Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
Hello Alvaro, On 16.09.2011 15:08, Alvaro Herrera wrote: It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this idea. How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to me. Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it? (I, for one, had no

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011: On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for appropriate

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Dave Page
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com wrote: Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011: On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such a

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mar sep 20 10:51:51 -0300 2011: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread David Fetter
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 04:51:51PM +0300, Peter Eisentraut wrote: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for appropriate purposes. Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago. The blocking

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Josh Berkus
+1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for appropriate purposes. I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements for joining? Well, one requirement would be agreeing not to share

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO. Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by the big guys and their IP claims. Joe -- Sent via pgsql-hackers

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
On 19.09.2011 15:50, Josh Berkus wrote: +1 for a closed mailing list. It's a bit annoying to have to do such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for appropriate purposes. I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements for joining? Well, one

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread David Fetter
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO. Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by the big

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Andrew Dunstan
On 09/19/2011 12:20 PM, David Fetter wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO. Maybe it's time for an open source

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Christopher Browne
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO. Maybe

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
On 09/19/2011 12:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote: Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we don't have, as a community and

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Christopher Browne cbbro...@gmail.com writes: The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would be to participate in UnQL http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home. That's early enough in its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the popularity of NoSQL,

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Greg Smith
On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote: Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by the big guys and their IP claims. Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Pavel Stehule
2011/9/19 Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com: On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote: Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by the big guys and their IP claims. Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other vendors is one of the

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
Hi Greg, On 09/19/2011 04:44 PM, Greg Smith wrote: Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has vs. the big guys. There needs to be a pretty serious problem with your process before adding

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Josh Berkus
Folks, Can we move the discussion about hypothetical new standards groups over to -advocacy? This is getting a bit off-topic for -hackers. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Clark C. Evans
On Monday, September 19, 2011 9:20 AM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote: On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of everything which is wrong with the ISO.

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Darren Duncan
FYI, one of the main goals of the Muldis D language is to be an open source SQL standard. It is intended to satisfy both relational and NoSQL folks, and predates UnQL significantly. Muldis D has always been published openly and is comprehensive enough to cover anything that SQL does, and

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 07:38 -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote: So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special syntax drafted into the sql standard? Don't expect to take a PostgreSQL-specific feature, say,

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote: You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making other plans less than 2 years ago. For

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Dave Page
On Sunday, September 18, 2011, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote: You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Kevin Grittner
Susanne Ebrecht wrote: Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for taking the time to look out for community interests. The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts that needs decisions. As

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works outside the project is of no use

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Tom Lane
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes: On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote: That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said. Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-17 Thread Josh Berkus
And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc.

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-17 Thread Jaime Casanova
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too. I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff. Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports before/after each meeting

[HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
Hello all, what I saw on PHP unconference told me that I should ask all again. I feel lonely. Believe me it is a bad feeling when it seems that nobody has interests in what you are doing. Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. Always, when I suggested to talk

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Brendan Jurd
On 16 September 2011 16:24, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get published - on which I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? I don't fear to make decisions on my own - but

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Heikki Linnakangas
On 16.09.2011 09:24, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts that needs decisions. I am not allowed to share the drafts in public. Because the drafts are confidential. I think that's a big part of the problem. It's hard to get excited

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an employee of MySQL. We've had a number of discussions both online and at one of

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Merlin Moncure
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts that needs decisions. So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
Dave, On 16.09.2011 14:33, Dave Page wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an employee of MySQL. Nope. As

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee. With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an employee of MySQL. Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Susanne Ebrecht's message of vie sep 16 03:24:58 -0300 2011: Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get published - on which I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me? It's certainly possible to create a private

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
Heikki, On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people in the community with interests in particular topics, they could contact you and get

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote: My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents PostgreSQL. Dave, the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you. Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent your country. For

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote: My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents PostgreSQL. Dave, the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you. Because you

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Euler Taveira de Oliveira
On 16-09-2011 10:26, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people in the community with interests in particular

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
On 16.09.2011 14:38, Merlin Moncure wrote: So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought up at the ISO meeting? Is this an opportunity to get postgres special syntax drafted into the sql standard? Yes and no. You first need to convince your country and then - as

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht
On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote: other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the knowledge of others. Dave, I exactly did this

Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote: other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to raise before each meeting - not