Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Dave Page
Tom Lane wrote:
 I'm also not totally clear on whether we are happy with the Windows
 locale situation yet.  Comments from the Win32 contingent?

I'm happy that UTF-8 support is now working again, but not happy that
initdb and pg_control will report (for example) English_United
Kingdom.1252 despite my cluster being in UTF-8, not WIN1252. It seems
that's always been the case though, just that noone pointed it out before.

From chatting with Magnus, I believe he'd support losing the .1252 or
leaving it as is, where I'd rather rewrite it to .65001 (which he does
not support).

This is a cosmetic issue of course.

/D

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:59:07AM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
 Tom Lane wrote:
  I'm also not totally clear on whether we are happy with the Windows
  locale situation yet.  Comments from the Win32 contingent?
 
 I'm happy that UTF-8 support is now working again, but not happy that
 initdb and pg_control will report (for example) English_United
 Kingdom.1252 despite my cluster being in UTF-8, not WIN1252. It seems
 that's always been the case though, just that noone pointed it out before.

Bah, Dave beat me to it by a minute or two. But yes, that's the one thing
that I can see is still there. And yes, it's always been that way.


 From chatting with Magnus, I believe he'd support losing the .1252 or
 leaving it as is, where I'd rather rewrite it to .65001 (which he does
 not support).

I'm not against stripping the .1252 part, but I don't know what the clean
way to do that is, unless we want to drop it for all locales (which may or
may not be a good thing).

I specifically don't support rewriting it to .65001, becase that will
generate a locale name that's not valid. The same argument about clean way
applies here :-)

 This is a cosmetic issue of course.

Agreed.

//Magnus

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Oleg Bartunov

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Tom Lane wrote:


Marc G. Fournier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

On Sunday, October 21, 2007 22:38:04 -0400 Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

I've posted notes over the past few days about half a dozen relatively-
minor-but-none-the-less-initdb-forcing issues in tsearch.  We have to
either fix those or decide we're not going to fix them.  I'm a bit
annoyed that Oleg and Teodor haven't responded to any of those comments.



Remove the tsearch2 stuff if we can't even get feedback from the developers at
such a critical time?


I don't want to go that far.  But I will start making changes on my own
authority if I don't hear objections pretty soon ...



I and Teodor are really busy working on other project(s) and it's very 
difficult for us to switch our attention. Personally, I don't see any

principal quiestion where hackers community wouldn't think better than
we did and I rely on you, our colleagues.

The only concern is about changes of parser's token type, but I'm not 
ready to say more than just concern :)


ts_debug is a really debug function and could be changed. Btw, it 
doesn't supports thesaurus dictionaries, so it should be rewritten in C.


I have rather slow connection right now,  Teodor, probably, will
comment in more details.

Sorry, guys, for delay and thank you for understanding.




regards, tom lane

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Regards,
Oleg
_
Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Gregory Stark
Oleg Bartunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 ts_debug is a really debug function and could be changed. Btw, it doesn't
 supports thesaurus dictionaries, so it should be rewritten in C.

I would think things like ts_debug (and ts_stat?) which are handy support
modules but not fundamentally part of the tsearch api itself should just be
left outside of core in a contrib module so they can be fiddled with in
subsequent releases.

-- 
  Gregory Stark
  EnterpriseDB  http://www.enterprisedb.com

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Pavel Stehule
2007/10/22, Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Oleg Bartunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  ts_debug is a really debug function and could be changed. Btw, it doesn't
  supports thesaurus dictionaries, so it should be rewritten in C.

 I would think things like ts_debug (and ts_stat?) which are handy support
 modules but not fundamentally part of the tsearch api itself should just be
 left outside of core in a contrib module so they can be fiddled with in
 subsequent releases.


ts_debug is usefull for teting of some configuration like czech.
ts_stat is little bit experimental, but ts_debug is usefull and
necessary.

Pavel


 --
   Gregory Stark
   EnterpriseDB  http://www.enterprisedb.com

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Merlin Moncure
On 10/21/07, Josh Berkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Bruce Momjian wrote:
  We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
  beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
  in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
  freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.
 

 Unfortunately, I think that's because people haven't been testing.  At
 my keynote at the PostgreSQL Fall Conference yesterday, I asked the
 audience of 63 people how many had built 8.3 beta and tried to run
 something on it ... 3.  And these are our enthusiasts.

I've been beating on the database throughout the development cycle and
on the beta.  I haven't tested some particular features like the new
tsearch stuff but have done a lot of stress testing.  The stability of
the database has been really remarkable.

