Hejrie Shamsi which is in use today,
 and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people
 have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify
 please?

I confirm. The leap year calculation rule is supposedly that same, but
the lengths of the months is different.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-11 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 22:50, hameed afssari wrote:
 1. Jalali is the offical calendar of Afghanestan (although they may be
 using different month name).

They use different month names, yes, but they officially call it the
same as Iran: Hejri-e Shamsi or Hejri-e Khorshidi. That can be
confirmed by looking at any calendar published in Afghanistan.

To find some information about the calendars of Afghanistan, please see
page 23 of the CLRA report:

http://evertype.com/standards/af/af-locales.pdf

 2. By calling it Persian or Iranian Calendar you are be default
 limiting it's use to a country or region and that is not correct.

Actually, that will make it very correct. The actual computation of the
leap year in this calendar is based on the Iranian coordinates. To quote
the text of the official Iranian law of 1925, the first day of the
year, is the day that sun passes the spring equinox point between the
noon of that day and the noon of its previous day. You can see that it
refers to *noon*, which is defined differently in different parts of the
world. Iraj Malekpour, the previous guy in charge of the official
calendar of Iran, used the noon of the 52.5 degree meridian
(nesf-on-nahaar) that defines the official time of the country. I don't
know the current practice.

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-09 Thread Omid K. Rad
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 Hi Omid,

Hi,

 A couple of points:  The Jalaali calendar, can you please
 tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined?

None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the
name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian
calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of
Hejrie Shamsi.


 The same about the locale definitions.

Which defenitions you mean exactly? Those fields that you see in the
draft are properties of some globalization classes defined in the .NET
Base Class Library (BCL), and we are defining their expected return
values for Iran.


 And next:  You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects
 are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses.  
 I'm almost sure this is not the case.  shared-source is the 
 old Microsoft trick.  Both of this two platforms (Mono and 
 DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as 
 non-commercial, both for free.  You can read more about why a 
 noncommercial-only license is not the best license at 
 http://www.fsf.org/

Yes, they are open source, and each part of them is published under the
terms of a GNU licence. You're right, you can create commercial
applications for these platforms as well.

 Later,

:)

 behdad
 

Omid



 On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
 
  Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET
 
 
  Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb,
 
  I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might
  already
  know) about .NET and our project.
 
  For your information:
 
  The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C#
 programming
  language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International
  standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The 
 submissions
  were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as:
 
  Standard ECMA-334 (C#)
  
 http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm
 
  Standard ECMA-335 (CLI)
  
 http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm
 
  Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#)
  
 http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=
  36
  768
 
  Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI)
  
 http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=
  36
  769
 
  This resulted in raising many new open source movements
 over .NET in
  the ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by
  third parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET 
 Framework
  conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has
 done or is
  already underway. Those are:
 
  The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX http://www.go-mono.com
 
  Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET
  http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html
 
  Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD
  http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli
 
 
  All of these implementations are published under noncommercial
  shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications 
  running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a 
 handful:
  Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We
 have also a
  choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL,
  COBOL, Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, 
  Mercury, Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual 
 Basic.NET, C#
  , Managed
  C++, etc.
 
  To make applications more interoperable between different
 platforms,
  all of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the
  fundamental namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that 
  reflect closely to what Microsoft releases. These don't include 
  namespaces such as Microsoft.*, yet include those that are 
 referred to
  as pure .NET namespaces which System.Globalization
 namespace is one of
  them.
 
  The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact
 Framework -
  a lighter version of the framework that installs on
 handheld devices.
 
  In the Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET project
  (IranL10nInfo for short) we have selected to work only on 
 those parts
  of .NET that are in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET).
  Any changes that Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to 
  every non-Microsoft implementations of the Class Library.
 
  Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of
  information fields that we can simply use for other languages like 
  Tajik and Afghan.
 
 
  So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond
 Microsoft -
  a big name.
 
 
 
  All the best,
  Omid
  __
Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET
  http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/
 
 
  Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI:
 
  Intel Lab's OCL (Open CLI Library)
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocl/
 
  Platform.NET http://sourceforge.net/projects/platformdotnet/
 
 
 
  Articles:
 
  Linux World - Bringing the CLI 

RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-09 Thread Omid K. Rad
I totally agree with you that the name Jalali keeps away all that
confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also
Shamsi/Khorshidi. But as far as I'm advised, the Jalali Calendar
refers to an era other than the Hejrie Shamsi which is in use today,
and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people
have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify
please?

 Jalali Calendar is such a cute name, not?
Yeah, and funny is the message a guy has commented on MSDN Longhorn
annotations for the Jalaali calendar:

Thank you 
This Calender Is A Good
Thank You Mr Jalali
Thank Bill

Doh!!

Omid


On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Humm, good point.  I was worried about Jalaali being used 
 instead of Jalali.  But now that you mention it, I almost 
 agree that one of Persian or Iranian calendar may suit 
 better. Well, we have the Gregorian and Julian calendar 
 suggesting Jalali, and we have Chinese and Japanese 
 suggesting Iranian, and we have Islamic and Hebrew 
 calendars suggesting Persian! Guys, can we decide on one 
 once now?  Humm, after finishing the sentence, I go back to 
 vote for Jalali!  As it avoid binding yet another meaning 
 to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't have to go on tell 
 everybody that this Farsi Calendar is the same as the 
 Persian Calendar or Iranian Calendar, which in turn used 
 to be known as Jalali Calendar or Jalaali Calendar by 
 MS...  Poof, Jalali Calendar is such a cute name, not?
 
