Re: [GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-25 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 02/25/2016 01:58 AM, Karsten Hilbert wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 04:12:22PM -0800, Adrian Klaver wrote: This works fine, the application (GNUmed) ensures INSERTS and UPDATES do the right thing with .is_ongoing and .ts_end. Now the following sequence happens: - insert row with .is_ongoin

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-25 Thread Karsten Hilbert
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 05:24:44PM -0700, David G. Johnston wrote: > ​Then you must record the "INSERT/UPDATE time" into the table, as a > constant, and refer to that value instead of having "now()" which happens > to be correct at the time of the insert/update but is not correct at any > future p

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-25 Thread Karsten Hilbert
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 04:12:22PM -0800, Adrian Klaver wrote: > >This works fine, the application (GNUmed) ensures INSERTS and > >UPDATES do the right thing with .is_ongoing and .ts_end. > > > >Now the following sequence happens: > > > >- insert row with .is_ongoing=true and .ts_end=tomorrow() >

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-24 Thread David G. Johnston
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Karsten Hilbert wrote: > I have noticed another problem during pg_upgrade on a 9.1 > cluster with 9.4 as the target. > > Consider this sort of table > > create table therapy ( > pk serial primary key, > description text, >

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-24 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 02/24/2016 02:12 PM, Karsten Hilbert wrote: I have noticed another problem during pg_upgrade on a 9.1 cluster with 9.4 as the target. Consider this sort of table create table therapy ( pk serial primary key, description text, is_ongoing

[GENERAL] check constraint problem during COPY while pg_upgrade-ing

2016-02-24 Thread Karsten Hilbert
I have noticed another problem during pg_upgrade on a 9.1 cluster with 9.4 as the target. Consider this sort of table create table therapy ( pk serial primary key, description text, is_ongoing boolean not null, ts_end timesta

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint and at least two rows

2015-11-03 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 11/03/2015 04:23 PM, Dane Foster wrote: On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 7:09 PM, David G. Johnston mailto:david.g.johns...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Dane Foster mailto:studdu...@gmail.com>>wrote: Hello, I have a design/modelling puzzle/problem. I'm trying

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint and at least two rows

2015-11-03 Thread Dane Foster
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 7:09 PM, David G. Johnston < david.g.johns...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Dane Foster wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I have a design/modelling puzzle/problem. I'm trying to model a series of >> events. So I have two tables w/ a parent child relationship. T

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint and at least two rows

2015-11-03 Thread David G. Johnston
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Dane Foster wrote: > Hello, > > I have a design/modelling puzzle/problem. I'm trying to model a series of > events. So I have two tables w/ a parent child relationship. The child > table has the rule/constraint/etc that for every row in the parent table > there mus

[GENERAL] Check constraint and at least two rows

2015-11-03 Thread Dane Foster
Hello, I have a design/modelling puzzle/problem. I'm trying to model a series of events. So I have two tables w/ a parent child relationship. The child table has the rule/constraint/etc that for every row in the parent table there must be at least 2 rows in the child because a series must have at

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-26 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 12/26/2014 05:18 AM, Andreas Ulbrich wrote: On 25.12.2014 23:50, Adrian Klaver wrote: On 12/25/2014 11:21 AM, Andreas Ulbrich wrote: Hey. In the first part I connect to testdb (the remote db). Here I create the schema 'andreas'. That the search_path correct is, shows the output of the pgpls

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-26 Thread Andreas Ulbrich
On 25.12.2014 23:50, Adrian Klaver wrote: On 12/25/2014 11:21 AM, Andreas Ulbrich wrote: Hey. In the first part I connect to testdb (the remote db). Here I create the schema 'andreas'. That the search_path correct is, shows the output of the pgplsql version. Yeah, that was a false alarm on my

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 12/25/2014 11:21 AM, Andreas Ulbrich wrote: Hey. In the first part I connect to testdb (the remote db). Here I create the schema 'andreas'. That the search_path correct is, shows the output of the pgplsql version. Yeah, that was a false alarm on my part. Forgot about $user in the path. Th

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Andreas Ulbrich
Hey. In the first part I connect to testdb (the remote db). Here I create the schema 'andreas'. That the search_path correct is, shows the output of the pgplsql version. Then, in the second part, I'm postgres (this db ist empty since compiling). The usermapping says, I wont to be andreas@test

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 12/25/2014 09:27 AM, Tom Lane wrote: Andreas Ulbrich writes: Questions: Wy is the check constraint function in a select called? The search_path seams not to be set for the SQL function, is this behavior correct? Like Adrian, I'm a bit suspicious whether this test script is creating the obj

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Tom Lane
Andreas Ulbrich writes: > Questions: > Wy is the check constraint function in a select called? > The search_path seams not to be set for the SQL function, is this > behavior correct? Like Adrian, I'm a bit suspicious whether this test script is creating the objects in the schema you think it is.