Since there is a catalog bump my suggestion would be to wrap beta2
asap...hopefully that will be the last one.  wrt moving to RC1 and
beyond, it's looking good to me...give me a heads up if you are
looking for testing in particular areas.

merlin

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Robert Treat
On Sunday 21 October 2007 22:38, Tom Lane wrote:
 Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Bruce Momjian wrote:
  Nothing motivates people to test more than moving toward RC1.  ;-)
 
  Getting Beta2 out is vital to actually getting people to test there are
  known issues and changes with Beta1 that have made it pretty much a
  useless Beta.

 Agreed --- at this point we know we've forced initdb, plus there are
 those known locale issues on Windows, so it's a bit hard to ask someone
 to install beta1 if they haven't already.  I think what we need to do
 next is get to closure on the open issues and get a beta2 out ASAP.
snip
 Can anyone think of any other issues that should be considered beta2
 stoppers?  (No, the contrib documentation isn't one...)


There was talk that the txid contrib module could be folded into core should 
we do an initdb post beta; has that idea been revisted now that we have?  

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 09:25:03AM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
 On Sunday 21 October 2007 22:38, Tom Lane wrote:
  Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Bruce Momjian wrote:
   Nothing motivates people to test more than moving toward RC1.  ;-)
  
   Getting Beta2 out is vital to actually getting people to test there are
   known issues and changes with Beta1 that have made it pretty much a
   useless Beta.
 
  Agreed --- at this point we know we've forced initdb, plus there are
  those known locale issues on Windows, so it's a bit hard to ask someone
  to install beta1 if they haven't already.  I think what we need to do
  next is get to closure on the open issues and get a beta2 out ASAP.
 snip
  Can anyone think of any other issues that should be considered beta2
  stoppers?  (No, the contrib documentation isn't one...)
 
 
 There was talk that the txid contrib module could be folded into core should 
 we do an initdb post beta; has that idea been revisted now that we have?  

Yes. It has been folded in.
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-committers/2007-10/msg00246.php


//Magnus

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Tom Lane
Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:59:07AM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
 From chatting with Magnus, I believe he'd support losing the .1252 or
 leaving it as is, where I'd rather rewrite it to .65001 (which he does
 not support).

 I'm not against stripping the .1252 part, but I don't know what the clean
 way to do that is, unless we want to drop it for all locales (which may or
 may not be a good thing).

Why not if selected encoding is UTF8, drop any .nnn part?
(Inside #ifdef WIN32 of course.)

regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Le lundi 22 octobre 2007, Robert Treat a écrit :
 There was talk that the txid contrib module could be folded into core
 should we do an initdb post beta; has that idea been revisted now that we
 have?

It very well seem to have been integrated into core: 
http://repo.or.cz/w/PostgreSQL.git?a=commit;h=5d54ea7722406d55078b735fa420d474bee8cafb

Regards,
-- 
dim


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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Dave Page
Tom Lane wrote:
 Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:59:07AM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
 From chatting with Magnus, I believe he'd support losing the .1252 or
 leaving it as is, where I'd rather rewrite it to .65001 (which he does
 not support).
 
 I'm not against stripping the .1252 part, but I don't know what the clean
 way to do that is, unless we want to drop it for all locales (which may or
 may not be a good thing).
 
 Why not if selected encoding is UTF8, drop any .nnn part?
 (Inside #ifdef WIN32 of course.)

Consistency? It is better than the current situation though I agree.

Regards, Dave

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 03:18:38PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
 Tom Lane wrote:
  Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:59:07AM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
  From chatting with Magnus, I believe he'd support losing the .1252 or
  leaving it as is, where I'd rather rewrite it to .65001 (which he does
  not support).
  
  I'm not against stripping the .1252 part, but I don't know what the clean
  way to do that is, unless we want to drop it for all locales (which may or
  may not be a good thing).
  
  Why not if selected encoding is UTF8, drop any .nnn part?
  (Inside #ifdef WIN32 of course.)
 
 Consistency? It is better than the current situation though I agree.

As I chatted with Dave about - wnat encoding? We pull that value cluster
wide, but the encoding is per-database. You could have one UTF8 and one
WIN1252 database...

//Magnus

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Tom Lane
Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 As I chatted with Dave about - wnat encoding? We pull that value cluster
 wide, but the encoding is per-database. You could have one UTF8 and one
 WIN1252 database...

Will chklocale.c actually allow that?  Should it?  We've spent a lot of
time zeroed in on initdb's behavior, but the other piece of the puzzle
is which DB encodings should CREATE DATABASE allow afterwards.  It
sounds to me that Windows may be more flexible than the standard Unix
locale support on this point, but I'm not sure how much more flexible.

