Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-10-21 Thread Robert Haas 
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Peter Eisentraut
 wrote:
> On 8/16/16 1:05 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Oh, interesting.  It had occurred to me that we might be able to dodge
>> this issue if we started to recommend using unnamed POSIX semaphores
>> instead of SysV.  (Obviously we'd want to check performance, but it's
>> at least a plausible alternative.)  I had not wanted to go there if
>> it meant that we could have silent loss of SysV shmem with no other
>> symptoms, because as I said upthread, I'm concerned about that breaking
>> the multiple-postmaster interlock.  However, if the cleanup kills only
>> semaphores and not attached-to shmem, then that objection goes away and
>> this becomes something we should seriously consider.
>
> I was digging around this issue the other day again.  We have switched
> to unnamed POSIX semaphores by default now, which will help.  But for
> dynamic shared memory (DSM) we use POSIX shared memory by default, which
> is cleaned up without regarding to attachment.  So there is still a
> potential for failures here, possibly more rare or obscure, given the
> usage of DSM.

The reason I did it that way is because System V shared memory is
often subject to very low limits on how much can be allocated, which
can also produce failures.  It would be easy to switch the default
implementation from POSIX to System V, but I suspect that would be a
loser overall -- in other words, I suspect that if we switched the
default, more people would get hosed by not being able to create those
segments in the first place than are currently getting hosed by having
them removed prematurely.

Also, POSIX shared memory segments at least on Linux are implemented
as files.  If you remove a file, people who have it open can normally
continue to access it.  So it might work OK as long as the file isn't
removed until after everybody involved in a parallel query has already
attached.  That's a dangerous thing to bet on, though, because the DSM
facility also supports server-lifetime DSMs.  We're not using those
capabilities right now in core, but we might start - e.g. Magnus was
suggesting that we could use DSMs plus Thomas Munro's DSA and DHT
patches to replace the stats collector or the temp files used by
pg_stat_statements.

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-10-21 Thread Peter Eisentraut 
On 8/16/16 1:05 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Oh, interesting.  It had occurred to me that we might be able to dodge
> this issue if we started to recommend using unnamed POSIX semaphores
> instead of SysV.  (Obviously we'd want to check performance, but it's
> at least a plausible alternative.)  I had not wanted to go there if
> it meant that we could have silent loss of SysV shmem with no other
> symptoms, because as I said upthread, I'm concerned about that breaking
> the multiple-postmaster interlock.  However, if the cleanup kills only
> semaphores and not attached-to shmem, then that objection goes away and
> this becomes something we should seriously consider.

I was digging around this issue the other day again.  We have switched
to unnamed POSIX semaphores by default now, which will help.  But for
dynamic shared memory (DSM) we use POSIX shared memory by default, which
is cleaned up without regarding to attachment.  So there is still a
potential for failures here, possibly more rare or obscure, given the
usage of DSM.

(If someone is keeping score, it appears the "safest" combination is
SysV shared memory + POSIX semaphores.)

I have started a wiki page to collect this information:
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd

To be continued, I suppose ...

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Tom Lane 
Peter Eisentraut  writes:
> A brief look through the code and some reading between the lines of the
> documentation shows that it only cleans up shared memory segments that
> are no longer attached to, but there is no such check for semaphores.

Oh, interesting.  It had occurred to me that we might be able to dodge
this issue if we started to recommend using unnamed POSIX semaphores
instead of SysV.  (Obviously we'd want to check performance, but it's
at least a plausible alternative.)  I had not wanted to go there if
it meant that we could have silent loss of SysV shmem with no other
symptoms, because as I said upthread, I'm concerned about that breaking
the multiple-postmaster interlock.  However, if the cleanup kills only
semaphores and not attached-to shmem, then that objection goes away and
this becomes something we should seriously consider.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Peter Eisentraut 
On 8/16/16 11:24 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Not sure I believe that --- the cases that have been reported to us
> involved postgres processes that were still alive but had had their
> SysV semaphore sets deleted out from under them.  Likely the SysV
> shmem segments too, but that wouldn't cause any observable effects
> for the running cluster.  (It *would* risk breaking the interlock
> against starting a new postmaster, I fear.)
> 
> It might be that both behaviors exist now but more people know about
> how to turn off the killing-processes one.

They are two separate things.

Both are controlled by settings in logind.conf.

RemoveIPC=

controls whether System V IPC objects are removed when a user logs out.
System users are exempt.

This was turned on by default in systemd version 212 (2014-03-25).

RHEL7 ships 219.  Debian stable ships 215.

Apparently, the systemd package in RHEL7 is built with it defaulting to
off.  The package in Debian defaults to on, but I can't actually
reproduce the issue.

