Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
Hi, On 01/31/2016 01:25 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: This hasn't been updated in a long time; I should have closed it earlier. Chatting with Tomas about it, he seemed inclined to just have the patch rejected because it's not terribly useful anyway. we've discussed that some time ago and my memory is a bit flaky, but I don't think that's quite what I said. The main reason why I haven't posted an updated version of the patch is that it seems a bit silly to spend time on this while the underlying data loss issue is still not fixed (it got to "ready for committer" since then). I'm marking it as rejected. Unless someone has a compelling use case for this feature that hasn't been put forward, I think we're done here. I'm a bit torn - I think the protection might be useful, but there are a few issues with this approach: 1) Getting the "can't start, WAL segments lost" message after a crash is a bit late. It protects against silent data loss, it only makes it "not silent" so it's not "fixed". But maybe it's worth it. 2) It protects against a fairly narrow class of failures when we lose the last WAL segment for some reason. Hopefully once we add the additional fsyncs that particular failure scenario will get fixed, but the question is whether we're in danger of reintroducing it (or a similar issue) later. I guess we could mark it as "rejected" but that's likely to eliminate any further feedback / discussion about the protection in general. regards -- Tomas Vondra http://www.2ndQuadrant.com PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
This hasn't been updated in a long time; I should have closed it earlier. Chatting with Tomas about it, he seemed inclined to just have the patch rejected because it's not terribly useful anyway. I'm marking it as rejected. Unless someone has a compelling use case for this feature that hasn't been put forward, I think we're done here. -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:24 AM, Tomas Vondra wrote: > > > On 12/12/2015 11:39 PM, Andres Freund wrote: > >> On 2015-12-12 23:28:33 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: >> >>> On 12/12/2015 11:20 PM, Andres Freund wrote: >>> On 2015-12-12 22:14:13 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: > this is the second improvement proposed in the thread [1] about ext4 > data > loss issue. It adds another field to control file, tracking the last > known > WAL segment. This does not eliminate the data loss, just the silent > part of > it when the last segment gets lost (due to forgetting the rename, > deleting > it by mistake or whatever). The patch makes sure the cluster refuses to > start if that happens. > Uh, that's fairly expensive. In many cases it'll significantly increase the number of fsyncs. >>> >>> It should do exactly 1 additional fsync per WAL segment. Or do you think >>> otherwise? >>> >> >> Which is nearly doubling the number of fsyncs, for a good number of >> workloads. And it does so to a separate file, i.e. it's not like >> these writes and the flushes can be combined. In workloads where >> pg_xlog is on a separate partition it'll add the only source of >> fsyncs besides checkpoint to the main data directory. >> > > I also think so. > I doubt it will make any difference in practice, at least on reasonable > hardware (which you should have, if fsync performance matters to you). > > But some performance testing will be necessary, I don't expect this to go > in without that. It'd be helpful if you could describe the workload. > > I think to start with you can try to test pgbench read-write workload when the data fits in shared_buffers. With Regards, Amit Kapila. EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
On 12/12/2015 11:39 PM, Andres Freund wrote: On 2015-12-12 23:28:33 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: On 12/12/2015 11:20 PM, Andres Freund wrote: On 2015-12-12 22:14:13 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: this is the second improvement proposed in the thread [1] about ext4 data loss issue. It adds another field to control file, tracking the last known WAL segment. This does not eliminate the data loss, just the silent part of it when the last segment gets lost (due to forgetting the rename, deleting it by mistake or whatever). The patch makes sure the cluster refuses to start if that happens. Uh, that's fairly expensive. In many cases it'll significantly increase the number of fsyncs. It should do exactly 1 additional fsync per WAL segment. Or do you think otherwise? Which is nearly doubling the number of fsyncs, for a good number of workloads. And it does so to a separate file, i.e. it's not like these writes and the flushes can be combined. In workloads where pg_xlog is on a separate partition it'll add the only source of fsyncs besides checkpoint to the main data directory. I doubt it will make any difference in practice, at least on reasonable hardware (which you should have, if fsync performance matters to you). But some performance testing will be necessary, I don't expect this to go in without that. It'd be helpful if you could describe the workload. I've a bit of a hard time believing this'll be worthwhile. The