Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Sina Ahmadian]

I think the best solution is to use the 24 hour clock when it's possible. 
This should become a standard in all printed documents (digital or paper).

The 12 hour clock can exist as a second choise. Instead of AM/PM, we can use 
Baamdaad/Shaamgaah, which have Persian origines, or Sobh/Shab. But when you 
think more about these choises and other similar terms (Sobh/Asr, Rooz/Shab, 
Ghabl Az Zoh/Bad Az Zohr, ...) none of them are completely compatible with 
12 hour clock. Just imagine "10:23 Baamdaad" for the morning or "10:55 Asr" 
and "10:55 Baaz Az Zohr" for the night. They don't make any sens!

Maybe it's better to follow the Microsoft's choise: Ghabl Az Zohr/Baad Az 
Zohr (B.Z/GH.Z) or Pish Az Zohr/Pas Az Zohr, where the second group cannot 
be abbreviated (P.Z/P.Z !!)

Another similarity between Persian and French! In French also there is no 
equivalent to AM/PM. They use always the 24 hour clock in printed stuff and 
the following rule in conversation:

00 To 12: matin (sobh)
12 To 17-19(depends on the season): après-midi (baad az zohr)
17-19 To 00: soir (shab)
Sina
Original Message Follows
From: "Ali A. Khanban" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: Persian Computing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:49:55 +0100
Thanks. BTW, in locale, I noticed that there is no "am" and "pm" for time, 
and it is only 24 hour time in Iran. I remember two words "baamdaam" and 
"ba'd az zohr" were used by radio/tv presenters most of the time. Of course 
people always use "ba'd az zohr", but rarely "baamdaad".

I think deleting 12 hour clock is not fair. We could use the current entries 
in AM&PM part of the locale in the following link, that you sent me.

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic
*language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR
(which is done partially by me.)
roozbeh
On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

Hi,
Have a look at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as long 
as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, though I 
still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:


Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.


Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* 
Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*

If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic 
script."

-Connie




--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A. Khanban]

Thanks. BTW, in locale, I noticed that there is no "am" and "pm" for 
time, and it is only 24 hour time in Iran. I remember two words 
"baamdaam" and "ba'd az zohr" were used by radio/tv presenters most of 
the time. Of course people always use "ba'd az zohr", but rarely "baamdaad".

I think deleting 12 hour clock is not fair. We could use the current 
entries in AM&PM part of the locale in the following link, that you sent me.

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic
*language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR
(which is done partially by me.)
roozbeh
On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
 

Hi,
Have a look at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:
   

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
  

   

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."
-Connie
 

 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic
*language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at:

http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR

(which is done partially by me.)

roozbeh

On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Have a look at:
> http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
> 
> Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
> long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
> though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".
> 
> Best
> -ali-
> 
> C Bobroff wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
> >think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
> >
> >Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
> >just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
> >script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
> >
> >If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."
> >
> >-Connie
> >  
> >

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:39, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.

I believe national requirements of a government counts, whoever the
author.

roozbeh



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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,
Have a look at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
   

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."
-Connie
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.

Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*

If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:28, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale.
   

There doesn't exist a standardized locale for Urdu (or any non-standard
one I may know of), but Pashto has one (which I helped prepare and is
approved by their ministry of communication), and calls the script
Arabic.
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 01:34, C Bobroff wrote:
> I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
> Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
> that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to
> refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).

I'm sure Michael Everson was *at least* talking about linguistic
circles. Unicode didn't exist in 19th century, so he could only be
talking about linguistic usage.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Connie,

I think the locale spec indeed aims to differentiate our script
from Japanese and Latin; just that.  A locale spec is designed to
be coded into software, which ain't have no sense of languages.
All it cares about is that the Arabic script uses Arabic shaping
rules and the 06xx block of Unicode characters; period.

behdad who's getting tired of this discussion ;)


