Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Scott Marlowe]

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Bruce Momjian  wrote:
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 01:43:52PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Absolutely.  The point of quoting previous messages is not to replicate
>> the entire thread in each message; we have archives for that.  The point
>> is to *briefly* remind readers what it is that you're responding to.
>> If you can't be brief, you are disrespecting your readers by wasting their
>> time. They've probably already read the earlier part of the thread anyway.
>
> Totally agree, and I am seeing non-trimmed bottom posts more often on
> the hackers list than I used to.  I am thinking someone needs to start a
> hackers thread about that.

Yeah I'd rather someone quote NOTHING than just top post with no trimming.


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Bruce Momjian]

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 01:43:52PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Absolutely.  The point of quoting previous messages is not to replicate
> the entire thread in each message; we have archives for that.  The point
> is to *briefly* remind readers what it is that you're responding to.
> If you can't be brief, you are disrespecting your readers by wasting their
> time. They've probably already read the earlier part of the thread anyway.

Totally agree, and I am seeing non-trimmed bottom posts more often on
the hackers list than I used to.  I am thinking someone needs to start a
hackers thread about that.

Amen to the usability of the archives with no thread breaks --- I am
sure that was not easy.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I.  As I am, so you will be. +
+  Ancient Roman grave inscription +


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Francisco Olarte]

George:

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 2:23 AM, George Neuner  wrote:

> I agree 100%.  But excessive brevity can make it so a reader can't
> follow the conversation.  Users of web forums often assume *you* can
> easily look back up the thread because *they* can.  In my experience,
> it isn't always easy to do.

Excessive = too much, normally implies bad things.

Francisco Olarte.


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Thomas Kellerer]

Tom Lane schrieb am 11.05.2017 um 19:43:
> Bottom posting without trimming is just an awful combination:
> whatever you do, don't do that.
Amen to that. 





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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Tom Lane]

Alvaro Herrera  writes:
> George Neuner wrote:
>> I agree 100%.  But excessive brevity can make it so a reader can't
>> follow the conversation.  Users of web forums often assume *you* can
>> easily look back up the thread because *they* can.  In my experience,
>> it isn't always easy to do.

> Fortunately, we (postgresql.org) have set up our mailing list archives
> so that it _is_ possible to look back entire threads.  Our archives have
> proven time and again an extremely valuable resource, and we pride on
> their quality and completeness (and the fact that we never ever break
> links even when the website is rewritten).

Amen to the value.  Thanks to those who've made this happen.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Alvaro Herrera]

George Neuner wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2017 13:43:52 -0400, Tom Lane 
> wrote:

> >Personally, when I've scrolled down through a couple of pages of quoted
> >and re-quoted text and see no sign of it ending any time soon, I tend
> >to stop reading.
> 
> I agree 100%.  But excessive brevity can make it so a reader can't
> follow the conversation.  Users of web forums often assume *you* can
> easily look back up the thread because *they* can.  In my experience,
> it isn't always easy to do.

Fortunately, we (postgresql.org) have set up our mailing list archives
so that it _is_ possible to look back entire threads.  Our archives have
proven time and again an extremely valuable resource, and we pride on
their quality and completeness (and the fact that we never ever break
links even when the website is rewritten).  There is always full context
in these lists, if you need it.  

-- 
Álvaro Herrerahttps://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[George Neuner]

On Thu, 11 May 2017 13:43:52 -0400, Tom Lane 
wrote:

>... The point of quoting previous messages is not to replicate
>the entire thread in each message; we have archives for that.  The point
>is to *briefly* remind readers what it is that you're responding to.
>If you can't be brief, you are disrespecting your readers by wasting their
>time. They've probably already read the earlier part of the thread anyway.

Search engines often land in the middle of a conversation.  Quoted
material needs to establish sufficient context for the response to
make sense.

On many occasions, a search has landed me on some site where it was
difficult to navigate threads starting from the middle.

I know we're talking about Usenet here, and Google Groups isn't too
awful[*] when approached strictly as a Usenet archive ... but proper
posting etiquette applies to other discussion mediums as well.


>Personally, when I've scrolled down through a couple of pages of quoted
>and re-quoted text and see no sign of it ending any time soon, I tend
>to stop reading.

I agree 100%.  But excessive brevity can make it so a reader can't
follow the conversation.  Users of web forums often assume *you* can
easily look back up the thread because *they* can.  In my experience,
it isn't always easy to do.


YMMV,
George

[*] where is a "gagging" emoji when you really need one?



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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Gavin Flower]

On 12/05/17 05:04, Francisco Olarte wrote:

Slightly unrelated...

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Gavin Flower
 wrote:

It is normal on this list not to top post, but rather to add comments at the
end (so people can see the context) - though interspersed comments in the
body of the text is okay when appropriate!

I'd rather say interspersed comments with the TRIMMED text body is the
appropiate thing to do. Bottom posting ( edited ) being a particular
case of that when only a single topic/question is being answered.

Full quoting ( I mean the people which even quotes others signatures )
is especially ugly, combined with top posting I feel it as insulting (
to me it feels as 'you do not deserve me taking time to edit a bit and
make things clear' ) ( but well, I started when all the university
multiplexed over a 9600bps link, so I may be a bit extreme on this )

Regards.
Francisco Olarte.


