[HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Pgsql-hackers. We would like to obtain your opinion on these two questions: 1) We wanna append possibilities into Postgres engine, and wanna get top estimation for size of code, cost and time of implementation. 1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in already written code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to 'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping source code is possiblle) 1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo How relevant is this estimation ? 2) We are captivated by price of Indians, we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians, we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway). What requirements should satisfy code, written by Indians, to be in next version of Postgres ? Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Pgsql-hackers. We would like to obtain your opinion on these two questions: 1) We wanna append possibilities into Postgres engine, and wanna get top estimation for size of code, cost and time of implementation. 1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in already written code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to 'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping source code is possiblle) 1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo How relevant is this estimation ? 2) We are captivated by price of Indians, we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians, we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway). What requirements should satisfy code, written by Indians, to be in next version of Postgres ? Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Jonah and Ibrar. This is the wrong place to do it. Seggest other place. 2) We are captivated by price of Indians, we listened much about low quality of code, written by Indians, we are fearing, that American company will resale implementation to Indian subcontractor (i.e. real developers will be Indians anyway). Did you really just say that? My letters are perlustrated by bank security command (team). it seems that you haven't got the hint yet Already done. Current results is the following: A1) cost in US is above cost in India in 3 time (i.e. coefficient is 3), coefficient was obtained as expert estimation independently (of digits below). A2) avarage in India is nearly 50 000$, avarage in US is nearly 150 000$. Much dispersion (range) of prices (dispersion for India is bigger). Both country informs, that cost in Europe is above cost in US. A3) Contributor from Pg informs, that cost is 50 000 euro, i.e. 75 000$. We interpret in following way: B1) We can pack into 75 000, if we will seach developers enough long time, we can get developers just now, if we pay twice (i.e. 75*2=150) B2) therefore cost in India is increased twice, i.e. actual cost is 25 000 B3) We have no reasons to believe US, probably real developers will be in India Do we really need this kind of discussion here? Bosses do not like dispersion. Besides this, 50 000 itself seems very much for India to be math expectation. Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Robert. This is the wrong place to do it. Seggest other place. This topic is off-topic for the mailing list. I feel strong desire to recall you, that Pg has no concreate instructions till now how to hire for appending features into engine. And of cource, there is no usefull recomendations to orientate on market. P.S. I agree to continue discussion about features of site only in other mailing list, if you just want. Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Pavel. you have to show some real product, real project Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known. No IT solution can be confirmed or not, but business solution. Budget for implementation is part of business solution. Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] COCOMO Indians
Hi, Pavel. Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known. I though some different, First you have to show real code show read code before hiring develop process is based I'm not intersting process of development in pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org now - i'm interesting method to estimate lines and time. If you don't like my proposals, you can imply other proposals behind. I assume, PMs can be not here (in list), as well as (nominal) PMs here can not use methods and work at random. Let's leave my SQL5, and come back to topic: 1.1) We divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in already written code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to 'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping source code is possiblle) 1.2) We calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo How relevant is this estimation ? Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Re[2+]: COCOMO Indians
Hi, Pavel. Let me replace We by Somebody for your comprehension. Money will not be confirmed, until size of it will be known. I though some different, First you have to show real code show read code before hiring develop process is based I'm not intersting process of development in pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org now - i'm interesting method to estimate lines and time. If you don't like my proposals, you can imply other proposals behind. I assume, PMs can be not here (in list), as well as (nominal) PMs here can not use methods and work at random. Let's leave my SQL5, and come back to topic: 1.1) Somebody divide possibilities to elementary features, find analogues in already written code, and suppose e.g., that quantity of lines for 'create timer' will be similar to 'create function', and that implementation for 'create timer' is easy than implementation of 'create function' (because it already has prototype in 'create function', and coping source code is possiblle) 1.2) Somebody calculate cost and time by COCOMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocomo How relevant is this estimation ? Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] SQL5 budget
Hi, Pgsql-hackers. many seem (to me) to be overly tied to an all XML all the time view. Only for hierarchical result sets. Even in case of http://computer20.euro.ru/site/computer20/en/author/communication_eng.htm Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] SQL5 budget
Hi, Pgsql-hackers. what he's looking for is to somehow use XML in lieu of, um, either SQL, PHP, libpq, or something like that. (And the fact that those are 4 rather different things reveals how confused the matter is.) http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200802/msg00213.html Dmitry (SQL50, HTML60) -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] SQL5 budget
Hi, Pgsql-hackers.
