Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-08 Thread Amit Kapila
On Monday, August 05, 2013 10:12 PM Josh Berkus wrote: All, To limit the argument here, let's please not argue about things which people already agree on. So: We seem to have consensus around: A) the inadvisability of storing GUCs in a system catalog. B) the utility of a conf.d in

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-06 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: set it too large. Or if I set multiple settings together and you set one of them you'll undo my change and lose just part of my changes but not stop me from setting the others inconsistently. So we need to be able to change more than one setting in a single

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-06 Thread Boszormenyi Zoltan
2013-08-05 16:01 keltezéssel, Stephen Frost írta: * Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: I'm not even clear we do want this in /etc since none of our GUC options are repeatable things like Apache virtual servers. It actually

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-06 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 06:34:35PM +0200, Boszormenyi Zoltan wrote: 2013-08-05 16:01 keltezéssel, Stephen Frost írta: * Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: I'm not even clear we do want this in /etc since none of our GUC

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-06 Thread Boszormenyi Zoltan
2013-08-06 19:41 keltezéssel, Bruce Momjian írta: On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 06:34:35PM +0200, Boszormenyi Zoltan wrote: 2013-08-05 16:01 keltezéssel, Stephen Frost írta: * Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: I'm not even

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Amit Kapila
On Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:53 AM Tom Lane wrote: Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net writes: * Josh Berkus (j...@agliodbs.com) wrote: A much simpler solution to the issue Stephen proposes is to have a way to start up the server with all settings from ALTER SYSTEM SET disabled, just

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Tom Lane
Amit Kapila amit.kap...@huawei.com writes: On Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:53 AM Tom Lane wrote: Yeah, this approach is a nonstarter because there's no reason to assume that a postmaster started with default parameters will start successfully, or will be connectable-to if it does start.

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Amit Kapila
On Monday, August 05, 2013 11:57 AM Tom Lane wrote: Amit Kapila amit.kap...@huawei.com writes: On Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:53 AM Tom Lane wrote: Yeah, this approach is a nonstarter because there's no reason to assume that a postmaster started with default parameters will start

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Tom Lane
Amit Kapila amit.kap...@huawei.com writes: On Monday, August 05, 2013 11:57 AM Tom Lane wrote: My point here is just that we should keep the parameter values in plain text files, Here by text files, do you mean to say you are expecting file-per-guc-setting? No, I don't think this argument

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Greg Stark
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: I'm not even clear we do want this in /etc since none of our GUC options are repeatable things like Apache virtual servers. It actually makes *more* sense for pg_hba than it does for gucs. I think we can assume that in the

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Stephen Frost
* Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: Amit Kapila amit.kap...@huawei.com writes: On Monday, August 05, 2013 11:57 AM Tom Lane wrote: My point here is just that we should keep the parameter values in plain text files, Here by text files, do you mean to say you are expecting

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Stephen Frost
* Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: I'm not even clear we do want this in /etc since none of our GUC options are repeatable things like Apache virtual servers. It actually makes *more* sense for pg_hba than it does for

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 03:40:22PM +0100, Greg Stark wrote: Why isn't it enough to just dump out all variables with a source of alter system to a text file? You can either have a single global lock around that operation or write it to a new file and move it into place. -- greg On 1 Aug

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Josh Berkus
All, To limit the argument here, let's please not argue about things which people already agree on. So: We seem to have consensus around: A) the inadvisability of storing GUCs in a system catalog. B) the utility of a conf.d in /etc/ which may have nothing to do with ALTER SYSTEM SET C) that

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-05 12:18:25 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 03:40:22PM +0100, Greg Stark wrote: Why isn't it enough to just dump out all variables with a source of alter system to a text file? You can either have a single global lock around that operation or write it to a new

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Tom Lane
Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com writes: On 2013-08-05 12:18:25 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: I am unclear why we don't need a lock around _each_ GUC, i.e. if two sessions try to modify the same GUC at the same time. And if we need a lock, seems we can have just one and write all the

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 12:53:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com writes: On 2013-08-05 12:18:25 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: I am unclear why we don't need a lock around _each_ GUC, i.e. if two sessions try to modify the same GUC at the same time. And if we

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-05 12:53:24 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com writes: On 2013-08-05 12:18:25 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: I am unclear why we don't need a lock around _each_ GUC, i.e. if two sessions try to modify the same GUC at the same time. And if we need a lock,

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Tom Lane
Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: So my larger question is why a single-guc-per-file avoids corruption while having all the gucs in a single file does not. If it's file-per-GUC, then when two sessions try to write different GUCs, there is no conflict. When they try to write the same GUC,

