Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Greg Stark st...@mit.edu wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:54 PM, decibel deci...@decibel.org wrote: Would it? Risk seems like it would just be something along the lines of the high-end of our estimate. I don't think confidence should be that hard either. IE: hard-coded guesses have a low confidence. Something pulled right out of most_common_vals has a high confidence. I wouldn't be so sure of that. I've run into cases where all of the frequencies pulled out of most_common_vals are off by orders of magnitude. The problem is that if ANALYZE only samples 1/1000th of the table, and it sees a value twice, it assumes the value is present 2000 times in the table, even when it was only in the table twice. Now, for any given value that occurs twice in the table, it is very unlikely for both of those to end up in the sample. But when you have millions of distinct values which each occur twice (or some low number of time), it is a near certainty that several of them are going to end with both instances in the sample. Those few ones that get lucky are of course going to end up in the most_common_vals list. Since the hashjoin estimates cost depending on the frequency of the most common value, having this be systematically off by a factor of 1000 is rather unfortunate. The problem here is that the sample size which is adequate for getting a good estimate of the histograms (which is what controls the sample size currently) is not adequate for getting a good estimate of most_common_vals. Cranking up the statistics_target would give a better estimates of most_common_vals, but at the expense of having a needlessly large histogram, which slows down planning. There is currently no knob to crank up the sample size for the sake of most common values, but then prune the histogram back down for storage. Cheers, Jeff
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Jeff Janes jeff.ja...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Greg Stark st...@mit.edu wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:54 PM, decibel deci...@decibel.org wrote: Would it? Risk seems like it would just be something along the lines of the high-end of our estimate. I don't think confidence should be that hard either. IE: hard-coded guesses have a low confidence. Something pulled right out of most_common_vals has a high confidence. I wouldn't be so sure of that. I've run into cases where all of the frequencies pulled out of most_common_vals are off by orders of magnitude. The problem is that if ANALYZE only samples 1/1000th of the table, and it sees a value twice, it assumes the value is present 2000 times in the table, even when it was only in the table twice. Now, for any given value that occurs twice in the table, it is very unlikely for both of those to end up in the sample. But when you have millions of distinct values which each occur twice (or some low number of time), it is a near certainty that several of them are going to end with both instances in the sample. Those few ones that get lucky are of course going to end up in the most_common_vals list. Especially if there's some locality of occurrence, since analyze samples pages, not rows. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.frwrote: Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: for estimate_worstcase_fraction. So, when computing the cost of a path, we'd compute our current expected-case estimate, and also a worst-case estimate, and then compute the final cost as: There also was the idea for the executor to be able to handle alternate plans and some heuristic to determine that the actual cost of running a plan is much higher than what's been estimated, so much so as to switch to starting from scratch with the other plan instead. Or even before it starts executing. If the planner realizes the stakes are high enough, it could abandon its assumptions about how likely it is for a block to be in cache, and go do a little sampling of the cache and see. To be effective it would probably have to sample the OS cache as well as the shared_buffers, which would certain complicate things and might not be portable. Of course right now there is no explicit estimate about the cache hit rate at all, they are just implicitly built into other settings. So those would probably need to be separated into true IO cost, and a default cache estimate to used when sampling is not warranted. Cheers, Jeff
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Claudio Freire klaussfre...@gmail.comwrote: Especially if there's some locality of occurrence, since analyze samples pages, not rows. But it doesn't take all rows in each sampled page. It generally takes about one row per page, specifically to avoid the problem you indicate. Maybe it is possible to trick it into taking too many (for example, if most pages are completely empty), but I haven't experienced that as being a problem. Cheers, Jeff