Yes I should have mentioned trimming - but in my defence, I did using 
trimming in my reply!


I started using the internet when I had a 2400 bps modem, in 1990.

I introduced the use of "[...]" to replace the then common "[ omitted ]" 
which was being used in usenet - my very small part in Internet history.



Cheers,
Gavin



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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[Tom Lane]

Francisco Olarte  writes:
> Slightly unrelated...
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Gavin Flower
>  wrote:
>> It is normal on this list not to top post, but rather to add comments at the
>> end (so people can see the context) - though interspersed comments in the
>> body of the text is okay when appropriate!

> I'd rather say interspersed comments with the TRIMMED text body is the
> appropiate thing to do.

Absolutely.  The point of quoting previous messages is not to replicate
the entire thread in each message; we have archives for that.  The point
is to *briefly* remind readers what it is that you're responding to.
If you can't be brief, you are disrespecting your readers by wasting their
time. They've probably already read the earlier part of the thread anyway.

Personally, when I've scrolled down through a couple of pages of quoted
and re-quoted text and see no sign of it ending any time soon, I tend
to stop reading.

Another point is to please put a blank line or so between quoted text
and your own comment.  If you don't provide that visual separation,
you're again making it hard for readers to find what you're adding.

Getting a bit more philosophical: top-posting and not bothering to
trim the quoted material actually work fine together.  You're putting
more cognitive burden on the readers if they don't already remember
what the discussion is, but if you're responding to a five-minute-old
message that probably isn't an issue.  The trim-quotes-and-reply-below
style evolved for discussions that might last over days, where readers
can benefit from a quick reminder.  Bottom posting without trimming
is just an awful combination: whatever you do, don't do that.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] Top posting....

[John McKown]

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Francisco Olarte 
wrote:

> Slightly unrelated...
>
> ​
>
>
> Full quoting ( I mean the people which even quotes others signatures )
> is especially ugly, combined with top posting I feel it as insulting (
> to me it feels as 'you do not deserve me taking time to edit a bit and
> make things clear' ) ( but well, I started when all the university
> multiplexed over a 9600bps link, so I may be a bit extreme on this )
>

​I feel the same way. Because I started out long ago with a 300bps acoustic
modem with a _dial_ phone!​



>
> Regards.
> Francisco Olarte.
>


-- 
Advertising is a valuable economic factor because it is the cheapest way of
selling goods, particularly if the goods are worthless. -- Sinclair Lewis


Maranatha! <><
John McKown

[GENERAL] Top posting....

[Francisco Olarte]

Slightly unrelated...

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Gavin Flower
 wrote:
> It is normal on this list not to top post, but rather to add comments at the
> end (so people can see the context) - though interspersed comments in the
> body of the text is okay when appropriate!

I'd rather say interspersed comments with the TRIMMED text body is the
appropiate thing to do. Bottom posting ( edited ) being a particular
case of that when only a single topic/question is being answered.

Full quoting ( I mean the people which even quotes others signatures )
is especially ugly, combined with top posting I feel it as insulting (
to me it feels as 'you do not deserve me taking time to edit a bit and
make things clear' ) ( but well, I started when all the university
multiplexed over a 9600bps link, so I may be a bit extreme on this )

Regards.
Francisco Olarte.


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Lew]

Bruce Momjian wrote:

I do top-post if I am asking _about_ the email, rather than addressing
its content, like Is this a TODO item?  You don't want to trim the
email because it has context that might be needed for the reply, and
bottom-posting just makes it harder to find my question, and the
question isn't really related to the content of the email.


Strictly speaking, then, that isn't top-posting but inline posting, where in 
line is position 0, with trim, where the amount trimmed is none.


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Bruce Momjian]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 Don't put this one on me :). This is a community thing. AndrewS reply
 aside, if you review the will of the community on this you will see
 that top posting is frowned upon.
 
 I will be the first to step up and pick a fight when I think the
 community is being dumb (just read some of my threads ;)) but on this
 one, I have to agree. We should discourage top posting, vehemently if
 needed.

I do top-post if I am asking _about_ the email, rather than addressing
its content, like Is this a TODO item?  You don't want to trim the
email because it has context that might be needed for the reply, and
bottom-posting just makes it harder to find my question, and the
question isn't really related to the content of the email.

-- 
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  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Lew]

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
We run this list in English, note.  Is that because it's better than Latin? 
No: it's because more of the participants like it that way.  I bet if we had

a lot of Latin speakers, we'd have made a different decision.  And yes,
there's a certain amount of circularity in such convention-picking (because
by choosing English, we surely discriminate against the unilingual Latin
speakers).


De mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est.

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Lew]

Ron St-Pierre wrote:
I agree that top-posting can sometimes be easier to read. However, from 
the perspective of someone who *often* searches the archives for answers 
it is usually *much* easier to find a complete problem/solution set when 
the responses are bottom posted and/or interleaved.


The objection people have about a short answer after a long post isn't cured 
by top-posting.  It's cured by editing the quoted material to provide 
appropriate context without letting the length go bad.


Jo: It made the post harder to read.
Mo: Why is it bad?
Jo: Top-posting.
Mo: What was the problem with my post?