 Oh, the main point, now that Jalaali is not in any standard 
 yet, perhaps you can request a name change from Jalaali to 
 Jalali.  Of course it's just my personal suggestion.
 
 later,
 --behdad
   behdad.org
 

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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-04 Thread Omid K. Rad
I was amazed when I got my Ukranian friend read www.ozodi.org texts.
He was actually reading Persian!!!

Omid


 --- Jon D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I'm not sure if you're already aware of this,  but 
 www.ozodi.org run by Radio Free Europe distributes these Tajik fonts:
 
 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf
 
 -Jon D.
 
 
 
 --- C Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Peter,
  
  Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can
  discuss it further off the
  list.  I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but
  TITUS may work. I'll
  have to check.  My particular project was for the
  web so even if we do
  find a font, it will boil down to the eternal
  question of whether to
  embed, use graphics or force the user to download
  the font (or some
  combination thereof.)
  
  -Connie
  
  On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:
  
   Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably)
  Code2000 by James Kass or
   (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to
  check the latter ones. I am
   quite certain that there are a couple of
  Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
   around, too.
  
   Peter
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
   To: Linguasoft
   Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
   Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo
  
  
   On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:
  
It's very easy to type Tajik using a Phonetic
  (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
keyboard.
  
   With which font though? I could only find hacked
  fonts.
  
   -Connie
  

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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-04 Thread C Bobroff
On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jon D. wrote:

 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
 http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf

Thanks, Jon.  I guess these are hacked Monaco and Times New Roman
although I didn't look too carefully.

Meanwhile, Peter has sent me a keyboard and wonderful documentation which
I'm still trying out.  It does look like MS Arial Unicode and TITUS  can
handle the few extra Tajik characters although both fonts are more about
function than appearance and not so practical for webuse. That's
why people resort to hacking, I suppose.

Still, they are a lot  better than nothing and maybe I can get back on the
project I'd shelved earlier. Too bad I didn't ask here earlier!

Thanks again for checking.
-Connie

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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-03 Thread Jon D.
I'm not sure if you're already aware of this,  but
www.ozodi.org run by Radio Free Europe distributes
these Tajik fonts:

http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf

-Jon D.



--- C Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Peter,
 
 Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can
 discuss it further off the
 list.  I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but
 TITUS may work. I'll
 have to check.  My particular project was for the
 web so even if we do
 find a font, it will boil down to the eternal
 question of whether to
 embed, use graphics or force the user to download
 the font (or some
 combination thereof.)
 
 -Connie
 
 On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:
 
  Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably)
 Code2000 by James Kass or
  (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to
 check the latter ones. I am
  quite certain that there are a couple of
 Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
  around, too.
 
  Peter
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
  To: Linguasoft
  Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
  Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo
 
 
  On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:
 
   It's very easy to type Tajik using a Phonetic
 (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
   keyboard.
 
  With which font though? I could only find hacked
 fonts.
 
  -Connie
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing





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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-01 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Fri, 2004-04-30 at 13:47, Linguasoft wrote:
 The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes d+zh to
 represent the sound of Perso-Arabic jeem. Similar as dj used in French
 transliteration of Arabic, etc.

I can't agree. The spelling is clearly  which you can see has
only six letters. No digraph for the sound:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language

roozbeh


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-05-01 Thread Linguasoft
So d+zh (U+0434 U+0436) is apparently a heritage from Russian, which does not have 
the U+04B7 glyph and therefore substitutes a digraph.

BTW, http://www.geonames.de/alphtz.html suggests U+01E7 as transliteration of U+04B7. 
So we have a few more renderings, i.e. toik (transliterated from Cyrillic Tajik) 
and tajik [or tojik?] (transliterated from Arabic Tajik).

Peter


-Original Message-
From: Roozbeh Pournader [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:45 AM
To: Linguasoft
Cc: 'PersianComputing'
Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo

On Fri, 2004-04-30 at 13:47, Linguasoft wrote:
 The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes d+zh to
 represent the sound of Perso-Arabic jeem. Similar as dj used in French
 transliteration of Arabic, etc.

I can't agree. The spelling is clearly  which you can see has
only six letters. No digraph for the sound:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language

roozbeh



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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-30 Thread C Bobroff
Peter,

Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can discuss it further off the
list.  I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but TITUS may work. I'll
have to check.  My particular project was for the web so even if we do
find a font, it will boil down to the eternal question of whether to
embed, use graphics or force the user to download the font (or some
combination thereof.)

-Connie

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

 Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) Code2000 by James Kass or
 (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to check the latter ones. I am
 quite certain that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
 around, too.

 Peter


 -Original Message-
 From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
 To: Linguasoft
 Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
 Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo


 On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

  It's very easy to type Tajik using a Phonetic (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
  keyboard.

 With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts.

 -Connie


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RE: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 20:05, C Bobroff wrote:
  About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about
  Afghan and Tajik languages.
 It's all one language, different conventions.

For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of
Arabic. ;)

roozbeh


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Re: IranL10nInfo

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff
 Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET

Omid,

Thanks and good idea.

Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data?  No one is looking out for
them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan.
There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take
FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to Hut, etc with no
attention to the different way the leap year is calculated making the
calendar useless.  (Luckily someone finally provided me with a trustworthy
off-line calendar.) Then I tried to type a paragraph in Tajik and the best
font I could find was a hacked Times New Roman which was unusable.  A side
benefit to taking the other Persians into consideration is that it
brings up issues of Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone
unnoticed.

Just a humble suggestion.

-Connie

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