Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

Hello Alvaro,

On 16.09.2011 15:08, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this
idea.  How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to
me.  Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it?

(I, for one, had no idea you were in the SQL committee.)


It will be personally me - who gets the penalty when something get 
outside the group who is supporting me.


Members should be people that I can trust.

Besides core team I trust all who core team trust.

And of course there are ppl outside core team who I am trusting.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Alvaro Herrera

Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011:
 
 On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
+1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do
such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed
lists for appropriate purposes.
   
   Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The
   blocking issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where
   to put it (I'm looking at you, pgfoundry).
  
  I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org.
 
 One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager.  Also, at
 least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to
 manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list.

The document manager might be useful, true.  I cannot speak about past
administrators of the Majordomo installation that serves the
@postgresql.org lists, though.  For all intents and purposes, it seems
I'm in charge of it now.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-21 Thread Dave Page
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Alvaro Herrera
alvhe...@commandprompt.com wrote:

 Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mié sep 21 00:27:53 -0300 2011:

 On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
+1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do
such a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed
lists for appropriate purposes.
  
   Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The
   blocking issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where
   to put it (I'm looking at you, pgfoundry).
 
  I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org.

 One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager.  Also, at
 least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to
 manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list.

 The document manager might be useful, true.  I cannot speak about past
 administrators of the Majordomo installation that serves the
 @postgresql.org lists, though.  For all intents and purposes, it seems
 I'm in charge of it now.

Only seems? :-)



-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
 Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes:
  On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
  That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
  Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
  be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
  outside the project is of no use at all. 
 
  Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?
 
 +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
 a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
 appropriate purposes.

Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The blocking
issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm
looking at you, pgfoundry).

 I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements
 for joining?

As as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is known in the community and has
a plausible interest can join.  The requirement is that we share this
material with colleagues for consultation, as opposed to posting it on
the public internet.



-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Alvaro Herrera

Excerpts from Peter Eisentraut's message of mar sep 20 10:51:51 -0300 2011:
 On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
  Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes:
   On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
   That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
   Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
   be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
   outside the project is of no use at all. 
  
   Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?
  
  +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
  a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
  appropriate purposes.
 
 Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The blocking
 issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm
 looking at you, pgfoundry).

I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread David Fetter
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 04:51:51PM +0300, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
 On sön, 2011-09-18 at 12:43 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
  Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes:
   On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
   That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
   Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
   be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
   outside the project is of no use at all. 
  
   Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?
  
  +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
  a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
  appropriate purposes.
 
 Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The blocking
 issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it (I'm
 looking at you, pgfoundry).
 
  I guess the real question is, exactly what will be the requirements
  for joining?
 
 As as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is known in the community and has
 a plausible interest can join.  The requirement is that we share this
 material with colleagues for consultation, as opposed to posting it on
 the public internet.

I'd like to be on this list, and believe I qualify.

Cheers,
David.
-- 
David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter  XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com
iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-20 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On tis, 2011-09-20 at 11:12 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
   +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do
 such
   a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
   appropriate purposes.
  
  Well, that much we've already decided a few years ago.  The blocking
  issues are: (1) do we have enough interest, and (2) where to put it
 (I'm
  looking at you, pgfoundry).
 
 I don't see why we wouldn't put it in @postgresql.org.

One nice thing about pgfoundry would be the document manager.  Also, at
least at some point in the past, a pgfoundry project was easier to
manage than getting anything done about a @postgresql.org mailing list.


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Josh Berkus

 +1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
 a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
 appropriate purposes.  I guess the real question is, exactly what will
 be the requirements for joining?

Well, one requirement would be agreeing not to share anything discussed
in public without a vote of the entire group.  Annoying, but that's how
confidential drafts go.

FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of
everything which is wrong with the ISO.

Also, Suzanne indicated that summaries of what features were being
discussed could be posted in public, even if details could not be.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
 FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of
 everything which is wrong with the ISO.

Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by
the big guys and their IP claims.