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Peter Childs]

On 12/12/2007, Stephen Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I am subscribed to some other technical mailing lists on which the
 standard is top posting. Those people claim that filing through
 interleaved quotes or scrolling to the bottom just to see a sentence or
 two is a waste of their time. It is the same thing only backwards.

 Me, I don't care either way. I try to conform to whatever is the
 standard for whatever list it is. Why annoy the people giving free
 support?

 I suspect that neither is truly better, and that some of the original /
 very early / expert members just preferred bottom posting for whatever
 reasons, and it propagated into the standard for this list.


Top posting is bad grammar its like English if I wrote the sentence
backwards would you under stand it?

Its as simple as that I can't under stand whats going on if I need to start
at the back of (or bottom) and work back. Its like reading a book you start
at the beginning and work to the end, Top Posting is like putting the last
chapter or the conclusion at the start. It just does not work.

Cutting the original is summarizing what gone before so we can we know the
story so far quickly. Maybe we should start teaching this in schools?

Different languages have different rules there are languages that do read
right to left rather than left to right it does not mean there is anything
wrong with those languages, They are just not used here.

It understand you would backwards sentence the wrote I. If English like its
grammar bad is posting top.

(Sounds like something from Star Wars and the meaning has changed)


Peter Childs

Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Ron Mayer]

Gregory Stark wrote:
 We're not goldfish, we can remember the topic of discussion for at least a few
 hours.

So can Goldfish.  Apparently they have a 3-month+ memory.

http://nootropics.com/intelligence/smartfish.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_1)#Goldfish_Memory

With a memory like that, perhaps a goldfish should replace the elephant for the
mascot, or did the mysql guys already take that one.

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Stephen Cook]

Peter Childs wrote:

On 12/12/2007, *Stephen Cook* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I am subscribed to some other technical mailing lists on which the
standard is top posting. Those people claim that filing through
interleaved quotes or scrolling to the bottom just to see a sentence or
two is a waste of their time. It is the same thing only backwards.

Me, I don't care either way. I try to conform to whatever is the
standard for whatever list it is. Why annoy the people giving free
support?

I suspect that neither is truly better, and that some of the original /
very early / expert members just preferred bottom posting for whatever
reasons, and it propagated into the standard for this list.


Top posting is bad grammar its like English if I wrote the sentence 
backwards would you under stand it?


Its as simple as that I can't under stand whats going on if I need to 
start at the back of (or bottom) and work back. Its like reading a book 
you start at the beginning and work to the end, Top Posting is like 
putting the last chapter or the conclusion at the start. It just does 
not work.


Cutting the original is summarizing what gone before so we can we know 
the story so far quickly. Maybe we should start teaching this in schools?


Different languages have different rules there are languages that do 
read right to left rather than left to right it does not mean there is 
anything wrong with those languages, They are just not used here.


It understand you would backwards sentence the wrote I. If English like 
its grammar bad is posting top.


(Sounds like something from Star Wars and the meaning has changed)


Peter Childs


Geez I was just throwing in my non-partisan (or should I call it 
secular in this case) 2 cents...


Just as different languages have different rules, different mailing 
lists can have different conventions. The is no law, natural or 
otherwise, that defines how to respond to an email in any and every 
situation. My only point was: when in Rome...


Anyone claiming an absolute right and wrong in this is just 
prostelatizing... it isn't even a rule, it is just a convention or 
suggestion for getting more responses (because it also includes the 
knowledgeable people on this list that can't read backwards).


Anyway, I do not want to get [further] involved in this, I'm going back 
to lurking until I learn enough about PostgreSQL to make formatting 
demands in exchange for my help.


-- Stephen

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Thomas Hart]

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:43:44AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
  

O.k. this might be a bit snooty but frankly it is almost 2008. If you
are still a top poster, you obviously don't care about the people's
content that you are replying to, to have enough wits to not top post.



There are those who argue persuasively that emailing is more like letter
writing than conversation, and that it is better to reply with one single
set of paragraphs than with a set of replies interspersed with quotes. 
Moreover, under such circumstances, it is utterly silly to quote the entire

original argument first, because the reader then has to plough through a
long block of reproduced content to get to the novel stuff.  


On a mailing list, perhaps one can argue that the conventions simply have to
be followed.  But I know I find it pretty annoying to get 36 lines of quoted
text followed by something like, No: see the manual, section x.y.z.

I don't think top posting is always the crime it's made to be (and I get a
little tired of lectures to others about it on these lists).

A
  
I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the style 
generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more sense to 
top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then the relevant 
information is right there, and if you weren't, it's not that difficult 
to go through and catch up (it's not like the lines are in reverse 
order, or the words spelled backwards or something).


I have a great deal of respect for you Joshua, and you've helped me out 
of a jam more than once, but quite frankly, that is a bit snooty lol. 
Still, there is a convention here, and I can respect that, but please 
don't insult people who see the world in a different direction than you :-)


Tom

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Gregory Stark]

Andrew Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On a mailing list, perhaps one can argue that the conventions simply have to
 be followed.  But I know I find it pretty annoying to get 36 lines of quoted
 text followed by something like, No: see the manual, section x.y.z.

That's because the real sin is in quoting irrelevant text. The only reason to
quote text is to respond to it and then you would naturally respond after the
quote since the other way around makes no sense.