Full list of changes of two related projects (SQL5 HTML6) at current moment
(not reflected in documentation yet).
===terms
master table is table, to primary key of which this (slave) table refers
(terms master and slave are used only for MTD).
if master table is not represented in the same html-document,
where slave is (created by select 'table name=A'),
then new separate browser window will appear, and content of master table
will shown in it.
master and slave table must be bound by only one foreing key in database.
communication - must be implemented via SQL5 over TCP
(look at slides #27-28 of http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf)
without closing TCP-connection after obtaining XML-document
because saments are saved in database, but baments are not
(we don't need to save temporary service information), instead of sament
_ name= event= arg=
the following bament must be sent
?mtd name= event= arg= /?
===60
in regard to
http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/looker_eng.htm
http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/mtd_eng.htm
instead of
table name=M action=./scriptM.cgi portion=50 visual=20 id=id1
table name=S action=./scriptS.cgi portion=40 visual=10 master=id1
the following construction must be implemented
table name=M
table name=S
with CSS
table[name=M] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table[name=S] { online:yes; portion:40; visual:10; master:M }
as well as instead of
table name=M action=./scriptM.cgi portion=50 visual=20 id=id1
table name=N action=./scriptN.cgi portion=50 visual=20 id=id2
table name=P action=./scriptP.cgi portion=50 visual=20 id=id3
table name=S action=./scriptS.cgi portion=40 visual=10 master=id1 id2
id3
the following construction must be implemented
table name=M
table name=N
table name=P
table name=S
with CSS
table[name=M] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table[name=N] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table[name=P] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table[name=S] { online:yes; portion:40; visual:10; master:M N P }
or (if slave table refers to one master table by 3 own fields)
table[name=M] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table[name=S] { online:yes; portion:40; visual:10; master:M/§s3 N/§s4 P/§s5 }
where §s3, §s4, §s5 are fields of table S
instead of sament
_ name= event= arg=
the following bament must be sent
?mtd name= event= arg= /?
as well as instead of
_ name= event= arg=
a a1= a2= a3=
the following construction must be sent
?mtd name= event= arg=
a a1= a2= a3=
/?mtd
as well as instead of
_ name=S event=TableDown arg=40
m m1= m2= m3=
n n1= n2= n3=
p p1= p2= p3=
the following construction must be sent
?mtd name= event= arg=
m m1= m2= m3=
n n1= n2= n3=
p p1= p2= p3=
/?mtd
instead of
a a1= a2= a3=tiger.jpg
file name=a3 filename=tiger.jpgY29udGVudHMgb2YgZmlsZTEudHh0/file
the following construction must be implemented
a a1= a2= a3=tiger.jpg
?file attr=a3 value=tiger.jpg xml:size=
Y29udGVudHMgb2YgZmlsZTEudHh0/file
instead of
tablename=A action=./script.cgi portion=50 visual=20
select name=B action=./script2.cgi portion=40 visual=10a2/select
/table
the following construction must be implemented
tablename=A/
with CSS
table [name=A] { online:yes; portion:50; visual:20 }
table [name=A] { §a2: B }/* 'portion', 'visual' are
inherited */
in addition to mentioned, statement
table [name=A] { §a2: B C }
means, that C is master table for B, B is master table for §a2,
and that browser represents content C before content B to choose sub-set
of B
in addition to mentioned in paper, each 1-st click on column header
(e.g. concerning to xml-attribute @a2) sends bament
?mtd name= event=asc arg=a2/?