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 01:16:10PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: So my larger question is why a single-guc-per-file avoids corruption while having all the gucs in a single file does not. If it's file-per-GUC, then when two sessions try to write different

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-05 Thread Greg Stark
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: If it's file-per-GUC, then when two sessions try to write different GUCs, there is no conflict Well it's not that there's no conflict. It's just that we don't detect the conflict. If you raise shared_buffers and I calculate the

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-03 Thread Greg Smith
On 8/2/13 4:48 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: * Josh Berkus (j...@agliodbs.com) wrote: I really think this is the wrong approach. If we start removing unsafe parameters from ALTER SYSTEM SET, we basically hobble the feature to the point of uselessness. Out of the 15 or so parameters 80% of our

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Amit Kapila
On Friday, August 02, 2013 8:57 AM Stephen Frost wrote: * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: FWIW, I think you've just put the final nail in the coffin of this patch by raising the barriers unreasonably high. For my 2c, I don't think it's an unreasonable idea to actually

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Cédric Villemain
Le vendredi 2 août 2013 09:23:17, Amit Kapila a écrit : On Friday, August 02, 2013 8:57 AM Stephen Frost wrote: * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: FWIW, I think you've just put the final nail in the coffin of this patch by raising the barriers unreasonably high. For my

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Amit Kapila
On Thursday, August 01, 2013 8:37 PM Andres Freund wrote: Hi, On 2013-08-01 15:40:22 +0100, Greg Stark wrote: Why isn't it enough to just dump out all variables with a source of alter system to a text file? You can either have a single global lock around that operation or write it to a

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Amit Kapila
On Friday, August 02, 2013 4:17 PM Cédric Villemain wrote: Le vendredi 2 août 2013 09:23:17, Amit Kapila a écrit : On Friday, August 02, 2013 8:57 AM Stephen Frost wrote: * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: FWIW, I think you've just put the final nail in the coffin of this

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Amit Kapila (amit.kap...@huawei.com) wrote: Below are some points in my mind due to which I have supported/implemented one-file-all-setting approach: a. I had heard quite a few times that Postgres has lot of files (each relation has separate file) as compare to Oracle. Users feel that

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Amit Kapila (amit.kap...@huawei.com) wrote: Yes, this can be viable option to ignore variable values that don't allow server to start, also I agree with you that this can be a separate patch. I disagree that this can be a separate patch. Adding an option to not allow certain GUCs from

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Amit Kapila
On Friday, August 02, 2013 5:19 PM Stephen Frost wrote: * Amit Kapila (amit.kap...@huawei.com) wrote: Below are some points in my mind due to which I have supported/implemented one-file-all-setting approach: a. I had heard quite a few times that Postgres has lot of files (each relation

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Amit Kapila (amit.kap...@huawei.com) wrote: This is an internal-to-PG data file and we should really implement it in whichever way makes the most sense for us. My general feeling is that one file is simpler and sufficient for the postgresql.conf-like parameters, Sure, I also feel

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Tom Lane
Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net writes: Perhaps having the file be a heap file instead of anything a sysadmin can be asked to go hack would also make it more clear that this is an internal PG file which is to be managed only through PG and stop all this arguing about how oh, they can just fix

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-02 08:41:09 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: Perhaps having the file be a heap file instead of anything a sysadmin can be asked to go hack would also make it more clear that this is an internal PG file which is to be managed only through PG and stop all this arguing about how oh, they

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Greg Stark
Writing out each guc in a separate file is a singularly bad idea. It's going out of our way to confuse users about what's going on and how they're expected to interact with the settings files and it actively makes it harder or nearly impossible to protect against simple failures. 1) The whole

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Greg Smith
On 8/1/13 10:47 AM, David Johnston wrote: Minor request: could someone enlighten me as to why making the directory location a compile-time option is undesirable. The ongoing argument here is whether to allow moving the directory at all, or to make it fixed to $PGDATA the way recovery.conf is.