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Adrian Klaver
On 12/25/2014 03:31 AM, Andreas Ulbrich wrote: Salvete! I've made the following observation: I have a foreign table (postgres_fdw) to a remote table B. On the remote table is a check constraint using a SQL-function with access to an other table. In the remote DB both tables and the check-functi

[GENERAL] Check constraint on foreign table using SQL function

2014-12-25 Thread Andreas Ulbrich
Salvete! I've made the following observation: I have a foreign table (postgres_fdw) to a remote table B. On the remote table is a check constraint using a SQL-function with access to an other table. In the remote DB both tables and the check-function resist in a seperate schema "andreas". Th

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Alberto Cabello Sánchez
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 15:53:48 -0600 CS_DBA wrote: > Not sure yet (new client)... for now they simply want to force the > template column to be a valid cust_id, if it is not null... It seems to be a different version of the textbook exercice involving EMPLOYEE_ID and MANAGER_ID. -- Alberto Cabel

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread David Johnston
Based on your first question a customer id itself is not a valid designator; you have to specify (or link) in the group as well. Not tested but should work: FOREIGN KEY (template, group) REFERENCES customer (cust_id, group) Depends on whether you want to allow cross-group associations if you nee

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
On 04/08/2014 04:08 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:53 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:41 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:36 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:31 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: O

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Rob Sargent
On 04/08/2014 03:53 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:41 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:36 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:31 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
On 04/08/2014 03:41 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:36 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:31 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: O

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Rob Sargent
On 04/08/2014 03:36 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:31 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
On 04/08/2014 03:31 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer (

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Rob Sargent
On 04/08/2014 03:26 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
On 04/08/2014 03:17 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null primary key, cust_group_id int

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Rob Sargent
On 04/08/2014 03:09 PM, CS_DBA wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null primary key, cust_group_id integer not null, group_account_idinteger no

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
On 04/08/2014 02:58 PM, Rob Sargent wrote: On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null primary key, cust_group_id integer not null, group_account_idinteger not null, cust_name varchar

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread Rob Sargent
On 04/08/2014 02:51 PM, CS_DBA wrote: Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null primary key, cust_group_id integer not null, group_account_idinteger not null, cust_name varchar not null, ... ) we want to force the cust_

[GENERAL] check constraint question

2014-04-08 Thread CS_DBA
Hi All we have a table like so: customer ( cust_id integer not null primary key, cust_group_id integer not null, group_account_idinteger not null, cust_name varchar not null, ... ) we want to force the cust_group_id to be unique across all group

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint on insert but not delete

2010-11-04 Thread Richard Broersma
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Gauthier, Dave wrote: > Is there a way to require that a check constraint be checked on insert but > not update?    Worth knowing is that my check constraint runs a PLPgsql proc > which returns a yes/no kinf of flag which the constraint proper checks. I think by de

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint on insert but not delete

2010-11-04 Thread Vick Khera
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Gauthier, Dave wrote: > Is there a way to require that a check constraint be checked on insert but > not update?    Worth knowing is that my check constraint runs a PLPgsql proc > which returns a yes/no kinf of flag which the constraint proper checks. Use an expl

[GENERAL] check constraint on insert but not delete

2010-11-04 Thread Gauthier, Dave
This is a longshot, but here goes... Is there a way to require that a check constraint be checked on insert but not update?Worth knowing is that my check constraint runs a PLPgsql proc which returns a yes/no kinf of flag which the constraint proper checks. Thanks !