If anyone does make a FAQ make sure explain first *what* to quote. 
And only having said that then say *how* to quote it.

-- 
  Gregory Stark
  EnterpriseDB  http://www.enterprisedb.com
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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Thomas Hart]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:54:12 -0500
Thomas Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the style 
generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more sense

to top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then the
relevant information is right there, and if you weren't, it's not
that difficult to go through and catch up (it's not like the lines
are in reverse order, or the words spelled backwards or something).

I have a great deal of respect for you Joshua, and you've helped me
out of a jam more than once, but quite frankly, that is a bit snooty
lol. Still, there is a convention here, and I can respect that, but


Well I did say it might be :)
  

please don't insult people who see the world in a different direction
than you :-)



Don't put this one on me :). This is a community thing. AndrewS reply
aside, if you review the will of the community on this you will see
that top posting is frowned upon.

I will be the first to step up and pick a fight when I think the
community is being dumb (just read some of my threads ;)) but on this
one, I have to agree. We should discourage top posting, vehemently if
needed.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
  
As I mentioned I agree, and I realize this is a community thing, and the 
community is awesome so I can respect their will.


Perhaps we should spend more time working, and spend less time debating 
netiquette :-)


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Joshua D. Drake]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:54:12 -0500
Thomas Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the style 
 generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more sense
 to top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then the
 relevant information is right there, and if you weren't, it's not
 that difficult to go through and catch up (it's not like the lines
 are in reverse order, or the words spelled backwards or something).
 
 I have a great deal of respect for you Joshua, and you've helped me
 out of a jam more than once, but quite frankly, that is a bit snooty
 lol. Still, there is a convention here, and I can respect that, but

Well I did say it might be :)

 please don't insult people who see the world in a different direction
 than you :-)

Don't put this one on me :). This is a community thing. AndrewS reply
aside, if you review the will of the community on this you will see
that top posting is frowned upon.

I will be the first to step up and pick a fight when I think the
community is being dumb (just read some of my threads ;)) but on this
one, I have to agree. We should discourage top posting, vehemently if
needed.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Collin Kidder]

Scott Marlowe wrote:

On Dec 11, 2007 11:41 AM, Leif B. Kristensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

It certainly isn't a crime. But it's a bit like thread hijacking in the
sense that a well-formed inline posting is more likely to attract
intelligent replies. I don't think that I'm the only one who tends to
skip top posting replies on mailing lists.



You're certainly not.  I can't tell you how many times I've carefully
replied to someone with inline quoting, only to get some top post
response.  I then ask them politely not to top post, fix the format,
reply, and get another top post reponse.

At that point I just move on to the next thread.
  
I've already made it clear on this list that I would rather top post but 
I've been bottom posting because nothing in this world is more 
irritating than a pedantic computer nerd and well... this is a list 
about a database server...


I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you quoted 
above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. Anything else is 
just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor issues. If all the 
energy spent crying about top posting were used to fuel cities none of 
us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to be so blunt but it 
really irritates me when people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. 
It's not that bad, get over it.


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Joshua D. Drake]

Collin Kidder wrote:

Scott Marlowe wrote:

On Dec 11, 2007 11:41 AM, Leif B. Kristensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you quoted 
above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. Anything else is 
just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor issues. If all the 
energy spent crying about top posting were used to fuel cities none of 
us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to be so blunt but it 
really irritates me when people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. 
It's not that bad, get over it.


You obviously haven't been here very long.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[John D. Burger]

Thomas Hart wrote:

I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the  
style generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more  
sense to top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then  
the relevant information is right there, and if you weren't, it's  
not that difficult to go through and catch up (it's not like the  
lines are in reverse order, or the words spelled backwards or  
something).


You write conversation as if every message is written as a measured  
response to all of the previous messages, with an absolute order  
defined by when the messages arrive in my inbox, like we're all  
carefully taking turns.  This is simply not true, especially when a  
thread has many participants, with many messages flying past each  
other - effectively, there are =many= interwoven conversations going  
on.  Quoting the text to which you are responding is often the only  
way to provide the necessary specific context for your comments.


As an illustration, which helps you understand the preceding  
paragraph better, the extract above, or the mess below?


- John D. Burger
  MITRE

On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:54, Thomas Hart wrote:

Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 08:43:44AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

O.k. this might be a bit snooty but frankly it is almost 2008. If  
you

are still a top poster, you obviously don't care about the people's
content that you are replying to, to have enough wits to not top  
post.




There are those who argue persuasively that emailing is more like  
letter
writing than conversation, and that it is better to reply with one  
single
set of paragraphs than with a set of replies interspersed with  
quotes. Moreover, under such circumstances, it is utterly silly to  
quote the entire
original argument first, because the reader then has to plough  
through a

long block of reproduced content to get to the novel stuff.
On a mailing list, perhaps one can argue that the conventions  
simply have to
be followed.  But I know I find it pretty annoying to get 36 lines  
of quoted

text followed by something like, No: see the manual, section x.y.z.

I don't think top posting is always the crime it's made to be (and  
I get a

little tired of lectures to others about it on these lists).