On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> Hi Michael again after a long time,
> You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale
> requirements* not unicode level encoding.
> You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode
> purposes.
>
> At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian
> is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the
> Perso-Arabic
> script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is
> written in the Arabic script. Various North African
> languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script.
>
> Please don't consider the letter "Beh." Think about the Yeh, the Keheh,
> numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting.  I'm not
> talking about calligraphic styles here.  It is ok to just say "Arabic
> script" if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But
> at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect
> the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which
> it was derived.
>
> Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be
> assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info
> in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal
> audience,  (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that
> modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic.
> I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts
> will want / need to consult this document.
>
> Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why I"m not
> replying to you point-by-point.
>
> -Connie
>
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> > >I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
> > >expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
> > >right here?
> > >
> > >On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
> > >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> > >>
> > >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
> > >>  script."
> >
> > Not since the 19th century.
> >
> > >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> > >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
> > >  > applies to the Arabic language.
> >
> > This is not correct.
> >
> > What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe.
> > It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this
> > does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different
> > characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian,
> > Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek,
> > Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them.
> > It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial,
> > medial, and final form which connects to other letters.
> >
> > Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of
> > styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all
> > varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and
> > because of that, it is correct to speak of only one "script".
> > --
> > Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
> >
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Well, with all respect, I'm afraid Arash's comment is not to be
relied upon.  Because I'm sure the same linguists everyone here
refers to will prefer "Persian" to "Farsi".

behdad

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> (I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.)
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Arash Zeini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Connie Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
>
> In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> > >
> > >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in
> > >> "Perso-Arabic script."
> >
> > Not since the 19th century.
> >
> > >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> > >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script"
> > > only > applies to the Arabic language.
> >
> > This is not correct.
>
> Hi Connie,
>
> This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can
> not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the
> ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list.
>
> I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
> Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
> that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to
> refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).
>
> Greetings,
> Arash
>
>
>
>
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>

--behdad
  behdad.org

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

[C Bobroff]

(I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.)

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arash Zeini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Connie Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote:

> >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> >
> >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in
> >> "Perso-Arabic script."
>
> Not since the 19th century.
>
> >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script"
> > only > applies to the Arabic language.
>
> This is not correct.

Hi Connie,

This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can
not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the
ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list.

I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to
refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).

Greetings,
Arash




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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

Hi Michael again after a long time,
You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale
requirements* not unicode level encoding.
You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode
purposes.

At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian
is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the
Perso-Arabic
script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is
written in the Arabic script. Various North African
languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script.

Please don't consider the letter "Beh." Think about the Yeh, the Keheh,
numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting.  I'm not
talking about calligraphic styles here.  It is ok to just say "Arabic
script" if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But
at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect
the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which
it was derived.

Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be
assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info
in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal
audience,  (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that
modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic.
I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts
will want / need to consult this document.

Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why I"m not
replying to you point-by-point.

-Connie

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote:

> At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> >I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
> >expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
> >right here?
> >
> >On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
> >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> >>
> >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
> >>  script."
>
> Not since the 19th century.
>
> >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
> >  > applies to the Arabic language.
>
> This is not correct.
>
> What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe.
> It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this
> does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different
> characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian,
> Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek,
> Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them.
> It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial,
> medial, and final form which connects to other letters.
>
> Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of
> styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all
> varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and
> because of that, it is correct to speak of only one "script".
> --
> Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
>
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Michael Everson]

At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
right here?
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
 > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
 No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
 script."
Not since the 19th century.
 > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
 > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
 > applies to the Arabic language.
This is not correct.
What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe. 
It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this 
does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different 
characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian, 
Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek, 
Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them. 
It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial, 
medial, and final form which connects to other letters.

Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of 
styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all 
varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and 
because of that, it is correct to speak of only one "script".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
right here?

roozbeh

On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> 
> > > Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
> >
> > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> 
> No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
> script." You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
> applies to the Arabic language.  Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft
> will know what you mean if you just say "khatt-e `arabi" however, I
> recommend you put "Perso-Arabic script" (in English)  or "modified Arabic
> script"  so that if the draft gets translated into some other language,
> the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make
> its way back into the translation.
> 
> -Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:47, C Bobroff wrote:
> There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.

Please explain the difference.

> You are giving incomplete and wrong information.

No, we are not. Reread the text, please, and reconsider that we are
recommending a certain practice for use in visual representation of
names in *computer applications* (and clearly not on book titles).

> And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
> now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
> to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
> to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.