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Jeff Janes jeff.ja...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Claudio Freire klaussfre...@gmail.com wrote: Especially if there's some locality of occurrence, since analyze samples pages, not rows. But it doesn't take all rows in each sampled page. It generally takes about one row per page, specifically to avoid the problem you indicate. Maybe it is possible to trick it into taking too many (for example, if most pages are completely empty), but I haven't experienced that as being a problem. Still, I remember a discussion where it was clear there was a bias towards sampling rows from the same page (or nearby), resulting in this particular problem. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Greg Stark st...@mit.edu wrote: I used to advocate a similar idea. But when questioned on list I tried to work out the details and ran into some problem coming up with a concrete plan. How do you compare a plan that you think has a 99% chance of running in 1ms but a 1% chance of taking 1s against a plan that has a 90% chance of 1ms and a 10% chance of taking 100ms? Which one is actually riskier? They might even both have the same 95% percentile run-time. And additionally there are different types of unknowns. Do you want to treat plans where we have a statistical sample that gives us a probabilistic answer the same as plans where we think our model just has a 10% chance of being wrong? The model is going to either be consistently right or consistently wrong for a given query but the sample will vary from run to run. (Or vice versa depending on the situation). One idea that someone through up against a wall recently during an EnterpriseDB development meeting - I think it was Kevin Grittner but it might have been Noah Misch, or some combination - was to have a GUC for estimate_worstcase_fraction. So, when computing the cost of a path, we'd compute our current expected-case estimate, and also a worst-case estimate, and then compute the final cost as: estimated_cost = estimate_worstcase_fraction * worst_case_estimate + (1 - estimate_worstcase_fraction) * expected_case_estimate I think Kevin and I both have the intuition that even a rather small value for estimate_worstcase_fraction - like 0.01 or 0.001 or even smaller - would prevent a pretty significant fraction of the problems people encounter in this area. But users could change it, in general or for particular queries, if it ended up being wrong in their environment. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: for estimate_worstcase_fraction. So, when computing the cost of a path, we'd compute our current expected-case estimate, and also a worst-case estimate, and then compute the final cost as: There also was the idea for the executor to be able to handle alternate plans and some heuristic to determine that the actual cost of running a plan is much higher than what's been estimated, so much so as to switch to starting from scratch with the other plan instead. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr wrote: Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: for estimate_worstcase_fraction. So, when computing the cost of a path, we'd compute our current expected-case estimate, and also a worst-case estimate, and then compute the final cost as: There also was the idea for the executor to be able to handle alternate plans and some heuristic to determine that the actual cost of running a plan is much higher than what's been estimated, so much so as to switch to starting from scratch with the other plan instead. Yeah. The thing is, if the plan has any side effects, that's not really an option. And even if it doesn't, it may throw away a lot of work. One thing we could do is switch from a unparameterized nested loop to a hash join if the outer side turns out to be much larger than expected, but that's only going to benefit a pretty narrow set of use cases. Which is why I think a planner-based approach is probably more promising. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Friday, April 05, 2013 1:59 AM Robert Haas wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr wrote: Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes: for estimate_worstcase_fraction. So, when computing the cost of a path, we'd compute our current expected-case estimate, and also a worst-case estimate, and then compute the final cost as: There also was the idea for the executor to be able to handle alternate plans and some heuristic to determine that the actual cost of running a plan is much higher than what's been estimated, so much so as to switch to starting from scratch with the other plan instead. Yeah. The thing is, if the plan has any side effects, that's not really an option. And even if it doesn't, it may throw away a lot of work. Why to throw away all the work, it could as well try to repair the plan or even if plan repair is not possible, it can keep multiple plans and next time can try to choose best among available one's. With Regards, Amit Kapila. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:54 PM, decibel deci...@decibel.org wrote: Would it? Risk seems like it would just be something along the lines of the high-end of our estimate. I don't think confidence should be that hard either. IE: hard-coded guesses have a low confidence. Something pulled right out of most_common_vals has a high confidence. Something estimated via a bucket is in-between, and perhaps adjusted by the number of tuples. I used to advocate a similar idea. But when questioned on list I tried to work out the details and ran into some problem coming up with a concrete plan. How do you compare a plan that you think has a 99% chance of running in 1ms but a 1% chance of taking 1s against a plan that has a 90% chance of 1ms and a 10% chance of taking 100ms? Which one is actually riskier? They might even both have the same 95% percentile run-time. And additionally there are different types of unknowns. Do you want to treat plans where we have a statistical sample that gives us a probabilistic answer the same as plans where we think our model just has a 10% chance of being wrong? The model is going to either be consistently right or consistently wrong for a given query but the sample will vary from run to run. (Or vice versa depending on the situation). -- greg