A

I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the  
style generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more  
sense to top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then  
the relevant information is right there, and if you weren't, it's  
not that difficult to go through and catch up (it's not like the  
lines are in reverse order, or the words spelled backwards or  
something).


I have a great deal of respect for you Joshua, and you've helped me  
out of a jam more than once, but quite frankly, that is a bit  
snooty lol. Still, there is a convention here, and I can respect  
that, but please don't insult people who see the world in a  
different direction than you :-)


Tom

---(end of  
broadcast)---

TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend



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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Thomas Hart]

John D. Burger wrote:

Thomas Hart wrote:

I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the style 
generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more sense 
to top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then the 
relevant information is right there, and if you weren't, it's not 
that difficult to go through and catch up (it's not like the lines 
are in reverse order, or the words spelled backwards or something).


You write conversation as if every message is written as a measured 
response to all of the previous messages, with an absolute order 
defined by when the messages arrive in my inbox, like we're all 
carefully taking turns.  This is simply not true, especially when a 
thread has many participants, with many messages flying past each 
other - effectively, there are =many= interwoven conversations going 
on.  Quoting the text to which you are responding is often the only 
way to provide the necessary specific context for your comments.


As an illustration, which helps you understand the preceding paragraph 
better, the extract above, or the mess below?


- John D. Burger
  MITRE
You don't want my honest answer, which is why you asked me a biased 
question. As I was stating, I agree with the convention and the 
communities wishes, and will attempt to follow them as a show of respect 
for the time spent helping me solve real problems, not this netiquette 
nonsense. You'll notice every post where I defend top posting is still 
bottom posted.


However in the example above, I skipped everything above your response 
and read what you had to say. I knew exactly what you were talking 
about, and as a refresher on the conversation, I read the mess below. 
However I'm not holding out on convincing everybody on the list that top 
posting is better, just like I'm not trying to get everyone on the list 
to agree on a pizza topping. The community has stated over and over 
again that they prefer bottom posting, or pepperoni if you will. If I'm 
getting free pizza from somebody who's not getting paid for it, I'll 
take pepperoni, even if I prefer pineapple, because that's respectful.


You raise some good points, and I agree with them. However if you want 
to have an intelligent conversation, try not to load it with questions 
like Do you prefer the good x above, or the bad x below?. There's a 
simple unbiased way to ask me my opinion, but you weren't interested in 
that, which is why I know you're not interested in my opinion, which is 
why I should have top posted this entire response, but as I said, that's 
disrespectful to the people who have helped me.


Once again, way too much time has been spent on this topic. It's very 
simple (and this is coming from a top poster).


* The community wants you to bottom-post or interleave, no top posting. 
Don't do it.
* The only reason you're here is to ask for help from people that are 
smarter and more talented than you. Don't disrespect them.

* The only reason they're here is because they're awesome. Don't doubt it.

If you skipped this whole post, and only read the points above and this 
line, you're my hero.


Why don't we get away from this whole conversation? It's not productive, 
and it's not going to change anything, and the archives have .001% more 
random useless bs. We should all donate to pgsql for having to store 
this utter crap on their servers. To anybody who hasn't gotten a 
response on a legitimate issue, I apologize for being petty and 
opinionated and wasting your time.


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Gregory Stark]

Andrew Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I would argue that this message is harder to read than if I'd just replied
 at the top.  It's pointlessly long -- but without including everything, you
 wouldn't have all the context, and you might have missed something.  

We're not goldfish, we can remember the topic of discussion for at least a few
hours.

But what you're touching on here is that the real reason newcomers to the
internet favour top-posting: their mail user agents suck. If you have a
threaded mail reader you can always go and reread the original messages for
context. Copying the entire message thread backwards on the end of every
message is just a terrible way to emulate a threaded mail reader for people
who have bad tools.

Seriously, do you have any trouble following the discussion even though I only
clipped two sentences of your message? If you did would you have any trouble
finding the original message to reread it?

Top-posting makes perfect sense if you start from the broken place of assuming
you need to copy the entire thread into every message. It's a bit like saying
but officer I had to speed to keep up with the guy I was tailgating!

-- 
  Gregory Stark
  EnterpriseDB  http://www.enterprisedb.com
  Get trained by Bruce Momjian - ask me about EnterpriseDB's PostgreSQL 
training!

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 07:44:31PM +, Gregory Stark wrote:

 Seriously, do you have any trouble following the discussion even though I
 only clipped two sentences of your message? If you did would you have any
 trouble finding the original message to reread it?

No, but (1) I have been doing this for years and (2) words are my friend.
Not everyone is like me.  Some people find archive-trolling very difficult.
 
 Top-posting makes perfect sense if you start from the broken place of
 assuming you need to copy the entire thread into every message. 

Or if that's the habit you have.  The thing that is easiest is the thing
you're used to.  If you learned this email thingy in an environment where
top posting was what everyone did, then that's familiar and easy, and you'll
tend to stick with it.  Anyone who is trying to argue that there's some view
from nowhere at which we'd be able to decide whether top, bottom, or
interleaved posting is better is imagining things.  There is no
trancendently right way.