each 2-nd click sends bament
?mtd name= event=dsc arg=a2/?
each 3-rd click sends bament
?mtd name= event=none arg=a2/?
in addition to mentioned in paper, master table rise appearance of new
separete browser window
and displaying content of slave table in it, if
*) additional virtual column is specified in CSS for master table
(slave field is specified too, if several fields of slave table refer to
one master table)
table[name=M] §m20::after { slave:S/§s5 }
*) user make double-click on this virtual column
Relation master-slave is served by the same saments, as relation
slave-master;
but refering key will be specified
?mtd name= event= arg=
m/§s3 m1= m2= m3=
/?mtd
---
in regard to
http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/combo_eng.htm
http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/mtd_eng.htm
instead of
select name=C action=./script2.cgi portion=40
the following element must be implemented
select name=C
with CSS
ul[name=A] { online:yes; portion:40 }
instead of sament
_ name= event= arg=
the following bament must be sent
?mtd name= event= arg= /?
as well as instead of
_ name= event= arg=
option id= value=word40option
the following construction must be sent
?mtd
[HACKERS] SQL5 budget
Hi, all. I had preliminary conversation with my employer about implementation of SQL5 [1] without Driven Scene [2]. He needs concrete budget. So i'm asking you to estimate and say, how much will it cost. In particular, speach goes about implemention of slides # 17-42, 47-56, 63, 102-109, 114-143, 147-157, 160-177, 180-197 of sql5.16.4.pdf, and about implementation of http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/mtd_eng.htm [1] http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf Brief description of SQL5 is on http://blogs.ingres.com/technology/2008/07/31/bringing-dbms-in-line-with-modern-communication-requirements-sql2009 or on http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/resume_eng.htm [2] http://computer20.euro.ru/driven-scene.pdf Brief description of SQL5 is on http://blogs.ingres.com/technology/2008/07/31/new-step-in-office-technologies-driven-scene or on http://computer20.euro.ru/site/computer20/en/author/driven-scene_eng.htm -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] SQL5 budget
I had preliminary conversation with my employer about implementation of SQL5 [1] without Driven Scene [2]. He needs concrete budget. So i'm asking you to estimate and say, how much will it cost. In particular, speach goes about implemention of slides # 17-42, 47-56, 63, 102-109, 114-143, 147-157, 160-177, 180-197 of sql5.16.4.pdf, and about implementation of http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/mtd_eng.htm Changes of two related projects (SQL5 HTML6), not reflected in documentation yet. ===50 in regard to http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf (slide #31,etc) in addition to mentioned in pdf-document, statement SELECT ... COMMENTING. extracts additional record from table as first xml-element, attributes of which contain comments, specified for each field earlier by statement COMMENT tab/@fld BY column title; this first xml-element contains additional service xml-attribute '_=comment'. usually comments are specified for html-tables, instead of html-trees -- in regard to http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf (slide #18) http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/tabfile_eng.htm (Sending of form) http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/cube_eng.htm(Sending of form) Obtaining single xml-element (instead of xml-tree) with primary key (PK) for DBMS table (specified in some xml-attribute) means the following: *) if this PK is already in DBMS table, then DBMS *updates* fields of record with this PK *) if this PK is not in table (this usually means, that record with this PK was already deleted), then DBMS *inserts* this xml-element under new PK (obtained from sequence for this PK), i.e. PK will be changed during insertion. -- in regard to http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf (slide #31-32, 39(Another output), 40) http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/forxml_eng.htm http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/quest_eng.htm#webforms_data (data id=records.../data) Each 'select ...' extracts data into LAN or WAN. (instead of 'insert ... select ...' and 'select ... into ...', coping data into internal DBMS table). Each 'select ... union ... select ...' interpreted