I'm not fixing this, honestly. I may add and endnote or a footnote, but
I'm not going to change the recommendation, *unless you convince me*.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> > Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
>
> Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.

No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
script." You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
applies to the Arabic language.  Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft
will know what you mean if you just say "khatt-e `arabi" however, I
recommend you put "Perso-Arabic script" (in English)  or "modified Arabic
script"  so that if the draft gets translated into some other language,
the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make
its way back into the translation.

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>  Many
> other things may also be optional (like how to write "ordibehesht",
> "zi-hajje", or "hejdah"), but we are only allowing one,

There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.
You are giving incomplete and wrong information.
And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.

> > "all the time". Sorry!
>
> Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
> author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.

Well, "all the time" does not, in fact, mean "all the time" in English.
It just means "all the time." You know, a synonym for "sometimes!"
Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin?

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:28, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
> and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale.

There doesn't exist a standardized locale for Urdu (or any non-standard
one I may know of), but Pashto has one (which I helped prepare and is
approved by their ministry of communication), and calls the script
Arabic.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:03, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?

BTW, while "khatte laatin" is OK, "khatte laatini" is preferred.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 20:31, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called 
> Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?

Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 19:50, C Bobroff wrote:
> You can not specify one way in this case with personal names when it is
> optional.

Connie, you are not understand the purpose of the specification. Many
other things may also be optional (like how to write "ordibehesht",
"zi-hajje", or "hejdah"), but we are only allowing one, only because if
two applications want to conform to the specification, they have
(almost) the same behavior.

> You don't have to require or forbid, you may say "acceptable" or "common".

We are not describing the practice. We are recommending one option over
another. A specification, or a standard, does require and forbid.

> "all the time". Sorry!

Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

I just got this calendar from Iran in the mail:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/cal.jpg

I guess this  orientation is more popular than I thought. I find
it too hard to use since I'm used to the more common arrangement (i.e.
across the top and then top to bottom) but obviously people do like and
prefer this other way.

Good thing you included both in the draft!

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,
Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Well, it depends on your point of view.  Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?  It's not
about language or font-style.  And in computer software that's
what really matters.
 

I brought up Pashto and Ordu cases, because they are more relevant to 
our alphabet.

Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.
 

Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale. If it is 
common among all these scripts to call themselves Arabic (the case for 
Latin-based scripts), then we should do that, too. Otherwise, we should 
call it "Persian Script" and add some information (Arabic-based nature 
of the script and so on) in a note.

Best
-ali-
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Hi,
The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the
constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian).
Look at
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three
I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as
Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called
Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
   

I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
 http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
 Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
 PO Box 13445-389
 Tehran, Iran
Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
proprietary software.
The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
in the funding.
I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
Roozbeh Pournader
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
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--behdad
 behdad.org
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi all,

Well, it depends on your point of view.  Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?  It's not
about language or font-style.  And in computer software that's
what really matters.

Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.

behdad

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the
> constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian).
> Look at
> http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
> http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three
>
> I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as
> Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called
> Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
>
> Best
> -ali-
>
> Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
> >specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
> >to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
> >the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
> >
> >   http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
> >
> >Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
> >get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
> >maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
> >to us at the following address:
> >
> >   Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> >   PO Box 13445-389
> >   Tehran, Iran
> >
> >Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
> >documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
> >license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
> >able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
> >conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
> >copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
> >do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
> >information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
> >proprietary software.
> >
> >The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
> >Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
> >Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
> >in the funding.
> >
> >I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
> >Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
> >community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
> >main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
> >
> >Roozbeh Pournader
> >Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> >
> >
> >___
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> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >
> >
>
>

--behdad
  behdad.org
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,
The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the 
constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian). 
Look at
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three

I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as 
Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called 
Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
  http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
  Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
  PO Box 13445-389
  Tehran, Iran
Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
proprietary software.
The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
in the funding.
I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
Roozbeh Pournader
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ordak D. Coward]

Roozbeh,

I have a few  issues.

A minor one is that nobody calls the script "khatt-e arabi". I agree
that in English it is called "Arabic Script", or as I learnt it here
the first time, "Perso-Arabic Script", but we shall not translate the
words one by one into Persian if it does not convey the message. I do
not know the correct name in Persian for the script, but probably if
we trace the name of scripts from "khatt-e koofi" to the current
script, we reach at the correct name for the current script in
Persian. I think it has something to do with "Naskh". Maybe I do not
know the meaning of words 'script' and 'khat'.