trouble is protections like this only seem worthwhile after the fact, when something happens. I think it's reasonable protection against issues similar to the one I reported ~2 weeks ago. YMMV. Meh. That argument can be used to justify about everything. Obviously we should be more careful about fsyncing files, including the directories. I do plan come back to your recent patch. My argument is that this is a reasonable protection against failures in that area - both our faults (in understanding the durability guarantees on a particular file system), or file system developer. Maybe it's not, because the chance of running into exactly the same issue in this part of code is negligible. Additionally this doesn't seem to take WAL replay into account? I think the comparison in StartupXLOG needs to be less strict, to allow cases when we actually replay more WAL segments. Is that what you mean? What I mean is that the value isn't updated during recovery, afaics. You could argue that minRecoveryPoint is that, in a way. Oh, right. Will fix if we conclude that the general idea makes sense. regards -- Tomas Vondra http://www.2ndQuadrant.com PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
On 2015-12-12 23:28:33 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: > On 12/12/2015 11:20 PM, Andres Freund wrote: > >On 2015-12-12 22:14:13 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: > >>this is the second improvement proposed in the thread [1] about ext4 data > >>loss issue. It adds another field to control file, tracking the last known > >>WAL segment. This does not eliminate the data loss, just the silent part of > >>it when the last segment gets lost (due to forgetting the rename, deleting > >>it by mistake or whatever). The patch makes sure the cluster refuses to > >>start if that happens. > > > >Uh, that's fairly expensive. In many cases it'll significantly > >increase the number of fsyncs. > > It should do exactly 1 additional fsync per WAL segment. Or do you think > otherwise? Which is nearly doubling the number of fsyncs, for a good number of workloads. And it does so to a separate file, i.e. it's not like these writes and the flushes can be combined. In workloads where pg_xlog is on a separate partition it'll add the only source of fsyncs besides checkpoint to the main data directory. > > I've a bit of a hard time believing this'll be worthwhile. > > The trouble is protections like this only seem worthwhile after the fact, > when something happens. I think it's reasonable protection against issues > similar to the one I reported ~2 weeks ago. YMMV. Meh. That argument can be used to justify about everything. Obviously we should be more careful about fsyncing files, including the directories. I do plan come back to your recent patch. > > Additionally this doesn't seem to take WAL replay into account? > > I think the comparison in StartupXLOG needs to be less strict, to allow > cases when we actually replay more WAL segments. Is that what you mean? What I mean is that the value isn't updated during recovery, afaics. You could argue that minRecoveryPoint is that, in a way. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
On 12/12/2015 11:20 PM, Andres Freund wrote: Hi, On 2015-12-12 22:14:13 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: this is the second improvement proposed in the thread [1] about ext4 data loss issue. It adds another field to control file, tracking the last known WAL segment. This does not eliminate the data loss, just the silent part of it when the last segment gets lost (due to forgetting the rename, deleting it by mistake or whatever). The patch makes sure the cluster refuses to start if that happens. Uh, that's fairly expensive. In many cases it'll significantly increase the number of fsyncs. It should do exactly 1 additional fsync per WAL segment. Or do you think otherwise? > I've a bit of a hard time believing this'll be worthwhile. The trouble is protections like this only seem worthwhile after the fact, when something happens. I think it's reasonable protection against issues similar to the one I reported ~2 weeks ago. YMMV. > Additionally this doesn't seem to take WAL replay into account? I think the comparison in StartupXLOG needs to be less strict, to allow cases when we actually replay more WAL segments. Is that what you mean? regards -- Tomas Vondra http://www.2ndQuadrant.com PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] PATCH: track last known XLOG segment in control file
Hi, On 2015-12-12 22:14:13 +0100, Tomas Vondra wrote: > this is the second improvement proposed in the thread [1] about ext4 data > loss issue. It adds another field to control file, tracking the last known > WAL segment. This does not eliminate the data loss, just the silent part of > it when the last segment gets lost (due to forgetting the rename, deleting > it by mistake or whatever). The patch makes sure the cluster refuses to > start if that happens. Uh, that's fairly expensive. In many cases it'll significantly increase the number of fsyncs. I've a bit of a hard time believing this'll be worthwhile. Additionally this doesn't seem to take WAL replay into account? Andres -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