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK constraint fails when it's not supposed to

2009-08-04 Thread Tom Lane
Richard Yen writes: > When I run my update, it fails: >> tii=# begin; update only "public"."m_class" set date_end='2009-09-03 >> 05:38:24.030331-07',term_length='177 days 17:59:09.868431' where >> id='2652020'; >> BEGIN >> ERROR: new row for relation "m_class" violates check constraint >> "end_wi

[GENERAL] CHECK constraint fails when it's not supposed to

2009-08-04 Thread Richard Yen
Hi All, I encountered an odd issue regarding check constraints complaining when they're not really violated. For this particular machine, I am running 8.3.7, but on a machine running 8.3.5, it seems to have succeeded. I also upgraded a third machine from 8.3.5 to 8.3.7, and the query succeeded (

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2008-01-25 Thread Gregory Stark
"Tim Rupp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > where start_time >= '2008-01-01'::date AND start_time < '2008-01-10'::date > > should give the same rows as > > where start_time >= '2008-01-01'::date AND end_time <= '2008-01-09'::date I think you'll need to do the same thing to the constraints as well. Y

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2008-01-24 Thread Tim Rupp
On Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM, Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Tim Rupp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > ... a bunch of inherited tables that have the following constraint > > > CHECK (start_time >= '2008-01-01'::date AND end_time < '2008-01-01'::date) > > > and when i do the same query (as in the

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint question

2008-01-24 Thread Tom Lane
"Tim Rupp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > ... a bunch of inherited tables that have the following constraint > CHECK (start_time >= '2008-01-01'::date AND end_time < '2008-01-01'::date) > and when i do the same query (as in the documentation) on the table, I > get a bunch of sequential scans in th

[GENERAL] check constraint question

2008-01-24 Thread Tim Rupp
Hi list, I was looking for a bit of clarification on a check constraint that I have on some tables. I was following the example in the partitioning documentation http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/interactive/ddl-partitioning.html And got it to work, but when I tried to apply the same idea to my

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Rich Shepard
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Dann Corbit wrote: For postal addressing, this is a really good reference site: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html Thank you. Frank did/does an outstanding job with Kermit, and that's a very useful language for serial communications among data collecting devices a

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Dann Corbit
For postal addressing, this is a really good reference site: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Dann Corbit
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:pgsql-general- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Shepard > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:42 AM > To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table > >

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Michael Glaesemann
On May 1, 2007, at 12:41 , Rich Shepard wrote: I've seen the syntax for using a lookup table in a CHECK() constraint, but I cannot find a reference to it. It's not in Section 5.3.1 of the 8.2 docs. I'm not sure I follow. Generally if one has a column the value of which belongs to a lim

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Rich Shepard
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote: You could use a function, or a foreign key. Josh, The foreign key approach will do nicely. Thanks, Rich -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D. |The Environmental Permitting Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.| Accelerator(T

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread A. Kretschmer
am Tue, dem 01.05.2007, um 10:41:44 -0700 mailte Rich Shepard folgendes: > I've seen the syntax for using a lookup table in a CHECK() constraint, but > I cannot find a reference to it. It's not in Section 5.3.1 of the 8.2 docs. > > Specifically, I want to reference a table of ISO 2-letter cod

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Richard Broersma Jr
--- Rich Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I've seen the syntax for using a lookup table in a CHECK() constraint, but > I cannot find a reference to it. It's not in Section 5.3.1 of the 8.2 docs. > >Specifically, I want to reference a table of ISO 2-letter codes for US > states and Can

Re: [GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Joshua D. Drake
Rich Shepard wrote: I've seen the syntax for using a lookup table in a CHECK() constraint, but I cannot find a reference to it. It's not in Section 5.3.1 of the 8.2 docs. Specifically, I want to reference a table of ISO 2-letter codes for US states and Canadian provinces/territories in a ta

[GENERAL] CHECK() Constraint on Column Using Lookup Table

2007-05-01 Thread Rich Shepard
I've seen the syntax for using a lookup table in a CHECK() constraint, but I cannot find a reference to it. It's not in Section 5.3.1 of the 8.2 docs. Specifically, I want to reference a table of ISO 2-letter codes for US states and Canadian provinces/territories in a table with name and addr

Re: [GENERAL] Check Constraint problem

2005-07-01 Thread Michael Schmidt
The solutions provided by Mr. Glaeserman and Mr. Lane worked perfectly.  So that's how NULL works!    Thanks so much for the help.   