The second issue is the use of 24 hour time. I am trying to remember
the way Radio announced time every hour, specially before the 14:00
and 20:00 News. I do not remember them saying "saa'at bist, be
mashrooh-e akhbaar tavajjoh konid". Furthermore, most people are not
used to the 24 hour time, although they can handle it. The usage of
24th hour for midnight was a little strange to me as well. But I guess
it is correct.

The draft recommends certain one character abbreviations for names of
months in different calendars for using in tables. I believe this
recommendation will lead to problems where an application displays a
one month calendar with the ambiguous abbreviation for the name of
month. Either the usage of such abbreviations should be better
described, or remove them from the draft. Another option is to invent
unambiguous abbreviations. Like: Ù Ø Ø Ø Ù Ø Ù Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø  or using
two/three letter abbreviations like: ÙØ ØØ ØØ ØÛ ÙØ ÙÙ ØØ ØØ ØÛ ØÙ 
ØØ.
Although I believe that this draft is not the place to invent
anything, and I suggest removing such abbreviations from draft.

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:58:19 +0430, Roozbeh Pournader
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
> specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
> to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
> the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
> 
>   http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
> 
> Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
> get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
> maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
> to us at the following address:
> 
>   Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
>   PO Box 13445-389
>   Tehran, Iran
> 
> Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
> documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
> license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
> able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
> conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
> copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
> do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
> information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
> proprietary software.
> 
> The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
> Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
> Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
> in the funding.
> 
> I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
> Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
> community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
> main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
> 
> Roozbeh Pournader
> Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> 
> ___
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>

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> The draft is trying to specify *the one way* (or, well, *a* single way).
You can not specify one way in this case with personal names when it is
optional.
(Except names ending in long /-aa/.)

> Software localization for Persian may not be a great medium to celebrate
> diversity with.
I understand.

> So the draft may either require it, or forbid it. We preferred to forbid
> it.
You don't have to require or forbid, you may say "acceptable" or "common".

> >  I see that written, especially
> > for authors on book titles all time.
> "all time"?!

"all the time". Sorry!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote:
> > No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??
>
> Yes. Why are you wondering?
Never mind! I don't want to appear as if complaining!

> > And my next
> > question is going to be, "when?"
>
> I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking.

Ok, I think that's as precise as we're going to get for now. I admit, I
hear it more in slow, deliberate, formal speeches than in everyday
conversation. (Besides Behdad's example of usage in response to "which?")
And it's definitely seen in written form, especially on book covers.
I think I better scan one to keep on hand!


> > That should keep you busy for a while!
> You were wrong. ;)
Yes, I guess so!
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:27, C Bobroff wrote:
> In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
> mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
> that's a new rule or the draft is wrong.

The draft is trying to specify *the one way* (or, well, *a* single way).
Software localization for Persian may not be a great medium to celebrate
diversity with.

So the draft may either require it, or forbid it. We preferred to forbid
it.

>  I see that written, especially
> for authors on book titles all time.

"all time"?!

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote:
> No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??

Yes. Why are you wondering?

> Do you agree that
> sometimes you say, "behdaad-e esfahbod" and other times you say, "behdaad
> esfahbod?" (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.)

Yes.

> And my next
> question is going to be, "when?"

I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking.

> That should keep you busy for a while!

You were wrong. ;)

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:
>
> > We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
> There is a big difference between *we never write* and
> *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
> certain situations.
> In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
> mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
> that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
> for authors on book titles all time.

No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong.  They *never*
write that in Iran.  You may write "mohsen-e rezaai" only for
example to distinguish it from "mohsen-e rafsanjaani", but this
way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different
phrases, not one.

> -Connie

--behdad
  behdad.org
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Peyman]

I meant "we don't normally write Ezafe". In language no prescription should be imposed on people. 
The draft is not wrong. It is the rule of ortography not the spoken language. In spoken langauge the Ezafe is pronounced wherever the phonological requirements applies.
 