A brief look through the code and some reading between the lines of the
documentation shows that it only cleans up shared memory segments that
are no longer attached to, but there is no such check for semaphores.

So there are some issues here to be worked out.


KillUserProcesses=

controls whether all processes of a user should be killed when the user
logs out.  This was turned on by default in systemd version 230
(2016-05-21).  This is not yet shipped widely (Fedora Branched/25,
Debian testing, stable-backports).

There are various ways to adjust that, including the KillOnlyUsers=,
KillExcludeUsers=, loginctl enable-linger, systemd-run.  These are all
explained on the logind.conf man page.  (Being a "system user" has no
influence here.)

This will clearly result in some wide-spread annoyance among users and
some wide-spread rejoicing among system administrators, but other than
that I don't see a potential harm specific to PostgreSQL here.


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Magnus Hagander 
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Magnus Hagander  writes:
> > On Aug 16, 2016 5:11 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
> >> Dunno, it was still working the last time I used Fedora for anything
> much.
> >> Admittedly, that was about three years ago.  But the issue would still
> >> arise if you prefer "pg_ctl start".
>
> > There are two independent changes AFAIK. One is that whenever a user that
> > logged in interactively logs out all their processes are killed,
> regardless
> > of nohup. The other one is the one about shared memory mentioned here.
> They
> > will both independently kill postgres sessions launched manually. Or with
> > pg_ctl.
>
> Not sure I believe that --- the cases that have been reported to us
> involved postgres processes that were still alive but had had their
> SysV semaphore sets deleted out from under them.  Likely the SysV
> shmem segments too, but that wouldn't cause any observable effects
> for the running cluster.  (It *would* risk breaking the interlock
> against starting a new postmaster, I fear.)
>
> It might be that both behaviors exist now but more people know about
> how to turn off the killing-processes one.
>
>
Yes, I think it's the second. See for example
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394. You can configure
KillUserProcesses=no in logind.conf to get rid of it (that bug discusses
the debian default behaviour).



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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Tom Lane 
Magnus Hagander  writes:
> On Aug 16, 2016 5:11 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
>> Dunno, it was still working the last time I used Fedora for anything much.
>> Admittedly, that was about three years ago.  But the issue would still
>> arise if you prefer "pg_ctl start".

> There are two independent changes AFAIK. One is that whenever a user that
> logged in interactively logs out all their processes are killed, regardless
> of nohup. The other one is the one about shared memory mentioned here. They
> will both independently kill postgres sessions launched manually. Or with
> pg_ctl.

Not sure I believe that --- the cases that have been reported to us
involved postgres processes that were still alive but had had their
SysV semaphore sets deleted out from under them.  Likely the SysV
shmem segments too, but that wouldn't cause any observable effects
for the running cluster.  (It *would* risk breaking the interlock
against starting a new postmaster, I fear.)

It might be that both behaviors exist now but more people know about
how to turn off the killing-processes one.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Magnus Hagander 
On Aug 16, 2016 5:11 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
>
> Magnus Hagander  writes:
> > On Aug 16, 2016 4:43 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
> >> Rather, the problem arises when J. Ordinary User does
> >> nohup postmaster &
> >> and then logs out.
>
> > I think this is a partially different issue though. They already broke
the
> > nohup approach earlier with a different change, didn't they?
>
> Dunno, it was still working the last time I used Fedora for anything much.
> Admittedly, that was about three years ago.  But the issue would still
> arise if you prefer "pg_ctl start".
>

There are two independent changes AFAIK. One is that whenever a user that
logged in interactively logs out all their processes are killed, regardless
of nohup. The other one is the one about shared memory mentioned here. They
will both independently kill postgres sessions launched manually. Or with
pg_ctl.

Both are fairly recent changes, certainly less than three years.

/Magnus

Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Tom Lane 
Magnus Hagander  writes:
> On Aug 16, 2016 4:43 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
>> Rather, the problem arises when J. Ordinary User does
>> nohup postmaster &
>> and then logs out.

> I think this is a partially different issue though. They already broke the
> nohup approach earlier with a different change, didn't they?

Dunno, it was still working the last time I used Fedora for anything much.
Admittedly, that was about three years ago.  But the issue would still
arise if you prefer "pg_ctl start".

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Magnus Hagander 
On Aug 16, 2016 4:43 PM, "Tom Lane"  wrote:
>
> Peter Eisentraut  writes:
> > On 8/16/16 8:53 AM, Greg Stark wrote:
> >> That's a system level change though. How would a normal user manage
this?
>
> > Arguably, if you are a normal user, you probably shouldn't be using
> > systemd to start system services under your own account.
>
> I'm not totally sure, but I think that the complaints were not about
> systemd-driven services.  (In such a case, it's almost certainly possible
> to fix it by adjusting your systemd unit definition file, anyway.)
> Rather, the problem arises when J. Ordinary User does
>
> nohup postmaster &
>
> and then logs out.  That's certainly not much of a recipe for production
> services but people have been known to do it for testing --- in fact,
> that's pretty much what I do every day with test postmasters.  I suppose
> whenever I migrate to a recent-systemd-based distro I'm going to have to
> turn off this miserable excuse for a feature.  I sure hope there's a way
> to do so.

