Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Merlin Moncure mmonc...@gmail.com wrote: Facts are not subject to copyright but compilations can be. I know it's popular for engineers to play lawyer and I've been guilty of it on many an occasion. But in this case I think you're all *way* oversimplifying the situation and I don't think it's within our ken to be able to come to any clear conclusion. Well, I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not volunteering to be counsel for Messrs. Olson et al. But I can recognize a troll when I see one. More to the point, this is an attack on a fundamental piece of open source infrastructure, and I'm quite sure that a lot of large companies will be stepping up to help ensure that it stays open. I feel no need for us to do anything, until and unless there's an adverse court ruling, which I fully expect there will not be. And if there is, we won't be the only ones looking for an alternative solution. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On 10/07/2011 11:02 PM, Greg Stark wrote: All that said I think this is far murkier than you all seem to think. Copyright law is one of the most complex areas of the law and this is one of the least well defined parts of copyright law. Hi Greg: I don't think we all think this issue is clear. Quoting relevant case law and considering what position to hold or what action to take is what I would call due diligence. If somebody wants to hire a lawyer that might be advisable as well. I think wait and see whether this is a true violation is a perfectly valid legal position to hold and is not pretending in any way that this issue is clear... -- Mark Mielkem...@mielke.cc -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On 10/05/2011 07:37 AM, Tom Lane wrote: davegda...@sonic.net writes: Postgresql 9.0.4 has the timezone: America/Blanc-Sablon However other sources seem to spell this with an underscore instead of dash: America/Blanc_Sablon I don't know what other sources you're consulting, but Blanc-Sablon is the way it appears in the Olson timezone database, and that's what we follow. Speaking of Olson tz database, I've just stumbled across this post and I thought it would be worthy to report it here: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html We're not going to get into the business of editorializing on their information. If you want to fool with it locally, look into the .../share/timezone/ directory. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
Andrea Suisani wrote: On 10/05/2011 07:37 AM, Tom Lane wrote: davegda...@sonic.net writes: Postgresql 9.0.4 has the timezone: America/Blanc-Sablon However other sources seem to spell this with an underscore instead of dash: America/Blanc_Sablon I don't know what other sources you're consulting, but Blanc-Sablon is the way it appears in the Olson timezone database, and that's what we follow. Speaking of Olson tz database, I've just stumbled across this post and I thought it would be worthy to report it here: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html I suppose there is nothing stopping them from attacking people who distribute the database, like Postgres, Red Hat, etc. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: Andrea Suisani wrote: Speaking of Olson tz database, I've just stumbled across this post and I thought it would be worthy to report it here: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html I suppose there is nothing stopping them from attacking people who distribute the database, like Postgres, Red Hat, etc. It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
Tom Lane wrote: Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: Andrea Suisani wrote: Speaking of Olson tz database, I've just stumbled across this post and I thought it would be worthy to report it here: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html I suppose there is nothing stopping them from attacking people who distribute the database, like Postgres, Red Hat, etc. It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. Agreed. I am just pointing out the possible exposure. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On 7 October 2011 21:27, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote: Tom Lane wrote: It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. Agreed. I am just pointing out the possible exposure. The one interesting case that I can recall were this was tested was this (lifted from Wikipedia): In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia, Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter of the questions in the game's Genus Edition had been taken from his books, even to the point of reproducing typographical errors and deliberately placed misinformation. One of the questions in Trivial Pursuit was What was Columbo's first name? with the answer Philip. That information had been fabricated to catch anyone who might try to violate his copyright.[5] The inventors of Trivial Pursuit acknowledged that Worth's books were among their sources, but argued that this was not improper and that facts are not protected by copyright. The district court judge agreed, ruling in favor of the Trivial Pursuit inventors. The decision was appealed, and in September 1987 the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the ruling.[6] Worth asked the Supreme Court of the United States to review the case, but the Court declined, denying certiorari in March 1988.[7] IANAL, but this seems pretty conclusive to me... -- Peter Geoghegan http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On 7 October 2011 21:17, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: Andrea Suisani wrote: Speaking of Olson tz database, I've just stumbled across this post and I thought it would be worthy to report it here: http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html I suppose there is nothing stopping them from attacking people who distribute the database, like Postgres, Red Hat, etc. It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. It's ironic that they're attacking those using these facts when their business is selling fiction poorly disguised as fact. -- Thom Brown Twitter: @darkixion IRC (freenode): dark_ixion Registered Linux user: #516935 EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Peter Geoghegan pe...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: On 7 October 2011 21:27, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote: Tom Lane wrote: It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. Agreed. I am just pointing out the possible exposure. The one interesting case that I can recall were this was tested was this (lifted from Wikipedia): In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia, Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter of the questions in the game's Genus Edition had been taken from his books, even to the point of reproducing typographical errors and deliberately placed misinformation. One of the questions in Trivial Pursuit was What was Columbo's first name? with the answer Philip. That information had been fabricated to catch anyone who might try to violate his copyright.