Which is why I have (third time's a charm?  Anyway, this is my last post on
the topic) been suggesting we need say nothing more about it than that
interleaving answers with previous posts is the convention of the community;
and if you want the best responses, you'd best follow that convention.  Then
we can avoid any more discussions of what's better.  (I support the
suggestion, too, that we put as much in the friendly greeting everyone who
subscribes gets and promptly deletes without reading.)

We run this list in English, note.  Is that because it's better than Latin? 
No: it's because more of the participants like it that way.  I bet if we had
a lot of Latin speakers, we'd have made a different decision.  And yes,
there's a certain amount of circularity in such convention-picking (because
by choosing English, we surely discriminate against the unilingual Latin
speakers).

A

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[John D. Burger]

Thomas Hart wrote:

As an illustration, which helps you understand the preceding  
paragraph better, the extract above, or the mess below?


You raise some good points, and I agree with them. However if you  
want to have an intelligent conversation, try not to load it with  
questions like Do you prefer the good x above, or the bad x below?.


It's a fair cop (but society's to blame :).  Sorry, I thought better  
of it right after I hit Send.


- John D. Burger
  MITRE



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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Geoffrey]

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you quoted 
above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. Anything else is 
just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor issues. If all the 
energy spent crying about top posting were used to fuel cities none of 
us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to be so blunt but it 
really irritates me when people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. 
It's not that bad, get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will simply 
grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get use to 
it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??


--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Geoffrey]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you 
quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. 
Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor 
issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used to 
fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to 
be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 year 
olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will 
simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get 
use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??




There is no reason for this discussion to become rude. It has been 
productive on both sides thus far. Let's keep it that way.


I felt I was 'responding in kind' wrt 'it really irritates me when 
people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get 
over it.' posting.  My apologies if I've taken it to a level of rude 
that it had not already reached.


--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Joshua D. Drake]

Geoffrey wrote:

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you 
quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. 
Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor 
issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used to 
fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to 
be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 year 
olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will simply 
grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get use to 
it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??




There is no reason for this discussion to become rude. It has been 
productive on both sides thus far. Let's keep it that way.


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Collin Kidder]

Geoffrey wrote:

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you 
quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. 
Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor 
issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used to 
fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to 
be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 year 
olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will 
simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get 
use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??


Yes, I'm bitching, crying, or whatever you'd like to call it. But you 
notice, I'm still attempting to follow the proper posting etiquette for 
this list. However, I do not see any actual valid reason that top 
posting cannot ever be acceptable except that some people are way too 
stuck in a mental rut and refuse to allow for anything other than their 
way. You will also notice that I am far from the only one who follows 
the rules while simultaneously questioning whether there is any point in 
condemning top posting.


I believe that my conforming to the rule shows that I am willing to 
cater to the wishes of the overly anal people on this list. That they 
cannot allow any deviation from their narrow mindset shows you that the 
real problem we've been talking about is with them.


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Collin Kidder]

I felt I was 'responding in kind' wrt 'it really irritates me when 
people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get 
over it.' posting.  My apologies if I've taken it to a level of rude 
that it had not already reached.





I suppose that the post was probably directed at me as much as it was at 
you. For my part in the rudeness I also apologize (and for the reply 
that I sent you which hasn't shown up on the list yet but will.)


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Thomas Hart]

Collin Kidder wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you 
quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. 
Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor 
issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used 
to fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry 
to be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 
year olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will 
simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  
Get use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??


Yes, I'm bitching, crying, or whatever you'd like to call it. But you 
notice, I'm still attempting to follow the proper posting etiquette 
for this list. However, I do not see any actual valid reason that top 
posting cannot ever be acceptable except that some people are way too 
stuck in a mental rut and refuse to allow for anything other than 
their way. You will also notice that I am far from the only one who 
follows the rules while simultaneously questioning whether there is 
any point in condemning top posting.


I believe that my conforming to the rule shows that I am willing to 
cater to the wishes of the overly anal people on this list. That they 
cannot allow any deviation from their narrow mindset shows you that 
the real problem we've been talking about is with them.
I agree with Joshua on this point. It's entirely possible to discuss 
this without resorting to immaturity. If you make a decent point, then 
diminish it by cursing or insulting everybody here, you've lost the 
point and it's effectiveness entirely.


--
Tom Hart
IT Specialist
Cooperative Federal
723 Westcott St.
Syracuse, NY 13210
(315) 471-1116 ext. 202
(315) 476-0567 (fax)


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Scott Marlowe]

On Dec 11, 2007 2:58 PM, Collin Kidder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Geoffrey wrote:
  Collin Kidder wrote:
 
  I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you
  quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post.
  Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor
  issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used to
  fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to
  be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 year
  olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.
 
  If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will
  simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get
  use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??
 
 Yes, I'm bitching, crying, or whatever you'd like to call it. But you
 notice, I'm still attempting to follow the proper posting etiquette for
 this list.

No you're not.  You're making personally insulting statements when you
could just as easily make your point without them.  Following the
format people want for quoting doesn't allow you to be insulting and
rude.

 However, I do not see any actual valid reason that top
 posting cannot ever be acceptable except that some people are way too
 stuck in a mental rut and refuse to allow for anything other than their
 way.