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Aug 20, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think you have to set your expectations pretty low. If the estimates are bad there isn't really any plan that will be guaranteed to run quickly. Well, the way to do this is via a risk-confidence system. That is, each operation has a level of risk assigned to it; that is, the cost multiplier if the estimates are wrong. And each estimate has a level of confidence attached. Then you can divide the risk by the confidence, and if it exceeds a certain level, you pick another plan which has a lower risk/confidence level. However, the amount of extra calculations required for even a simple query are kind of frightning. Would it? Risk seems like it would just be something along the lines of the high-end of our estimate. I don't think confidence should be that hard either. IE: hard-coded guesses have a low confidence. Something pulled right out of most_common_vals has a high confidence. Something estimated via a bucket is in-between, and perhaps adjusted by the number of tuples. -- Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect deci...@decibel.org Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828 -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
There have been a number of planner improvement ideas that have been thrown out because of the overhead they would add to the planning process, specifically for queries that would otherwise be quiet fast. Other databases seem to have dealt with this by creating plan caches (which might be worth doing for Postgres), but what if we could determine when we need a fast planning time vs when it won't matter? What I'm thinking is that on the first pass through the planner, we only estimate things that we can do quickly. If the plan that falls out of that is below a certain cost/row threshold, we just run with that plan. If not, we go back and do a more detailed estimate. -- Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect deci...@decibel.org Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828 -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:15 AM, decibeldeci...@decibel.org wrote: There have been a number of planner improvement ideas that have been thrown out because of the overhead they would add to the planning process, specifically for queries that would otherwise be quiet fast. Other databases seem to have dealt with this by creating plan caches (which might be worth doing for Postgres), but what if we could determine when we need a fast planning time vs when it won't matter? What I'm thinking is that on the first pass through the planner, we only estimate things that we can do quickly. If the plan that falls out of that is below a certain cost/row threshold, we just run with that plan. If not, we go back and do a more detailed estimate. It's not a dumb idea, but it might be hard to set that threshold correctly. You might have some queries that you know take 4 seconds (and you don't want to spend another 200 ms planning them every time for no benefit) and other queries that only take 500 ms (but you know that they can be squashed down to 150 ms with a bit more planning). I think one of the problems with the planner is that all decisions are made on the basis of cost. Honestly, it works amazingly well in a wide variety of situations, but it can't handle things like we might as well materialize here, because it doesn't cost much and there's a big upside if our estimates are off. The estimates are the world, and you live and die by them. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: I think one of the problems with the planner is that all decisions are made on the basis of cost. Honestly, it works amazingly well in a wide variety of situations, but it can't handle things like we might as well materialize here, because it doesn't cost much and there's a big upside if our estimates are off. The estimates are the world, and you live and die by them. [thinking out loud] If there were some reasonable way to come up with a *range* for cost at each step, a reasonable heuristic might be to cost the plan using minimum values and maximum values, and use the root mean square of the two for comparisons to other plans. I don't know that we have a good basis to come up with ranges rather than absolute numbers, though. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Kevin Grittnerkevin.gritt...@wicourts.gov wrote: Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: I think one of the problems with the planner is that all decisions are made on the basis of cost. Honestly, it works amazingly well in a wide variety of situations, but it can't handle things like we might as well materialize here, because it doesn't cost much and there's a big upside if our estimates are off. The estimates are the world, and you live and die by them. [thinking out loud] If there were some reasonable way to come up with a *range* for cost at each step, a reasonable heuristic might be to cost the plan using minimum values and maximum values, and use the root mean square of the two for comparisons to other plans. I don't know that we have a good basis to come up with ranges rather than absolute numbers, though. Maybe. The problem is that we have mostly two cases: an estimate that we think is pretty good based on reasonable statistics (but may be way off if there are hidden correlations we don't know about), and a wild guess. Also, it doesn't tend to matter very much when the estimates are off by, say, a factor of two. The real problem is when they are off by an order of magnitude or more. ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Robert Haasrobertmh...