There's also the question of how we make sure that strings returned
by the OS (eg strerror) are in the DB's encoding.  I think that the
Unix side is not fully up to speed on that either --- we don't try
to prevent you from setting, eg, LC_MESSAGES = foo.utf8 when LC_CTYPE
and the DB encoding are iso88591.  I've thought about trying to enforce
that the encoding-suffix-if-any is the same as LC_CTYPE's for all the LC_
values, but I'm not sure whether that approach is sane for Windows.

regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:55:14AM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
 Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  As I chatted with Dave about - wnat encoding? We pull that value cluster
  wide, but the encoding is per-database. You could have one UTF8 and one
  WIN1252 database...
 
 Will chklocale.c actually allow that?  Should it?  We've spent a lot of
 time zeroed in on initdb's behavior, but the other piece of the puzzle
 is which DB encodings should CREATE DATABASE allow afterwards.  It
 sounds to me that Windows may be more flexible than the standard Unix
 locale support on this point, but I'm not sure how much more flexible.

Yes, if I pick the proper locale, it does work. 

FOr example, I can properly initdb in UTF8 and then create a WIN1252
database.


 There's also the question of how we make sure that strings returned
 by the OS (eg strerror) are in the DB's encoding.  I think that the
 Unix side is not fully up to speed on that either --- we don't try
 to prevent you from setting, eg, LC_MESSAGES = foo.utf8 when LC_CTYPE
 and the DB encoding are iso88591.  I've thought about trying to enforce
 that the encoding-suffix-if-any is the same as LC_CTYPE's for all the LC_
 values, but I'm not sure whether that approach is sane for Windows.

That's a potential problem - I assume you'll have the same problem as on 
Unix if you say your db is in UTF8 buy your messages are in LATIN1.

//Magnus

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-22 Thread Joshua D. Drake
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:07:06 +0100
Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Oleg Bartunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  ts_debug is a really debug function and could be changed. Btw, it
  doesn't supports thesaurus dictionaries, so it should be rewritten
  in C.
 
 I would think things like ts_debug (and ts_stat?) which are handy
 support modules but not fundamentally part of the tsearch api itself
 should just be left outside of core in a contrib module so they can
 be fiddled with in subsequent releases.

I would prefer not to do that. It is quite obnoxious to have to go
somewhere else to get support functions.

Joshua D. Drake
 


-- 

  === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564   24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997  http://www.commandprompt.com/
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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Josh Berkus

Bruce Momjian wrote:

We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.



Unfortunately, I think that's because people haven't been testing.  At 
my keynote at the PostgreSQL Fall Conference yesterday, I asked the 
audience of 63 people how many had built 8.3 beta and tried to run 
something on it ... 3.  And these are our enthusiasts.


For me, I ran into a CC compile issues on Solaris (diagnosing now) and 
haven't got much further on testing it there, although Jignesh is 
already into performance testing.  Worked fine for demo purposes on 
OSX.4, though, and I was able to import some old databases (Staffos, 
TPCE) without unexpected issues.


Of course I would like to do a short beta, but I think we need to harass 
people to test more.


--Josh

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Bruce Momjian
Josh Berkus wrote:
 Bruce Momjian wrote:
  We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
  beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
  in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
  freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.
  
 
 Unfortunately, I think that's because people haven't been testing.  At 
 my keynote at the PostgreSQL Fall Conference yesterday, I asked the 
 audience of 63 people how many had built 8.3 beta and tried to run 
 something on it ... 3.  And these are our enthusiasts.
 
 For me, I ran into a CC compile issues on Solaris (diagnosing now) and 
 haven't got much further on testing it there, although Jignesh is 
 already into performance testing.  Worked fine for demo purposes on 
 OSX.4, though, and I was able to import some old databases (Staffos, 
 TPCE) without unexpected issues.
 
 Of course I would like to do a short beta, but I think we need to harass 
 people to test more.

Nothing motivates people to test more than moving toward RC1.  ;-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Joshua D. Drake

Bruce Momjian wrote:

Josh Berkus wrote:

Bruce Momjian wrote:

We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.

Unfortunately, I think that's because people haven't been testing.  At 
my keynote at the PostgreSQL Fall Conference yesterday, I asked the 
audience of 63 people how many had built 8.3 beta and tried to run 
something on it ... 3.  And these are our enthusiasts.