If you can stop insulting me long enough to go back and read the old
messages in this thread, you'll see that I too said it was perfectly
acceptable some times.  Things like Thanks, that solved it! are fine
top posted, although you really should crop the majority of the
message you're replying to so as not to send a one liner on top of a
35k message.

 I believe that my conforming to the rule shows that I am willing to
 cater to the wishes of the overly anal people on this list.

Now if you just stop insulting them.

 That they
 cannot allow any deviation from their narrow mindset shows you that the
 real problem we've been talking about is with them.

Um. no.

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Scott Marlowe]

On Dec 11, 2007 1:01 PM, Collin Kidder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Scott Marlowe wrote:
  On Dec 11, 2007 11:41 AM, Leif B. Kristensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It certainly isn't a crime. But it's a bit like thread hijacking in the
  sense that a well-formed inline posting is more likely to attract
  intelligent replies. I don't think that I'm the only one who tends to
  skip top posting replies on mailing lists.
 
 
  You're certainly not.  I can't tell you how many times I've carefully
  replied to someone with inline quoting, only to get some top post
  response.  I then ask them politely not to top post, fix the format,
  reply, and get another top post reponse.
 
  At that point I just move on to the next thread.
 
 I've already made it clear on this list that I would rather top post but
 I've been bottom posting because nothing in this world is more
 irritating than a pedantic computer nerd and well... this is a list
 about a database server...

I'll thank you for not making any personal attacks, and keeping the
list professional.  If you have something to say, you can say it
without insults.  At no time have I insulted you, I'd expect and
appreciate the same common courtesy.  If you can't do that, then I'd
ask you politely to not join in the conversation.  I don't come on
this list to be insulted.  I come on to help postgresql users figure
out their problems.

I'm not pedantic.  When discussing a complex problem, it can be very
difficult to keep track of the thread of discussion when people top
post replies back to me when I've carefully interleaved my response to
them.  I can't count the number of times that I could not tell what
part of my message they were replying to.  It's not pedantic.  It's
about keeping track  of what we're discussing.

 I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you quoted
 above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. Anything else is
 just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor issues.

Again, please stop with the personal insults.  I am not a baby.  I am
a 43 year old adult who is fairly mature.  I don't come here to insult
or be insulted.

  Sorry to be so blunt but it
 really irritates me when people cry like 4 year olds about top posting.
 It's not that bad, get over it.

Blunt is fine.  Insulting is not, and it's not called for.

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Collin Kidder]

I agree with Joshua on this point. It's entirely possible to discuss 
this without resorting to immaturity. If you make a decent point, then 
diminish it by cursing or insulting everybody here, you've lost the 
point and it's effectiveness entirely.




Yes, once again, I apologize. At times I seem to fail at running what I 
really think though the ol' appropriateness filter. This has been one of 
those times. I'm sorry for what has amounted to personal attacks and 
trolling. It wasn't really my intent but looking back now I can see that 
I've acted improperly. This is something I'll have to try to work on. 
Sorry all!


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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Erik Jones]

On Dec 11, 2007, at 2:58 PM, Collin Kidder wrote:


Geoffrey wrote:

Collin Kidder wrote:

I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you  
quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post.  
Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with  
minor issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting  
were used to fuel cities none of us would be paying for power  
right now. Sorry to be so blunt but it really irritates me when  
people cry like 4 year olds about top posting. It's not that bad,  
get over it.


If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will  
simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.   
Get use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??


Yes, I'm bitching, crying, or whatever you'd like to call it. But  
you notice, I'm still attempting to follow the proper posting  
etiquette for this list. However, I do not see any actual valid  
reason that top posting cannot ever be acceptable except that some  
people are way too stuck in a mental rut and refuse to allow for  
anything other than their way. You will also notice that I am far  
from the only one who follows the rules while simultaneously  
questioning whether there is any point in condemning top posting.


I believe that my conforming to the rule shows that I am willing  
to cater to the wishes of the overly anal people on this list. That  
they cannot allow any deviation from their narrow mindset shows you  
that the real problem we've been talking about is with them.


However, with your name calling and vernacular attributions, you  
obviously don't want to participate at the same level of  
professionalism as the rest of them.


Erik Jones

Software Developer | Emma®
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888
615.292.0777 (fax)

Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate  market in style.
Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com



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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Bill Moran]

In response to Collin Kidder [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Geoffrey wrote:
  Collin Kidder wrote:
 
  I have to suffer through dealing with people like the two of you 
  quoted above. You can deal with people who'd like to top post. 
  Anything else is just being a spoiled baby who can't deal with minor 
  issues. If all the energy spent crying about top posting were used to 
  fuel cities none of us would be paying for power right now. Sorry to 
  be so blunt but it really irritates me when people cry like 4 year 
  olds about top posting. It's not that bad, get over it.
 
  If it's not brought to the attention of the masses, then it will 
  simply grow, and it simply is not the way it's done on this list.  Get 
  use to it.  Now who's doing the 4 year old crying??
 
 Yes, I'm bitching, crying, or whatever you'd like to call it. But you 
 notice, I'm still attempting to follow the proper posting etiquette for 
 this list. However, I do not see any actual valid reason that top 
 posting cannot ever be acceptable except that some people are way too 
 stuck in a mental rut and refuse to allow for anything other than their 
 way.