[5] The inventors of Trivial Pursuit acknowledged that Worth's books were among their sources, but argued that this was not improper and that facts are not protected by copyright. The district court judge agreed, ruling in favor of the Trivial Pursuit inventors. The decision was appealed, and in September 1987 the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the ruling.[6] Worth asked the Supreme Court of the United States to review the case, but the Court declined, denying certiorari in March 1988.[7] IANAL, but this seems pretty conclusive to me... Facts are not subject to copyright but compilations can be. However, the arrangement and presentation of the compilation has to be sufficient to have merit protection. For example, the SCOTUS denied copywrite protection to phone books, which I think is entirely relevant to this issue. (BUT INAL). merlin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
My original read of the problem determined (for me personally) that the only way one could be in violation of copyright was if the data was incorrect (i.e. not factual). It presented an interesting contradiction. The only way they could sue is by agreeing that their data is faulty and should not be trusted. :-) The case Merlin refers to below seemed to rule that even faulty information is not a concern. Personally, I think the best choice is to officially state a position on the matter and agree to remove any copyrighted material that has been used without the permission of the copyright owner from PostgreSQL if or when this is ever demonstrated in court. Until that time, the damage to the community by responding to this unproven legal threat would be unreasonable to bear. On 10/07/2011 05:10 PM, Merlin Moncure wrote: The one interesting case that I can recall were this was tested was this (lifted from Wikipedia): In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia, Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. He claimed that more than a quarter of the questions in the game's Genus Edition had been taken from his books, even to the point of reproducing typographical errors and deliberately placed misinformation. One of the questions in Trivial Pursuit was What was Columbo's first name? with the answer Philip. That information had been fabricated to catch anyone who might try to violate his copyright.[5] The inventors of Trivial Pursuit acknowledged that Worth's books were among their sources, but argued that this was not improper and that facts are not protected by copyright. The district court judge agreed, ruling in favor of the Trivial Pursuit inventors. The decision was appealed, and in September 1987 the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the ruling.[6] Worth asked the Supreme Court of the United States to review the case, but the Court declined, denying certiorari in March 1988.[7] IANAL, but this seems pretty conclusive to me... Facts are not subject to copyright but compilations can be. However, the arrangement and presentation of the compilation has to be sufficient to have merit protection. For example, the SCOTUS denied copywrite protection to phone books, which I think is entirely relevant to this issue. (BUT INAL). -- Mark Mielkem...@mielke.cc -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Mark Mielke m...@mark.mielke.cc wrote: My original read of the problem determined (for me personally) that the only way one could be in violation of copyright was if the data was incorrect (i.e. not factual). It presented an interesting contradiction. The only way they could sue is by agreeing that their data is faulty and should not be trusted. :-) The case Merlin refers to below seemed to rule that even faulty information is not a concern. specifically, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural merlin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Merlin Moncure mmonc...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 October 2011 21:27, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote: Tom Lane wrote: It seems pretty baseless to me: you can't copyright a collection of facts. I think we should do nothing pending a court decision. The one interesting case that I can recall were this was tested was this (lifted from Wikipedia): In October 1984, Fred L. Worth, author of The Trivia Encyclopedia, Super Trivia, and Super Trivia II, filed a $300 million lawsuit against the distributors of Trivial Pursuit. Facts are not subject to copyright but compilations can be. I know it's popular for engineers to play lawyer and I've been guilty of it on many an occasion. But in this case I think you're all *way* oversimplifying the situation and I don't think it's within our ken to be able to come to any clear conclusion. a) Both the trivial pursuit case and the Feist predate a major change to US copyright statutes -- the DMCA. The DMCA implemented the WIPO Copyright Treaty which specifically addressed database compilation copyrights. I do not know how to interpret the language of the DMCA on this and frankly I'm not sure anybody knows since I don't know if there have been any major cases under it yet. If my guess is right the relevant section is 17 U.S.C. §§ 103. I'm not clear that a compilation that was made prior to the DMCA can suddenly acquire copyrights when if it had none before though. b) Both of these cases are US cases. Copyright law varies heavily from country to country despite the Berne and WIPO treaties. c) I don't think that resolving whether the Olson database would be covered even under Feist is so crystal clear as you guys make it out to be. *After* Feist but before the DMCA courts ruled in various cases that phone books and even a baseball score card *did* have enough originality to qualify for copyright. All that said I think this is far murkier than you all seem to think. Copyright law is one of the most complex areas of the law and this is one of the least well defined parts of copyright law. -- greg -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] [OT?] Time-zone database down [was: Re: timezone buglet?]
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Greg Stark st...@mit.edu wrote: All that said I think this is far murkier than you all seem to think. Copyright law is one of the most complex areas of the law and this is one of the least well defined parts of copyright law. imposing no natural restrictions have that effect ;) -- Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