I think this is a partially different issue though. They already broke the
nohup approach earlier with a different change, didn't they?

/Magnus

Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Tom Lane 
Peter Eisentraut  writes:
> On 8/16/16 8:53 AM, Greg Stark wrote:
>> That's a system level change though. How would a normal user manage this?

> Arguably, if you are a normal user, you probably shouldn't be using
> systemd to start system services under your own account.

I'm not totally sure, but I think that the complaints were not about
systemd-driven services.  (In such a case, it's almost certainly possible
to fix it by adjusting your systemd unit definition file, anyway.)
Rather, the problem arises when J. Ordinary User does

nohup postmaster &

and then logs out.  That's certainly not much of a recipe for production
services but people have been known to do it for testing --- in fact,
that's pretty much what I do every day with test postmasters.  I suppose
whenever I migrate to a recent-systemd-based distro I'm going to have to
turn off this miserable excuse for a feature.  I sure hope there's a way
to do so.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Peter Eisentraut 
On 8/16/16 8:53 AM, Greg Stark wrote:
> That's a system level change though. How would a normal user manage this?

Arguably, if you are a normal user, you probably shouldn't be using
systemd to start system services under your own account.

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Greg Stark 
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:41 AM, Josh Berkus  wrote:
> Presumably people just need to add the system account tag to the unit
> file, no?

That's a system level change though. How would a normal user manage this?

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-16 Thread Craig Ringer 
On 16 August 2016 at 08:33, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Josh Berkus  writes:
> > On 08/15/2016 05:18 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> Well, yeah, it's easy to fix once you know you need to do so.  The
> >> complaint is basically that out-of-the-box, it's broken, and it's
> >> not very clear what was gained by breaking it.
>
> > You're welcome to argue with Lennart about that.
>
> Hah!  I can think of more pleasant ways of wasting my time.
> 
>

I tried to ask on that bug for some more clarity on what exactly a "system
account" was, where this behaviour was documented, whether it should really
determine the system account uid threshold at COMPILE TIME by reading
login.defs from configure (!), etc.

I just got a "take it to the mailing list" sort of dismissal. I'd rather
stick my hand in a meat grinder than post to the systemd mailing list,
especially given the way the prior discussion on the topic went based on
the archives, so I left it at that.

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Tom Lane 
Josh Berkus  writes:
> On 08/15/2016 05:18 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Well, yeah, it's easy to fix once you know you need to do so.  The
>> complaint is basically that out-of-the-box, it's broken, and it's
>> not very clear what was gained by breaking it.

> You're welcome to argue with Lennart about that.

Hah!  I can think of more pleasant ways of wasting my time.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Josh Berkus 
On 08/15/2016 05:18 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Josh Berkus  writes:
>> On 08/15/2016 02:43 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>>> Last I heard, there's an exclusion for "system" accounts, so an
>>> installation that's using the Fedora-provided pgsql account isn't
>>> going to have a problem.  It's homebrew installs running under
>>> ordinary-user accounts that are at risk.
> 
>> Presumably people just need to add the system account tag to the unit
>> file, no?
> 
> Well, yeah, it's easy to fix once you know you need to do so.  The
> complaint is basically that out-of-the-box, it's broken, and it's
> not very clear what was gained by breaking it.

You're welcome to argue with Lennart about that.  I'm not personally
supporting the feature, I just don't think it's that hard to work around.

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Tom Lane 
Josh Berkus  writes:
> On 08/15/2016 02:43 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>> Last I heard, there's an exclusion for "system" accounts, so an
>> installation that's using the Fedora-provided pgsql account isn't
>> going to have a problem.  It's homebrew installs running under
>> ordinary-user accounts that are at risk.

> Presumably people just need to add the system account tag to the unit
> file, no?

Well, yeah, it's easy to fix once you know you need to do so.  The
complaint is basically that out-of-the-box, it's broken, and it's
not very clear what was gained by breaking it.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Josh Berkus 
On 08/15/2016 02:43 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Josh Berkus  writes:
>> On 07/10/2016 10:56 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory)
>>> when a user "fully" logs out.
> 
>> That looks like it was under discussion in April, though.  Do we have
>> confirmation it was never fixed?  I'm not seeing systemd killing
>> Postgres under Fedora24.
> 
> Last I heard, there's an exclusion for "system" accounts, so an
> installation that's using the Fedora-provided pgsql account isn't
> going to have a problem.  It's homebrew installs running under
> ordinary-user accounts that are at risk.