as single extraction of xml into LAN or WAN. Each extraction of data into LAN or WAN is automatically: *) anticipated by content of field 'beginning' of system table 'SysXmlFormatting' *) ended by content of field 'end' of system table 'SysXmlFormatting' and *) by bament ?newdocument/? (to inform client, e.g. browser, about end of document) P.S. Other field of system table 'SysXmlFormatting' is URL (which specifies browser URL; 'null' means all URL and is applied, only if 'SysXmlFormatting' does not contain record with exact URL). -- in regard to http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf (slide #173) Authentification (obtaining username and password, slide #173) must be implemented by baments (look at slides #26-27) and is described nowhere. --other SQL5 additions in addition to mentioned in pdf-document, each 'select ...' (extracting data into LAN/WAN) is savepoint. DBMS rollbacks to this savepoint, having obtained bament ?back/? in addition to mentioned in pdf-document, permissions for field are controlled GRANT/REVOKE SELECT/INSERT/UPDATE ON tab/@fld FOR user1; in addition to mentioned in pdf-document, if table b below is created -- | b1 | b2 | b3 | || | | a1 | a2 | a3 | || || || -- then expression IMPLY b/@b3 as b/@b3/@a2; influence so, that any 'SELECT @b3 FROM b' will extract only one elementary field (@a2) instead of all branch elementary fields (@a1, @a2, @a3), i.e. mentioned statement will be equivalent to 'SELECT @b3/@a2 FROM b'. it's for multi-language applications (@a1, @a2, @a3 contain notes in different languages) DBMS creates separete CSS-file username.css for each user username in local (for DBMS) directory. All accessable database fields (for user username) are listed in this file as ¶fieldname [instead of §fieldname, because DBMS does not know, what fields are service (like @colspan, @rowspan) or are values of properties (like in http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/chart_eng.htm), and what fields contain data for visualization - so mark ¶ acts like comment for this xml-attribute), except fields, which are primary keys in database, and which are always specified (and never ignored) as invisible. Fields, calculated upon other fields and don't saved really, specified as calculated by browser upon other fields. CSS-files are available for editing for DBMS administrator. ===60 in regard to http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/looker_eng.htm http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/mtd_eng.htm instead of table name=M action=./scriptM.cgi portion=50 visual=20 id=id1 table name=S action=./scriptS.cgi portion=40 visual=10 master=id1 the following
Re: [HACKERS] Postgres + Window manager
Josh, Can i hope to your interest ? I stated details of proposal on page 2-13, 67-75 of pdf-document http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf , and i ask to implement it. All my proposals are public domain. JB I'm confused. You're planning to develop this DT I can't make this alone. JB or you're looking for someone else to? DT Yes, i'm looking for programmers, which agree to support this DT initiative. Dmitry Turin SQL5 (5.16.4) http://sql50.narod.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Postgres + Window manager
Josh, I stated details of proposal on page 2-13, 67-75 of pdf-document http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf , and i ask to implement it. All my proposals are public domain. JB I'm confused. You're planning to develop this I can't make this alone. JB or you're looking for someone else to? Yes, i'm looking for programmers, which agree to support this initiative. Dmitry Turin SQL5 (5.16.4) http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Postgres + Window manager
Good day, Progress in office technologies stopped, and it has occurred because user himself can not map arbitrary 3-dimensional composition _into_ a window. In the same time, it's possible to keep composition in Postgres, to extract by operator 'select', and to transfer got binary data without transformation into Window manager. Thus user will avoid OpenGL and DirectX, which he never master. I stated details of proposal on page 2-13, 67-75 of pdf-document http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf , and i ask to implement it. All my proposals are public domain. P.S. XML is used only to clarify, what's happened in proprietary format, used for communication between Postgres and its client. Dmitry Turin SQL5 (5.16.4) http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.16.4.pdf HTML6 (6. 8.3) http://html60.euro.ru Unicode7 (7. 3.2) http://unicode70.euro.ru Computer2 (2. 7.0) http://computer20.euro.ru -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] distibuted transactions, SQL+XPath+XTree