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint problem

2005-06-30 Thread Tom Lane
"Michael Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > ALTER TABLE "ClinData" ADD CONSTRAINT "Control_Score" CHECK > ((("Control_Score_M" IS NULL) AND ("Control_Score_SD" IS NULL) ) OR > (("Control_Score_M" IS NOT NULL) AND ("Control_Score_SD" >= 0.0))) > This statement executes okay. It prevents Cont

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint problem

2005-06-30 Thread Michael Glaesemann
On Jul 1, 2005, at 12:04 PM, Michael Schmidt wrote: The constraint statement: ALTER TABLE "ClinData" ADD CONSTRAINT "Control_Score" CHECK ((("Control_Score_M" IS NULL) AND ("Control_Score_SD" IS NULL) ) OR (("Control_Score_M" IS NOT NULL) AND ("Control_Score_SD" >= 0.0))) This statement execu

[GENERAL] Check constraint problem

2005-06-30 Thread Michael Schmidt
New to PostgreSQL and hoping for some help with a constraint I've been struggling with for a could of days.  The table includes means and standard deviations.  They should either both be null or (mean any value and standard deviation >= 0)   The constraint statement:   ALTER TABLE "ClinData"

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Stephan Szabo
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Richard Huxton wrote: > On Wednesday 17 March 2004 12:03, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > I have a "comment" field in a table that I want populated if another field > > has a certain value. Is it possible to set a check constraint for this? > > > > Example: > > Let's say we have fi

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Francisco Reyes
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Stephan Szabo wrote: > Actually, shouldn't a table level check constraint be able to do this with > something like: > check (purchase_type!=3 or comment is not null) That worked Stephan. Gregory. I think yours would work too. Saw Stephans answer and tested before I saw your

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 12:03:04 +, Francisco Reyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a "comment" field in a table that I want populated if another field > has a certain value. Is it possible to set a check constraint for this? > > Example: > Let's say we have fields > Purchase_type smalli

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Gregory Wood
I have a "comment" field in a table that I want populated if another field has a certain value. Is it possible to set a check constraint for this? Example: Let's say we have fields Purchase_type smallint check(purchase_type <4) comment varchar I need a check rule to something like (pseudo cod

Re: [GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Richard Huxton
On Wednesday 17 March 2004 12:03, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I have a "comment" field in a table that I want populated if another field > has a certain value. Is it possible to set a check constraint for this? > > Example: > Let's say we have fields > Purchase_type smallint check(purchase_type <4) >

[GENERAL] Check constraint

2004-03-17 Thread Francisco Reyes
I have a "comment" field in a table that I want populated if another field has a certain value. Is it possible to set a check constraint for this? Example: Let's say we have fields Purchase_type smallint check(purchase_type <4) comment varchar I need a check rule to something like (pseudo c

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint

2000-12-18 Thread Martin A. Marques
El Lun 18 Dic 2000 12:43, Wade D. Oberpriller escribió: > You should be able to do the following: > > CREATE TABLE table1 ( > field1 INTEGER CHECK ((field1 >= 0) AND (field1 <= 10)) > ); Thanks!!! Didn't know that! -- System Administration: It's a dirty job, but someone told I had to do i

Re: [GENERAL] check constraint

2000-12-18 Thread Wade D. Oberpriller
You should be able to do the following: CREATE TABLE table1 ( field1 INTEGER CHECK ((field1 >= 0) AND (field1 <= 10)) ); Wade Oberpriller > > Hi, > how should I write a constraint that can keep an INT field with values > between 0 and 10? Do I have to use two checks on the same field? >

[GENERAL] check constraint

2000-12-18 Thread Martin A. Marques
Hi, how should I write a constraint that can keep an INT field with values between 0 and 10? Do I have to use two checks on the same field? TIA -- System Administration: It's a dirty job, but someone told I had to do it.

[GENERAL] Check constraint memory problem

1999-02-08 Thread Ricardo J.C.Coelho
Dear Thomas, I began with ver.6.4 beta. What do I have to do ? Come back to 6.3 ? However, I tested more and the problem appear when you use "check" clause of "create table". Could you reproduce the situation with your PostGres 6.3 ? See the procedures below. create table TBL (FLD1 int4, FLD2

[GENERAL] Check constraint

1998-09-15 Thread Anand Surelia
Hi, I have created a function "int fname(void)" in C. When I create this function in Postgres as returning int4 and then do a " create table dummy (level int4 check(fname() > 4));" the creation fails saying that : ERROR: There is no operator '>' for types 'bool' and 'int4' You will either