PeymanC Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:> We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;There is a big difference between *we never write* and*we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh incertain situations.In this case, if the draft says says that one may notmark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then eitherthat's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especiallyfor authors on book titles all time.-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> I tried doing it in the Academy's style,
It's hard to keep up with their whims!

No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??

> Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at
> all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a
> footnote.

FYI from the Oxford English Dictionary:
pronounce, verb.
I.2. To declare aloud, proclaim, announce, make known;...
II. 5.  To give utterance to; to utter, speak, articulate (a word or
words); b. With reference to the mode of pronunciation of a letter, syllable,
word, or language

I'm only using "pronounce" as synonym of "say" (I.2) and you're thinking
"talaffoz." (II.5)

> If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way
> ;)

Well, you were very helpful with the "ghash-gir" topic so what is
your problem here?  Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that
sometimes you say, "behdaad-e esfahbod" and other times you say, "behdaad
esfahbod?" (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next
question is going to be, "when?"

That should keep you busy for a while!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

> We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
There is a big difference between *we never write* and
*we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
certain situations.
In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
for authors on book titles all time.

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:15, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Th attachment should be a type, I guess.

Yes, it is a typo.

> Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and 
> not to this list?

That means we appreciate it if it is sent to that email address. You're
welcome to discuss any on-topic matter on the list of course.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
  http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
 

Th attachment should be a type, I guess.
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
  Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
  PO Box 13445-389
  Tehran, Iran
Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and 
not to this list?

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 07:41, C Bobroff wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> 
> >http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
> 
> Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
> Hamzeh's!

It's the same old one. Roozbeh Pournader himself.

> But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
> ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

I tried doing it in the Academy's style, since we referring to the
Persian Academy's style as normative. I personally hate that, and so do
most of FarsiWeb staff, but we needed to be compliant here. Call that an
experience...

The Academy's style only puts "kasre-ye ezaafe"s when there is a clear
ambiguity. And it writes "-haa" without a ZWNJ.

> Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
> given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
> "Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? I
> believe it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there between
> given and family name. Please inform me.

Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at
all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a
footnote. At the same time, the Academy doesn't like the Kasras, so...

If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way
;)

> By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
> it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
> the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
> from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
> in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

I don't know what may be the problem. I would be enlightened if you tell
about PDF tricks you may know that can solve that kind of problems.

roozbeh


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Hooman Mehr]

Correction: Found the Reader!
I tried again to find a Persian compatible Acrobat Reader and this time 
I found it. It is separate from the normal Acrobat Reader distribution 
(I don't know why):

Go to: 
Select: English (Middle Eastern)
Select your platform (It is available for Windows and Mac OS X) and the 
rest is as it should be.

Connie, try it with the PDFs that you have to see which one works. Also 
can you come up with a cleaner version of this conversation an put it 
on your pages? If you need further clarification let me know.

- Hooman Mehr
On Jun 8, 2004, at 9:54 AM, Hooman Mehr wrote:
On Jun 8, 2004, at 7:41 AM, C Bobroff wrote:
By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian 
and
it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and 
all
the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running 
backwards
from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It 
ends up
in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!
Regarding PDFs:
A PDF file only stores display glyphs (not characters) in left to 
right visual order and by definition can't do anything else. (It is 
intended to capture exact printout after all processing on the text is 
done.) For this reason, text extraction and search in PDFs in 
Arabic/Persian/etc is always a bit tricky. Although good Fonts and PDF 
viewer software can conceal that inherent complexity.

In order for a PDF to be well formed for text search and extraction, 
font glyph names should conform to the old (90's) version of Adobe 
Glyph List glyph naming standard. Also, you should use a recent 
release of Acrobat Distiller (Not the PDFWriter virtual printer 
driver) to create the PDFs. This may involve additional complications 
such as first saving to a PostScript print file. PDFWriter can't work 
reliably because of the way Windows printer driver architecture works. 
So, don't expect PDFWriter to be fixed until say after Longhorn in 
2006.

The latest version of Acrobat Reader is somewhat improved in this 
regard, but to get something that works properly with well-formed 
PDFs, you will need Adobe Acrobat ME (Middle-East Edition). You can 
find more information on Adobe Central Europe/Middle East site: 
. They are claiming 
that the generic Reader 6 should search or copy text but actually only 
the 6.0 ME Acrobat Standard and Pro work properly and they are 
expensive if you just want to search or copy text...