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: What if you set a combination of parameters that prevents Postgres from starting? This was what I was trying to get at up-thread. Things that prevent PG from being able to start (or, really, which cause PG to be started in a completely different mode, ala

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
Greg, * Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: Writing out each guc in a separate file is a singularly bad idea. It's going out of our way to confuse users about what's going on and how they're expected to interact with the settings files and it actively makes it harder or nearly impossible to

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Stephen Frost escribió: * Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: What if you set a combination of parameters that prevents Postgres from starting? This was what I was trying to get at up-thread. Things that prevent PG from being able to start (or, really, which cause PG to be started in a

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Josh Berkus
On 08/02/2013 07:54 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: Curiously, I've not heard any argument about what parameters are safe and what aren't, though I was asked which ones I thought were safe and which weren't. Perhaps looking at the specific options that would likely cause PG to not start would be

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Josh Berkus (j...@agliodbs.com) wrote: On 08/02/2013 07:54 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: Curiously, I've not heard any argument about what parameters are safe and what aren't, though I was asked which ones I thought were safe and which weren't. Perhaps looking at the specific options that

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Tom Lane
Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net writes: * Josh Berkus (j...@agliodbs.com) wrote: A much simpler solution to the issue Stephen proposes is to have a way to start up the server with all settings from ALTER SYSTEM SET disabled, just like some software allows you to start it up in safe mode.

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-02 Thread Stephen Frost
* Josh Berkus (j...@agliodbs.com) wrote: I really think this is the wrong approach. If we start removing unsafe parameters from ALTER SYSTEM SET, we basically hobble the feature to the point of uselessness. Out of the 15 or so parameters 80% of our users touch, half of them are on your

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: Greg Smith's argument was about recovery.conf which is a file that users are expected to edit. A file which user's are not expected to edit and is maintained by the software is no more a configuration file than pg_auth or pg_database which are actually being

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Greg Stark
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr wrote: we should review the implementation choice of the ALTER SYSTEM SET facility, and vote for having one-file-per-GUC. Zombie crazy design idea arise! I think people are going to laugh at us if an open source database

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: I think people are going to laugh at us if an open source database software can't manage a simple flat file database of settings, especially one that is purely write-only and can be a simple dump of settings that are set by alter system. So you say it's easier

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 15:55:25 +0200, Dimitri Fontaine wrote: Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: I think people are going to laugh at us if an open source database software can't manage a simple flat file database of settings, especially one that is purely write-only and can be a simple dump of

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Greg Stark
We don't need per guc locking. This is the whole objection Tom had about this patch being more complex than it has to be. -- greg On 1 Aug 2013 14:55, Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr wrote: Greg Stark st...@mit.edu writes: I think people are going to laugh at us if an open source

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 15:17:04 +0100, Greg Stark wrote: We don't need per guc locking. This is the whole objection Tom had about this patch being more complex than it has to be. IIRC he objected to using locking *at all* because a simple one-file-per-setting approach should be used. Greetings, Andres

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Greg Stark
Why isn't it enough to just dump out all variables with a source of alter system to a text file? You can either have a single global lock around that operation or write it to a new file and move it into place. -- greg On 1 Aug 2013 15:19, Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: On

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread David Johnston
Minor request: could someone enlighten me as to why making the directory location a compile-time option is undesirable. Packagers then can setup whatever structure they desire when they compile their distributions. In which case the discussion becomes what is a reasonable default and that can be

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
Hi, On 2013-08-01 15:40:22 +0100, Greg Stark wrote: Why isn't it enough to just dump out all variables with a source of alter system to a text file? You can either have a single global lock around that operation or write it to a new file and move it into place. It saves you from several

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Josh Berkus
On 08/01/2013 07:47 AM, David Johnston wrote: Minor request: could someone enlighten me as to why making the directory location a compile-time option is undesirable. Packagers then can setup whatever structure they desire when they compile their distributions. In which case the discussion

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: While I find some value in the one-setting-per-file approach, there's also some major issues with it. And we already argued this out months ago, and ended up with the current single-file approach. Let's not rehash the past infinitely, please? We rehash

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Josh Berkus
Dimitri, We rehash because the situation did change *a lot*. We just decided that the ALTER SYSTEM SET setup will live in PGDATA and will not have to be edited by DBA nor sysadmin nor tools ever. We will have a separate facility (conf.d) for that. As a result, I don't think there's any

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 10:16:59 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: Dimitri, We rehash because the situation did change *a lot*. We just decided that the ALTER SYSTEM SET setup will live in PGDATA and will not have to be edited by DBA nor sysadmin nor tools ever. We will have a separate facility (conf.d)

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: Let's please NOT call it conf.d if it's living in PGDATA and is not meant to be edited by hand. conf.d is for a directory of config files created by users and external utilities, living in CONFIGDIR. +1 Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Josh Berkus
On 08/01/2013 10:24 AM, Andres Freund wrote: Let's please NOT call it conf.d if it's living in PGDATA and is not meant to be edited by hand. conf.d is for a directory of config files created by users and external utilities, living in CONFIGDIR. How nice that that's not what's being