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe. The problem is that we have mostly two cases: an estimate that we think is pretty good based on reasonable statistics (but may be way off if there are hidden correlations we don't know about), and a wild guess. Also, it doesn't tend to matter very much when the estimates are off by, say, a factor of two. The real problem is when they are off by an order of magnitude or more. One problem is that you can't just take a range of row estimates and calculate a cost for both endpoints of the estimate range to get a cost estimate. It's quite possible for more rows to generate a lower cost (think if you have a NOT IN query). Another problem is that it's not really helpful to have a range of costs unless you can actually make use of them to make decisions. The planner doesn't come up with multiple independent complete plans and then pick the one with the cheapest cost. It has to make some decisions along the way to avoid exponential growth. Those decisions might have a tightly constrained cost but cause higher nodes to have very wide cost ranges (think of deciding not to materialize something which later gets put on the outer side of a nested loop). But there's no way to know at the time that they'll be critical to avoiding that risky plan later. I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think you have to set your expectations pretty low. If the estimates are bad there isn't really any plan that will be guaranteed to run quickly. -- greg http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Greg Starkgsst...@mit.edu wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think you have to set your expectations pretty low. If the estimates are bad there isn't really any plan that will be guaranteed to run quickly. Actually this is usually Tom's point when this topic comes up. Say you're deciding between an index scan and a sequential scan. The sequential scan has a total cost of 1000..1000 but the index scan has an estimated total cost of 1..1. If you pick the sequential scan you might be running 1000x slower than the index scan in the worst case. But if you pick the index scan you might be running 10x slower than the sequential scan in the worst case. If you don't trust the estimate where does that leave you? Making a mistake either way is fatal. -- greg http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
Greg Stark gsst...@mit.edu wrote: Say you're deciding between an index scan and a sequential scan. The sequential scan has a total cost of 1000..1000 but the index scan has an estimated total cost of 1..1. My proposal was to use RMS, which would effectively favor lower worst case behavior. Specifically, if the estimated cost range is 1000..1000 you get sqrt((1000*1000+1000*1000)/2) = 1000, while 1..1 yields sqrt((1*1+1*1)/2) = 7071.067847. So with this heuristic it would prefer the sequential scan. Of course, for these purposes, you would get the same choices by leaving off the division and square root calculation, so it could simplify to choosing the lower of 1000*1000+1000*1000 versus 1*1+1*1. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
In a federated database engine I built in the mid-90's, it more or less ran both plans in parallel, to implement fast-first and min-total cost. The index query in general started returning rows whose oids went into a filter that discarded them from the serial query once it started to crank things out. 'index' and 'serial' is not exactly what was going on; the federated engine was joining multiple tables across multiple (sometimes hundreds) of databases, with really variable transmission times, and tolerance for timed-out db servers. It had no reliable way to get cost estimates in advance, since it didn't have access to statistical metadata (no, Postgres wasn't one of the databases I had to take as input, more's the pity). 'Parallel' is also not quite accurate. It retained plans (queries were heavily repeated) and did mickey-mouse simulated annealing of past performance, so that if one of two plans was the faster 90% of the time, then there was a 10% probability it would run both plans in parallel, just to check whether something had changed. The code was part of a proprietary product, and was used by Acxiom and Cisco. But the concept was pretty simple and as described above. -Original Message- From: pgsql-hackers-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Greg Stark Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:32 AM To: Robert Haas Cc: Kevin Grittner; decibel; Pg Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Greg Starkgsst...@mit.edu wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think you have to set your expectations pretty low. If the estimates are bad there isn't really any plan that will be guaranteed to run quickly. Actually this is usually Tom's point when this topic comes up. Say you're deciding between an index scan and a sequential scan. The sequential scan has a total cost of 1000..1000 but the index scan has an estimated total cost of 1..1. If you pick the sequential scan you might be running 1000x slower than the index scan in the worst case. But if you pick the index scan you might be running 10x slower than the sequential scan in the worst case. If you don't trust the estimate where does that leave you? Making a mistake either way is fatal. -- greg http://mit.edu/~gsstark/resume.pdf -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Multi-pass planner
I don't think it's a bad idea, I just think you have to set your expectations pretty low. If the estimates are bad there isn't really any plan that will be guaranteed to run quickly. Well, the way to do this is via a risk-confidence system. That is, each operation has a level of risk assigned to it; that is, the cost multiplier if the estimates are wrong. And each estimate has a level of confidence attached. Then you can divide the risk by the confidence, and if it exceeds a certain level, you pick another plan which has a lower risk/confidence level. However, the amount of extra calculations required for even a simple query are kind of frightning. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. www.pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