Joe

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

On 19.09.2011 15:50, Josh Berkus wrote:

+1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
appropriate purposes.  I guess the real question is, exactly what will
be the requirements for joining?

Well, one requirement would be agreeing not to share anything discussed
in public without a vote of the entire group.  Annoying, but that's how
confidential drafts go.


Exactly.

Honestly, I don't expect that it will get a big group.
It is very dry stuff.


FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic of
everything which is wrong with the ISO.


+1 - But all suggestions to change it got rejected.

Also, Suzanne indicated that summaries of what features were being
discussed could be posted in public, even if details could not be.



I looked into it - I fear it will get too gibberish.

You sometimes just need the details.

Also - just forwarding it - is much easier and less time intensive for me.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread David Fetter
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote:
 On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
  FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic
  of everything which is wrong with the ISO.
 
 Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled
 by the big guys and their IP claims.

That's probably not a bad idea.  The down side is that it'll be the work
of decades, not years, to get this thing going.

Cheers,
David.
-- 
David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter  XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com
iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Andrew Dunstan



On 09/19/2011 12:20 PM, David Fetter wrote:

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote:

On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:

FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic
of everything which is wrong with the ISO.

Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled
by the big guys and their IP claims.

That's probably not a bad idea.  The down side is that it'll be the work
of decades, not years, to get this thing going.




Frankly, whether or not it might be desirable, it strikes me as probably 
simply tilting at windmills.


cheers

andrew

--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Christopher Browne
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote:
 On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
  FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic
  of everything which is wrong with the ISO.

 Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled
 by the big guys and their IP claims.

 That's probably not a bad idea.  The down side is that it'll be the work
 of decades, not years, to get this thing going.

Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction
from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we
don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to
construct.

The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would
be to participate in UnQL
http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home.  That's early enough in
its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the
popularity of NoSQL, being at the ground breaking of a common query
language to access that would likely be useful to us.

If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best
involve embracing truly relational, stepping back to PostQUEL, and
promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction.

As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to take
over SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea.
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, How would the Lone Ranger handle this?

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
On 09/19/2011 12:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote:
 Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction
 from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we
 don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to
 construct.
 
 The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would
 be to participate in UnQL
 http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home.  That's early enough in
 its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the
 popularity of NoSQL, being at the ground breaking of a common query
 language to access that would likely be useful to us.
 
 If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best
 involve embracing truly relational, stepping back to PostQUEL, and
 promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction.

If I were looking for something truly relational I wouldn't go towards
JSON or NoSQL, I'd go with something like Dee
(http://www.quicksort.co.uk/ ) which IIRC were interested in building a
PostgreSQL inteface.

 As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to take
 over SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea.

My intention was not to take over anything.  I only think it may be
useful to discuss SQL features, informally or otherwise, with other open
source competitors such as SQLite, MySQL (brethren), Firebird, etc.,
and Josh, having been close to the MySQL camp (even physically, from
what I recall :-) is possibly well suited to start that discussion.

Joe

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Christopher Browne cbbro...@gmail.com writes:
 The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would
 be to participate in UnQL
 http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home.  That's early enough in
 its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the
 popularity of NoSQL, being at the ground breaking of a common query
 language to access that would likely be useful to us.

Quite franckly, the thing that SQL was meant to provide is the ability
for non programmers to grok and use the language by themselves.  I'm yet
to see that happen anywhere, all I see is developers and DBA that learn
yet another programming language, which has a lot of strengths and its
share of weaknesses too.

My feeling here is that if we want to offer something else than our
current SQL syntax support to the NoSQL people, we should expose the
PostgreSQL system as a programming facility.  Build a kind of a more
classic programming language that would use our engine inside, etc.

Here's and example of such a system, with some lisp and prolog
interfaces on top of transactional data access semantics.

  http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#dbase

IOW, I don't believe in another SQL standard, we're good enough at
pushing the current one (wCTE being the last incantation of that, but
all the custom types and extensibility are there too, building a kind of
a generic or polymorphic type system, with custom operator support,
etc).