Presumably people just need to add the system account tag to the unit
file, no?


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Tom Lane 
Josh Berkus  writes:
> On 07/10/2016 10:56 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory)
>> when a user "fully" logs out.

> That looks like it was under discussion in April, though.  Do we have
> confirmation it was never fixed?  I'm not seeing systemd killing
> Postgres under Fedora24.

Last I heard, there's an exclusion for "system" accounts, so an
installation that's using the Fedora-provided pgsql account isn't
going to have a problem.  It's homebrew installs running under
ordinary-user accounts that are at risk.

But they might have changed the policy some more since then.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-08-15 Thread Josh Berkus 
On 07/10/2016 10:56 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Hackers,
> 
> This just came across my twitter feed:
> 
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-April/018373.html
> 
> tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory)
> when a user "fully" logs out.

That looks like it was under discussion in April, though.  Do we have
confirmation it was never fixed?  I'm not seeing systemd killing
Postgres under Fedora24.


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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-07-11 Thread Craig Ringer 
On 11 July 2016 at 17:49, Bernd Helmle  wrote:

>
>
> --On 11. Juli 2016 13:25:51 +0800 Craig Ringer 
> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps by uid threshold in login.defs?
>
> systemd's configure.ac has this:
>
> AC_ARG_WITH(system-uid-max,
> AS_HELP_STRING([--with-system-uid-max=UID]
> [Maximum UID for system users]),
> [SYSTEM_UID_MAX="$withval"],
> [SYSTEM_UID_MAX="`awk 'BEGIN { uid=999 } /^\s*SYS_UID_MAX\s+/ {
> uid=$2 } END { print uid }' /etc/login.defs 2>/dev/null || echo 999`"])
>
> so yes, it's the definition from there.
>

At COMPILE TIME?

W.T.F?

In the thread about this, someone even says that's a bad idea. The systemd
folks aren't really big on listening, though...

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-07-11 Thread Bernd Helmle 


--On 11. Juli 2016 13:25:51 +0800 Craig Ringer 
wrote:

> Perhaps by uid threshold in login.defs?

systemd's configure.ac has this:

AC_ARG_WITH(system-uid-max,
AS_HELP_STRING([--with-system-uid-max=UID]
[Maximum UID for system users]),
[SYSTEM_UID_MAX="$withval"],
[SYSTEM_UID_MAX="`awk 'BEGIN { uid=999 } /^\s*SYS_UID_MAX\s+/ {
uid=$2 } END { print uid }' /etc/login.defs 2>/dev/null || echo 999`"])

so yes, it's the definition from there.

> But then what happens for people
> who're managing users via a directory, who need to avoid conflicting with
> host-local UIDs, but also need some of those users to have systemd
> "system user" like behaviour?

We had this in the past in some setups and this would add another reason
for unexpected headaches...

-- 
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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-07-10 Thread Craig Ringer 
On 11 July 2016 at 01:56, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:

> Hackers,
>
> This just came across my twitter feed:
>
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-April/018373.html
>
> tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory) when
> a user "fully" logs out.
>
>
The underlying change sounds like a fix, not a problem. It ensures that
when a user logs out, various dangling processes are cleaned up. Given the
amount of work PostgreSQL has to do to try to make sure it's really gone,
having systemd be able to just clobber everything is pretty nice. So long
as there's control over it.

However, it will break existing deployments that use "non-system" users to
run PostgreSQL. I had a look and didn't find any useful definition of what
systemd considers a "system user". Perhaps by uid threshold in login.defs?
But then what happens for people who're managing users via a directory, who
need to avoid conflicting with host-local UIDs, but also need some of those
users to have systemd "system user" like behaviour?

It's also not clear if there's any API apps can use to exempt themselves
from this, or any wrapper command to spawn processes that aren't clobbered.
With appropriate user privileges to permit it, at least.

I've asked for clarification on the bug, so I'd better don my fire-proof
suit.

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Re: [HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-07-10 Thread Julien Rouhaud 
On 10/07/2016 19:56, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Hackers,
> 
> This just came across my twitter feed:
> 
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-April/018373.html
> 
> tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory)
> when a user "fully" logs out.
> 

AFAIK it's only the case if the user is not a system user, and postgres
user should be (at least with community packages).

See https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2039

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Julien Rouhaud
http://dalibo.com - http://dalibo.org


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[HACKERS] PSA: Systemd will kill PostgreSQL

2016-07-10 Thread Joshua D. Drake 

Hackers,

This just came across my twitter feed:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-April/018373.html

tl;dr; Systemd 212 defaults to remove all IPC (including SYSV memory) 
when a user "fully" logs out.


JD


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