Richard, I see the following business opportunity for Postgres: I) Simple man can't program middleware to connect XML-client and Postgres. RH Aha! still trying to push an XML command system and http server into the RH backend. Yes. II) Request into several databases does not exist. RH what you do with cross-database dependencies As i understand, you are saying about inter-database FK connect address www.default.bz; create nick db1 address www.site.com; create nick db2 address www.data.net; connect addr=“www.data.net” user=“Smith” pwd=“qxuwb”; create table b ( b1 xml, b2 number, b3 xml ); connect addr=“www.site.com” user=“Tomson” pwd=“ncwhif”; create table a ( a1 number references db1:b(@b1/k/m/@m1), a2 xml, foreign key (@a2/p/q/@q1) references db1:b(@b2), a3 xml, foreign key (@a3/p/q/@q1) references db1:b(@b3/k/m/@m1) ); e.g. slides #75-76 in http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.11.3.ppt ? There are two case, which i'm naming 'set' ( a= b, slide #93-94) and 'relay-rece' ( a = b , slide #95-98). I propose to not try all second database, i.e. to not use reference from second database to first database (case of 'set'). Case 'relay-race' works clearly. Of course, i raise question about designation of interbase FK in modellers (slide #105). III) Notebooks need several switching-on and switching-off during transaction. RH How are you dealing with the locking issues? I propose to freeze transaction (#118): create user u identified by p waited 1.0/0; -- yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss; freeze; -- like disconnect - ?res code=0 frozen=7482 ? !-- from ‘default.edu’ -- ?res code=0 frozen=8726 ? !-- from ‘site.com’ -- ?res code=0 frozen=9278 ? !-- from ‘data.net’ -- ?res code=0 frozen=3825 ? !-- from ‘data.net’: second transaction -- ?res code=0 frozen=6384 ? !-- from ‘store.org’ -- ?res code=6 ? !-- from ‘place.ws’: database is broken -- unfreeze addr=site.com user=Tomson pwd=ncwhif safe=8726; -- like ‘connect’ unfreeze addr=data.net user=Smith pwd=qxuwb safe=9278; P.S. Of course, i propose possibility to freeze failed commit (#120). IV) Distance between strings are not supported, that makes aproximate searching impossible. RH Would that be not supported in the sense of contrib/fuzzystrmatch? I propose 1) to use Levenshtein distance recursively: for letters in words, for words in phrases (separated by marks of punctuation), for phrases (e.g. sentances) in string 2) to count convolutions (several words into abbreviation, and back) V) There is no possibility to hide some (not all) records of table, granted to other users, from these users RH Apart from views depending of user, which look in view RH or the veil pgfoundry project of course. I'm not understanding, clarify, please. I ask you to implement these solutions, that Postgres get advantage before other DBMS-es. I have prepered several drawing http://sql50.euro.ru/sql5.11.3.ppt to explain ideas. More details are described below. RH Were you looking to hire developers, or do you have customers who are RH looking to hire developers? Neither this, nor that. I'm looking for volunteers. P.S. I'm also seggesting to implement 1) restricted table for stream processing: create table a ( a1 number, a2 number ) size 5; create table aa (…); -- resize a to 10; -- resize a to infinity; -- redirect a to aa; create table a ( a1 number, a2 number ) size 5 direct aa; 2) timer: create timer TimerName start yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss end yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss schedule (yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss, yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss, …) per yy.mm.dd/hh.mm.ss as begin … end; create timer t1 schedule (01/0, 03/0, 10/0) per 01.00/0 as … ; -- 1-st, 3-rd, 10-th day of each month create timer t2 schedule (0/0.05, 0/0.10, 0/0.20) per 0/01 as … ; -- 5-, 10-, 20-th minutes of each hour create timer t3 schedule (0) per 1/0 as … ; -- each day Dmitry Turin SQL5 (5.11.3) http://sql50.euro.ru HTML6 (6. 5.4) http://html60.euro.ru Unicode7 (7. 2.1) http://unicode70.euro.ru Computer2 (2. 0.2) http://computer20.euro.ru ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