Regards,
-- 
Dimitri Fontaine
http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Greg Smith

On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote:

Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by
the big guys and their IP claims.
   


Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other 
vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has 
vs. the big guys.  There needs to be a pretty serious problem with 
your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards 
move.  And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork.  Last 
thing you want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort 
of big company work.


--
Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support  www.2ndQuadrant.us


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Pavel Stehule
2011/9/19 Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com:
 On 09/19/2011 10:58 AM, Joe Abbate wrote:

 Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled by
 the big guys and their IP claims.


 Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other
 vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has vs.
 the big guys.  There needs to be a pretty serious problem with your
 process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards move.
  And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork.  Last thing you
 want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort of big company
 work.

+1 :)

Pavel


 --
 Greg Smith   2ndQuadrant US    g...@2ndquadrant.com   Baltimore, MD
 PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support  www.2ndQuadrant.us


 --
 Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
 To make changes to your subscription:
 http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Joe Abbate
Hi Greg,

On 09/19/2011 04:44 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
 Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other
 vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has
 vs. the big guys.  There needs to be a pretty serious problem with
 your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards
 move.  And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork.  Last
 thing you want to be competing with a big company on is doing that sort
 of big company work.

You have a point there.  However, open source standardization doesn't
have to be patterned after closed source efforts.  OTOH it's hard to
predict what form it should take.  Perhaps it's simply a matter of
cross-pollination, i.e., the kind of interaction with MySQL groups that
occurred over the last year (I realize it wasn't just or even primarily
SQL-related).

Joe

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Josh Berkus
Folks,

Can we move the discussion about hypothetical new standards groups over
to -advocacy?  This is getting a bit off-topic for -hackers.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Clark C. Evans
On Monday, September 19, 2011 9:20 AM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org
wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58:49AM -0400, Joe Abbate wrote:
  On 09/19/2011 09:50 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
   FWIW, the fact that the drafts *are* confidential is symptomatic
   of everything which is wrong with the ISO.
  
  Maybe it's time for an open source SQL standard, one not controlled
  by the big guys and their IP claims.
 
 That's probably not a bad idea.  The down side is that it'll be the work
 of decades, not years, to get this thing going.

If anyone wants to start on something like this, I think it
could start as a rigorous review of PostgreSQL semantics.  

On Monday, September 19, 2011 4:44 PM, Greg Smith
g...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 Not spending as much time sitting in meetings and fighting with other 
 vendors is one of the competitive advantages PostgreSQL development has 
 vs. the big guys.  There needs to be a pretty serious problem with 
 your process before adding bureaucracy to it is anything but a backwards 
 move.  And standardization tends to attract lots of paperwork...

Perhaps focusing only on PostgreSQL semantics and edge cases is
also where the effort should stop.

I'm not offering to do this.  I think this work would only be really  
valuable if it significantly improved the already excellent 
documentation and regression tests -- ie, provides direct user value.

Best,

Clark

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-19 Thread Darren Duncan
FYI, one of the main goals of the Muldis D language is to be an open source SQL 
standard.  It is intended to satisfy both relational and NoSQL folks, and 
predates UnQL significantly.


Muldis D has always been published openly and is comprehensive enough to cover 
anything that SQL does, and anyone is welcome to improve it.


Moreover, this standard has built-in resilience against embrace, extend and 
extinguish by including explicit versioning with authorities (Perl 6 inspired 
that feature), so that if anyone forks the language, it is possible for the 
different versions to be easily distinguishable and non-conflicting, and in a 
more benign respect it is designed to be extensible so DBMSs can be free to 
evolve under it, adding unique features, while not causing compatibility 
conflicts with other DBMSs in the process.


Note that I have fallen behind in specifying a number of intended significant 
design improvements/simplifications to the spec proper, though much of this is 
hashed out in the laundry list TODO_DRAFT file in github.