For me, I ran into a CC compile issues on Solaris (diagnosing now) and 
haven't got much further on testing it there, although Jignesh is 
already into performance testing.  Worked fine for demo purposes on 
OSX.4, though, and I was able to import some old databases (Staffos, 
TPCE) without unexpected issues.


Of course I would like to do a short beta, but I think we need to harass 
people to test more.


Nothing motivates people to test more than moving toward RC1.  ;-)



Getting Beta2 out is vital to actually getting people to test there are 
known issues and changes with Beta1 that have made it pretty much a 
useless Beta.


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Tom Lane
Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Bruce Momjian wrote:
 Nothing motivates people to test more than moving toward RC1.  ;-)

 Getting Beta2 out is vital to actually getting people to test there are 
 known issues and changes with Beta1 that have made it pretty much a 
 useless Beta.

Agreed --- at this point we know we've forced initdb, plus there are
those known locale issues on Windows, so it's a bit hard to ask someone
to install beta1 if they haven't already.  I think what we need to do
next is get to closure on the open issues and get a beta2 out ASAP.

I've posted notes over the past few days about half a dozen relatively-
minor-but-none-the-less-initdb-forcing issues in tsearch.  We have to
either fix those or decide we're not going to fix them.  I'm a bit
annoyed that Oleg and Teodor haven't responded to any of those comments.

I'm also not totally clear on whether we are happy with the Windows
locale situation yet.  Comments from the Win32 contingent?

Can anyone think of any other issues that should be considered beta2
stoppers?  (No, the contrib documentation isn't one...)

regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Marc G. Fournier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



- --On Sunday, October 21, 2007 22:38:04 -0400 Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I've posted notes over the past few days about half a dozen relatively-
 minor-but-none-the-less-initdb-forcing issues in tsearch.  We have to
 either fix those or decide we're not going to fix them.  I'm a bit
 annoyed that Oleg and Teodor haven't responded to any of those comments.

Remove the tsearch2 stuff if we can't even get feedback from the developers at 
such a critical time?

- 
Marc G. Fournier   Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED]  MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo . yscrappy   Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD)

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Tom Lane
Marc G. Fournier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Sunday, October 21, 2007 22:38:04 -0400 Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 I've posted notes over the past few days about half a dozen relatively-
 minor-but-none-the-less-initdb-forcing issues in tsearch.  We have to
 either fix those or decide we're not going to fix them.  I'm a bit
 annoyed that Oleg and Teodor haven't responded to any of those comments.

 Remove the tsearch2 stuff if we can't even get feedback from the developers 
 at 
 such a critical time?

I don't want to go that far.  But I will start making changes on my own
authority if I don't hear objections pretty soon ...

regards, tom lane

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-21 Thread Pavel Stehule

 - --On Sunday, October 21, 2007 22:38:04 -0400 Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  I've posted notes over the past few days about half a dozen relatively-
  minor-but-none-the-less-initdb-forcing issues in tsearch.  We have to
  either fix those or decide we're not going to fix them.  I'm a bit
  annoyed that Oleg and Teodor haven't responded to any of those comments.

 Remove the tsearch2 stuff if we can't even get feedback from the developers at
 such a critical time?


It's little bit hard. TSearch2 was strongly refactorised by Tom, and
current Tom's questions are practical, but not fundamental.

Pavel

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[HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-20 Thread Bruce Momjian
We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-20 Thread Albert Cervera i Areny
A Diumenge 21 Octubre 2007, Bruce Momjian va escriure:
 We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
 beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
 in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
 freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.

I want to send a patch for the contrib modules by late sunday (europe here ;). 
I'm doing some cleanup and organizing it a bit better and I think somebody 
expected these docs to be in the second beta...

-- 
Albert Cervera i Areny
http://www.NaN-tic.com

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Re: [HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2007-10-20 Thread Tom Lane
Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 We have had very few beta1 issues.  I am thinking we should release
 beta2 next week and perhaps accelerate beta and consider a final release
 in November rather than December.  Because of the length of our feature
 freeze it is possible we are not going to have as many beta bugs.

We need to deal with the open questions about tsearch API before beta2.
Since we've already forced initdb for beta2, there's no cost to
additional system-catalog changes now, but that window will clang shut
again when beta2 goes out.

I'm disappointed that Oleg and Teodor haven't commented on those issues
yet ...

regards, tom lane

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[HACKERS] Ready for beta2?

2006-10-02 Thread Bruce Momjian
Are we ready to think about a beta2?  Seems beta1 was quiet.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  EnterpriseDBhttp://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
   choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
   match