This is called Trolling

Whether or not you are doing it on purpose is irrelevant.  The effect is
still the same, even if you do it accidentally.

The point has been brought up again and again and again: top posting
makes it difficult for the veterans on this list to understand and
respond to your email.  As a result, in order to get the best possible
response, DO NOT TOP POST.

Somehow, you continue to bring this back around to how we hate top-posting
and despise top-posters and whatever else it is you're saying.  I'm not
aware of _anyone_ ever being banned or anything horrible as a result of
top-posting.  The worst thing that happens is that busy people begin
ignoring the thread, and this is what me (and others) who say please don't
top-post are trying to avoid.

If you want to turn it into some personal war or something, please don't
do it on the list.  

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Erik Jones]

On Dec 11, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Gregory Stark wrote:



Andrew Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I would argue that this message is harder to read than if I'd just  
replied
at the top.  It's pointlessly long -- but without including  
everything, you

wouldn't have all the context, and you might have missed something.


We're not goldfish, we can remember the topic of discussion for at  
least a few

hours.


/me stares at his reflection in the glass...

What? :)

Erik Jones

Software Developer | Emma®
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888
615.292.0777 (fax)

Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate  market in style.
Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com



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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Greg Smith]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Collin Kidder wrote:

I believe that my conforming to the rule shows that I am willing to 
cater to the wishes of the overly anal people on this list. That they 
cannot allow any deviation from their narrow mindset shows you that the 
real problem we've been talking about is with them.


FYI, when I read a comment like this, which is making it very clear that 
you feel you're smarter than everyone else who disagrees with you, my only 
response is to shrug, file you under the list of people who clearly don't 
ever need my help, and never respond to anything you ask about. 
Dictating policy is something the people *answering* questions get to do, 
and if your introduction to the list involves insulting them like you've 
done above I hope you never run into something you need advice about here.


--
* Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Robert Treat]

On Tuesday 11 December 2007 16:11, Scott Marlowe wrote:
snip
 read the old
 messages in this thread, you'll see that I too said it was perfectly
 acceptable some times.  Things like Thanks, that solved it! are fine
 top posted, although you really should crop the majority of the
 message you're replying to so as not to send a one liner on top of a
 35k message.


Actually interesting point; one issue with top posting is that those who do it 
tend to not trim appropriatly the messages they reply to (why would you if 
your top posting).  If you do trim accordingly, you're already at the bottom 
of the email, and so bottom posting comes more naturally. *shrug*

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Ron St-Pierre]

Thomas Hart wrote:

Andrew Sullivan wrote:


I don't think top posting is always the crime it's made to be (and I 
get a

little tired of lectures to others about it on these lists).

A
  
I agree. Obviously there is convention, and I will post in the style 
generally accepted in the list, but to me it always made more sense to 
top post. If you're keeping up on the conversation, then the relevant 
information is right there, and if you weren't, it's not that 
difficult to go through and catch up 
I agree that top-posting can sometimes be easier to read. However, from 
the perspective of someone who *often* searches the archives for answers 
it is usually *much* easier to find a complete problem/solution set when 
the responses are bottom posted and/or interleaved.


Ron

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Re: [GENERAL] top posting

[Stephen Cook]

Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:00:00 -0600
Scott Marlowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


You're certainly not.  I can't tell you how many times I've
carefully replied to someone with inline quoting, only to get some
top post response.  I then ask them politely not to top post, fix
the format, reply, and get another top post reponse.


Jumping in here just cos I got tired to read here (nothing personal
Scott).
It is generally fun to read this kind of never-die thread in search
of the most stubborn reply but at the 4th reply they start to look
all equally stubborn.


a) people that have used email more than the average newcomers
and tried more clients they can remember agree that top posting in
technical discussions is generally[1] not efficient
b) this community agree that top posting is not welcome
c) replaying contextually and snipping will give people more chances
to get a reply
d) people here continue to remember that top posting is not efficient
to educate newcomers

I'd suggest to people that think differently to just conform to the
rule.
I'd suggest to idealists to avoid to convince stubborn people and as
a retaliation to their anti-social behaviour to avoid to reply to
their questions if they insist in not conforming to the rules or
pollute the list with pro top posting arguments.

This thread comes over and over and over on every mailing list.
We'd have a link pointing to the reasons why there are generally
better alternatives to top posting and cut the thread ASAP.
It is surprising how people with more experience than me on the
Internet get trapped in this kind of thread.

*Especially because we could use their time much better.*

Every time people like Tom Lane and Joshua D. Drake waste their time
in such kind of dump people on this list lose the chance to read
interesting stuff about Postgres, SQL and DB.


[1] In general; commonly; extensively, __though not universally__;
  most frequently.

BTW it is not a case that Computer Science and *Information*
Technology are strict relatives




I am subscribed to some other technical mailing lists on which the 
standard is top posting. Those people claim that filing through 
interleaved quotes or scrolling to the bottom just to see a sentence or 
two is a waste of their time. It is the same thing only backwards.


Me, I don't care either way. I try to conform to whatever is the 
standard for whatever list it is. Why annoy the people giving free support?


I suspect that neither is truly better, and that some of the original / 
very early / expert members just preferred bottom posting for whatever 
reasons, and it propagated into the standard for this list.


-- Stephen


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