-- Darren Duncan

Joe Abbate wrote:

On 09/19/2011 12:40 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM, David Fetter da...@fetter.org wrote:
Actually, I think it *is* a bad idea, as it would require construction
from whole cloth of kinds of mostly political infrastructure that we
don't have, as a community and aren't necessarily notably competent to
construct.

The nearest sort of thing that *could* conceivably be sensible would
be to participate in UnQL
http://www.unqlspec.org/display/UnQL/Home.  That's early enough in
its process that it's likely somewhat guidable, and, with the
popularity of NoSQL, being at the ground breaking of a common query
language to access that would likely be useful to us.

If we wanted to start a new standards process, I imagine it would best
involve embracing truly relational, stepping back to PostQUEL, and
promoting a standard based on something off more in that direction.


If I were looking for something truly relational I wouldn't go towards
JSON or NoSQL, I'd go with something like Dee
(http://www.quicksort.co.uk/ ) which IIRC were interested in building a
PostgreSQL inteface.


As much as that might sound like a terrible idea, trying to take
over SQL by forking it strikes me as a much *worse* idea.


My intention was not to take over anything.  I only think it may be
useful to discuss SQL features, informally or otherwise, with other open
source competitors such as SQLite, MySQL (brethren), Firebird, etc.,
and Josh, having been close to the MySQL camp (even physically, from
what I recall :-) is possibly well suited to start that discussion.

Joe




--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 07:38 -0500, Merlin Moncure wrote:
 So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
 up at the ISO meeting?  Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
 syntax drafted into the sql standard?

Don't expect to take a PostgreSQL-specific feature, say, CREATE RULE or
CREATE AGGREGATE, and make it into an ISO standard.  The big boys
still run the show, and it's unlikely that something gets accepted
without buy in from one of the major proprietary vendors.  Besides,
writing actual standards is difficult and time-consuming work.  But what
you can accomplish is to mold upcoming features so that they don't clash
with PostgreSQL, or better yet benefit PostgreSQL.  Also, you can mold
future PostgreSQL features in the converse way.



-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
 You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
 on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
 point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
 other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
 been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
 raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
 knowledge of others.

Let's not get into legalese.  I don't think Susanne's point was the she
was the sole and authoritative representative of the project.  An
alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only
participant in committee meetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on
her mind.



-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Dave Page
On Sunday, September 18, 2011, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote:
 On fre, 2011-09-16 at 08:59 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
 You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
 on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
 point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
 other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
 been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
 raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
 knowledge of others.

 Let's not get into legalese.  I don't think Susanne's point was the she
 was the sole and authoritative representative of the project.  An
 alternative way to phrase this might be that she has been the only
 participant in committee meetings that has had PostgreSQL's concerns on
 her mind.

That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should be
communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works outside the
project is of no use at all.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Kevin Grittner
Susanne Ebrecht  wrote:
 
 Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard
 committee.
 
I wasn't aware of that.  Thanks for taking the time to look out for
community interests.
 
 The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of
 drafts that needs decisions.
 
As others have stated, I think it would be appropriate to discuss the
issues under consideration on this list.  A non-public list could
make sense if it would allow you to share draft language in a way
which wouldn't be possible here; those who wish to support your
efforts in that regard could subscribe.
 
-Kevin

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
 That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
 Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
 be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
 outside the project is of no use at all. 

Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-18 Thread Tom Lane
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net writes:
 On sön, 2011-09-18 at 09:45 -0500, Dave Page wrote:
 That is much more reasonable, though unfortunately not what was said.
 Regardless, I stand by my main point that such a representative should
 be communicating with the project regularly. Having a rep who works
 outside the project is of no use at all. 

 Well, the point of this thread is, how can she communicate?

+1 for a closed mailing list.  It's a bit annoying to have to do such
a thing, but it's not like we haven't got other closed lists for
appropriate purposes.  I guess the real question is, exactly what will
be the requirements for joining?

regards, tom lane

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-17 Thread Josh Berkus

 And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
 I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports
before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-17 Thread Jaime Casanova
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:

  And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
  I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

 Actually, I would be very interested to see you post reports
 before/after each meeting either on -hackers or pgsql-sql.