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com schrieb: On 08/01/2013 10:24 AM, Andres Freund wrote: Let's please NOT call it conf.d if it's living in PGDATA and is not meant to be edited by hand. conf.d is for a directory of config files created by users and external utilities, living in CONFIGDIR. How

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* Alvaro Herrera (alvhe...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: Andres Freund wrote: Postgresql.auto.conf.d is what I'd propose, but the decision about that seems to be one of the smaller problems around this feature... That naming seems to make it sensible to extend other files (hba, ident)

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 14:37:45 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Alvaro Herrera (alvhe...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: Andres Freund wrote: Postgresql.auto.conf.d is what I'd propose, but the decision about that seems to be one of the smaller problems around this feature... That naming seems to make

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: People know what to expect from .d directories, that's why I suggested it, don't feel really strongly about it. I dislike naming the subdirectories pgconf/... et al though, we should reference the original files name, instead of introducing new

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 20:33:49 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: People know what to expect from .d directories, that's why I suggested it, don't feel really strongly about it. I dislike naming the subdirectories pgconf/... et al though, we should reference

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: I personally consider readers of this list persons... And even people not interested in internals will have to look in there if they set something stupid before. Like setting max_connections higher than the currently configured kernel's max

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
On 2013-08-01 20:45:38 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: I personally consider readers of this list persons... And even people not interested in internals will have to look in there if they set something stupid before. Like setting max_connections

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: I agree that we need to do reasonable checks, like running GUC validators, but we simply can't control the overall system state. And it's not like this are errors that you couldn't get before. And we should (that's something to improve on) report

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread David Johnston
Andres Freund-3 wrote Even trying to do this completely will guarantee that this patch will never, ever, suceed. There simply is no way to reliably detect problems that have complex interactions with the rest of the system. We can improve the detection rate of problems after some real world

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* David Johnston (pol...@yahoo.com) wrote: How about some form of persistence mechanism so that, before making these kinds of changes, the admin can save the current configuration. Then, in a worse case-scenario, they could run something like pg_ctl --restore-persisted-configuration ... to

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Andres Freund
Hi, FWIW, I think you've just put the final nail in the coffin of this patch by raising the barriers unreasonably high. * Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: I agree that we need to do reasonable checks, like running GUC validators, but we simply can't control the overall system

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Stephen Frost
* Andres Freund (and...@2ndquadrant.com) wrote: FWIW, I think you've just put the final nail in the coffin of this patch by raising the barriers unreasonably high. For my 2c, I don't think it's an unreasonable idea to actually *consider* what options are available through this mechanism rather

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Peter Geoghegan
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: The point above is that we will always need some amount of external config file and, as such, we should probably consider which items should really only be set in the *config* files and which can be set in either place.

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-08-01 Thread Alvaro Herrera
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Stephen Frost sfr...@snowman.net wrote: The point above is that we will always need some amount of external config file and, as such, we should probably consider which items should really only be set in the *config* files and which can be set in either

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-07-30 Thread Greg Stark
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: one for ALTER SYSTEM (living in PGDATA), then the idea of going back to one setting per file is perhaps not bad. Well more to the point, if we conf.d for sysadmins to drop in extra snippets in a different place

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-07-30 Thread Greg Stark
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: On 07/30/2013 10:28 AM, Greg Stark wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Alvaro Herrera Well more to the point, if we conf.d for sysadmins to drop in extra snippets in a different place then we could drop conf.d in PGDATA

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-07-30 Thread Josh Berkus
On 07/30/2013 11:12 AM, Greg Stark wrote: But if we're going to insist that conf.d be in PGDATA then I'm saying we don't need a second conf.d just to contain that one file. And if we let distributions and sysadmins drop files in there then we'll be back to square 0 with wanting to separate

[HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-07-30 Thread Greg Stark
On Jul 30, 2013 7:32 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: I don't think you understood GSmith's argument. For Debian/Ubuntu sysadmins, configuration files live in /etc/, *period*. Even ones which were automatically generated. The packagers and scripters of that OS have taken a

Re: [HACKERS] Re: ALTER SYSTEM SET command to change postgresql.conf parameters (RE: Proposal for Allow postgresql.conf values to be changed via SQL [review])

2013-07-30 Thread Stephen Frost
* Greg Stark (st...@mit.edu) wrote: I used to be a Debian package maintainer. I packaged kerberos and afs and a number of smaller packages. I know why Debian separates config files. Ditto (though I suppose I'm still technically active). If a file is automatically maintained then it's internal