By the way, one of the potential places that we need a project Defined 
in FarsiLinux project is a Persian compatible PDF generator and 
viewer.

- Hooman Mehr
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Hooman Mehr]

On Jun 8, 2004, at 7:41 AM, C Bobroff wrote:
By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian 
and
it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and 
all
the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It 
ends up
in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!
Regarding PDFs:
A PDF file only stores display glyphs (not characters) in left to right 
visual order and by definition can't do anything else. (It is intended 
to capture exact printout after all processing on the text is done.) 
For this reason, text extraction and search in PDFs in 
Arabic/Persian/etc is always a bit tricky. Although good Fonts and PDF 
viewer software can conceal that inherent complexity.

In order for a PDF to be well formed for text search and extraction, 
font glyph names should conform to the old (90's) version of Adobe 
Glyph List glyph naming standard. Also, you should use a recent release 
of Acrobat Distiller (Not the PDFWriter virtual printer driver) to 
create the PDFs. This may involve additional complications such as 
first saving to a PostScript print file. PDFWriter can't work reliably 
because of the way Windows printer driver architecture works. So, don't 
expect PDFWriter to be fixed until say after Longhorn in 2006.

The latest version of Acrobat Reader is somewhat improved in this 
regard, but to get something that works properly with well-formed PDFs, 
you will need Adobe Acrobat ME (Middle-East Edition). You can find more 
information on Adobe Central Europe/Middle East site: 
. They are claiming 
that the generic Reader 6 should search or copy text but actually only 
the 6.0 ME Acrobat Standard and Pro work properly and they are 
expensive if you just want to search or copy text...

By the way, one of the potential places that we need a project Defined 
in FarsiLinux project is a Persian compatible PDF generator and viewer.

- Hooman Mehr
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Peyman]

Hi,
 
We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; however, we pronounce them. In proper noun phrases, we use Ezafe in spoken language if there is one. e.g. Mohsen -e- Mohamadi. Ezafe in the form of Kasreh is kind of Persianizer in our language. We use it only in spoken language in noun phrases as well as in place of the linking verb (ast). e.g. hava khub -e (the weather is good). 
 
Regarding the ZWNJ, I recently processed a corpus of 5 million Persian words. There were 3200 occurances of ZWNJ in compound verbs, nouns and inflected nouns. This 3200 words were among 8 unique words extracted from the text corpus.
For your information the single letter word /va/ in Persian had a frequency of 43000 in my corpus which was the most frequent word in our language.
 
PeymanC Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:> http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdfCongratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic toHamzeh's!But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why noZWNJ on plural -Ha's?Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh aftergiven names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with"Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? Ibelieve it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there betweengiven and family name. Please inform me.By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian andit was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and allthe letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwardsfrom left to right. I can!
't seem
 to copy and paste with yours. It ends upin garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!-Connie___PersianComputing mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
>
> Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
> Hamzeh's!
> But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
> ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

Well, Roozbeh should give the answer, but my guess:  It's typeset
in Persian Academy's orthography.

> Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
> given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
> "Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? I
> believe it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there between
> given and family name. Please inform me.

No, Kasreh Ezafe is neither used in written names, nor in spoken
formally.

> By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
> it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
> the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
> from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
> in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

No idea.

> -Connie

--behdad
  behdad.org
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
Hamzeh's!
But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
"Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? I
believe it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there between
given and family name. Please inform me.

By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Thanks a lot Roozbeh for making the release.

Just the first point to discuss:  People use "sadom-e saaniye",
not "milli saanie".  You can hear it in IRI news too.

Also, "tak tak" should be written using ZWNJ, no matter what
orthography regulations you use.

More later.
behdad


On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
> specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
> to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
> the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
>
>http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
>
> Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
> get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
> maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
> to us at the following address:
>
>Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
>PO Box 13445-389
>Tehran, Iran
>
> Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
> documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
> license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
> able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
> conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
> copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
> do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
> information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
> proprietary software.
>
> The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
> Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
> Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
> in the funding.
>
> I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
> Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
> community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
> main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
>
> Roozbeh Pournader
> Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
>
>
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>

--behdad
  behdad.org
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