Well Susanne said that the drafts are not public information so maybe
the things that *could* end up in a draft shouldn't be either, if so i
agree with the idea of creating a private list for that

--
Jaime Casanova         www.2ndQuadrant.com
Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Brendan Jurd
On 16 September 2011 16:24, Susanne Ebrecht susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't get
 published - on which
 I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?

 I don't fear to make decisions on my own - but speaking for the whole
 project without
 getting feedback - is a worse feeling.

 Usually, when I feel unsure how I should decide I just bother Peter - but I
 would prefer
 to have some more ppl in my background.

I for one would definitely be interested in reading such a list.

Cheers,
BJ

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Heikki Linnakangas

On 16.09.2011 09:24, Susanne Ebrecht wrote:

The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of
drafts that needs
decisions.

I am not allowed to share the drafts in public. Because the drafts are
confidential.


I think that's a big part of the problem. It's hard to get excited about 
something if you don't know what's happening.



But I am allowed to share the drafts with the group of ppl who are
supporting me.
Of course I am allowed to discuss the drafts with my folk before I will
give my votes and comments.


Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary 
of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's 
people in the community with interests in particular topics, they could 
contact you and get involved.



Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't
get published - on which
I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?


I could join such a mailing list if you create one, but it would 
probably be better if specific topics could be discussed on 
pgsql-hackers. Perhaps this is something you should bring up in the 
committee. I understand that the committee doesn't want to open its work 
to the whole world, but I also don't see why work-in-progress features 
couldn't be discussed in the public.


FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no idea 
what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's someone 
on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes something 
that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use for 
something else, I know you're going to speak up.


--
  Heikki Linnakangas
  EnterpriseDB   http://www.enterprisedb.com

--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:

 Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
employee of MySQL. We've had a number of discussions both online and
at one of the more recent developer meetings, and even approved
funding around having (if I remember correctly) Peter or Simon
represent us on the committee.

 Always, when I suggested to talk about my work in the SQL committee on
 community
 events, a committee rejected it. This just showed me that nobody really has
 interests
 in my work.

 I now learned that such a event committee not always is able to estimate
 interests correct.

An event committee is not approving talks because the work is
important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of
interest to the conference audience. In the case of PG Conference
Europe which I suspect you are alluding to there were a significant
number of talks submitted that would be of far more interest and
benefit to our primary audience of end users.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Merlin Moncure
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 The next ISO meeting will be soon - and of course there are lots of drafts
 that needs
 decisions.

So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
up at the ISO meeting?  Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
syntax drafted into the sql standard?

merlin

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

Dave,

On 16.09.2011 14:33, Dave Page wrote:

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com  wrote:

Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
employee of MySQL.


Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of 
Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did.



An event committee is not approving talks because the work is
important to the community - they are approving talks that will be of
interest to the conference audience.


You exactly hit the point here - where I had another opinion for what a 
community event also is.

But doesn't matter.

As I said - I just learned.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:

 Since 4 years I am PostgreSQL representative in SQL Standard committee.

 With respect, I believe you are on the committee as you were an
 employee of MySQL.

 Nope. As Sun employee - I always was responsible for taking care of
 Postgresql - taking care of MySQL others did.

My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
PostgreSQL.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Alvaro Herrera

Excerpts from Susanne Ebrecht's message of vie sep 16 03:24:58 -0300 2011:

 Isn't it possible to create a closed mailing list - a list that won't 
 get published - on which
 I can discuss SQL Standard stuff with the folk who wants to support me?

It's certainly possible to create a private mailing list to support this
idea.  How would the membership be approved, however, is not clear to
me.  Would we let only well-known names from other pgsql lists into it?

(I, for one, had no idea you were in the SQL committee.)

-- 
Álvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

Heikki,

On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote:


Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary 
of things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if 
there's people in the community with interests in particular topics, 
they could contact you and get involved.


Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers.

FWIW, I'm very glad you're on the committee! Even though I have no 
idea what's going on there, it gives me a warm feeling that there's 
someone on the committee who knows PostgreSQL. If someone proposes 
something that would hurt PostgreSQL, like syntax that we already use 
for something else, I know you're going to speak up.




Thanks for the bouquet. This comment let me feel better.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote:

My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
PostgreSQL.


Dave,

the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you.
Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent 
your country.

For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts.
If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company 
(don't know how BSI works internally).

Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise.

Of course Peter always was and still is in my background.

Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that 
problem.


Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 On 16.09.2011 14:47, Dave Page wrote:

 My point remains - Sun were never in a position to say who represents
 PostgreSQL.

 Dave,

 the procedure works different. The country representation ask for you.
 Because you represent your product on one side - but you also represent your
 country.
 For example ANSI offered Sun to send some experts.
 If BSI wants your expertise then they would ask you or your company (don't
 know how BSI works internally).
 Germany ask for my PostgreSQL expertise.

 Of course Peter always was and still is in my background.

 Finland just has no active group yet - afair Peter is working on that
 problem.

You're missing my point completely. You say you represent PostgreSQL
on the SQL Committee (or German working group, but that's not the
point), yet the PostgreSQL hackers didn't know that, and were making
other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.

I'd be glad to see us have representation, but I do not believe we
have had any yet, and whatever you have done so far (which may or may
not be good for us) really doesn't count because it hasn't involved
the project in any way.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Euler Taveira de Oliveira

On 16-09-2011 10:26, Susanne Ebrecht wrote:

On 16.09.2011 08:49, Heikki Linnakangas wrote:


Even if you can't share drafts, would it be possible to give a summary of
things that are being discussed in the committee? That way if there's people
in the community with interests in particular topics, they could contact you
and get involved.


Of course it is. I just not wanted to spam hackers.


But if it is community interest, of course it will bother no one here...


--
   Euler Taveira de Oliveira - Timbira   http://www.timbira.com.br/
   PostgreSQL: Consultoria, Desenvolvimento, Suporte 24x7 e Treinamento

--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

On 16.09.2011 14:38, Merlin Moncure wrote:

So, generally speaking, what kinds of things are going to be brought
up at the ISO meeting?  Is this an opportunity to get postgres special
syntax drafted into the sql standard?


Yes and no.

You first need to convince your country and then - as country 
representative - you need to convince the other countries on ISO level.


You have country based sql standard groups in several countries. The 
well known groups are ANSI for USA,

BSI for UK, DIN for Germany, JTC for Japan and so on.

Inner the country you usually represent your own product.

Usually the country based group members are a mix of research folk (e.g. 
universities) and DB-System companies placed inner the country. Which 
experts they will let in and which not depends on the country based

group.

It is good here to be in a smaller country - because the groups are 
smaller and you can get more of your ideas up to ISO.


All the country based groups together are ISO.

In ISO every country just has a single vote.
This means - even when your country suggested what you wanted then it 
could happen that there are enough countries against it so that your 
idea won't get into the standard.


Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Susanne Ebrecht

On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote:

other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
knowledge of others.


Dave,

I exactly did this with Peter.
Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter.
And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

Susanne

--
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers


Re: [HACKERS] Is there really no interest in SQL Standard?

2011-09-16 Thread Dave Page
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Susanne Ebrecht
susa...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 On 16.09.2011 15:59, Dave Page wrote:

 other plans less than 2 years ago. For me, a representative would have
 been reporting back to us after each meeting, and discussing points to
 raise before each meeting - not working in isolation, without the
 knowledge of others.

 Dave,

 I exactly did this with Peter.
 Afair, I once was told it is enough to report to Peter.
 And as I said - David showed interests and we sometimes talk about it too.
 I never wanted to bother hackers with all this stuff.

-hackers is exactly where we would discuss issues related to
development and design of PostgreSQL.



-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers