Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS - an effort which needs guidance and support.
peder...@ccsscorp.com (Bill Pedersen) writes: I look forward to hearing from people in the PostgreSQL community as well as from others interested in this effort. To a number of us, it's academically interesting, though, as we don't have VMS systems, it's not likely to be super-easy to assist in the matter. It certainly would be interesting to see how easy or difficult the port would be. I suspect that's a more interesting port than, say, Digital UNIX, these days. -- (reverse (concatenate 'string ofni.sesabatadxunil @ enworbbc)) http://linuxfinances.info/info/slony.html On the other hand, you have different fingers. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
David Fetter wrote: Folks, Would it be worthwhile to light up some buildfarm animals on OpenVMS? http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/02/09/2319162 Sure, go for it. cheers andrew -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
David Fetter da...@fetter.org writes: Would it be worthwhile to light up some buildfarm animals on OpenVMS? Have we ever even claimed to support VMS? I have no particular desire to undertake a major new porting effort. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
It could be interesting to see how big a porting effort it was ... ? I'd say go for it and let's see what is involved ... On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Tom Lane wrote: David Fetter da...@fetter.org writes: Would it be worthwhile to light up some buildfarm animals on OpenVMS? Have we ever even claimed to support VMS? I have no particular desire to undertake a major new porting effort. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers Marc G. FournierHub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. scra...@hub.org http://www.hub.org Yahoo:yscrappySkype: hub.orgICQ:7615664MSN:scra...@hub.org -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 08:11:15AM -0500, Andrew Dunstan wrote: David Fetter wrote: Folks, Would it be worthwhile to light up some buildfarm animals on OpenVMS? http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/02/09/2319162 Sure, go for it. cheers andrew Here's what I sent them: First Name : David Last Name : Fetter Organization : PostgreSQL Global Development Group E-mail Address : davidfet...@postgresql.org Products being ported : PostgreSQL We'll also need * Shell access from several accounts * Git or cvs client * Compiler tools * Perl of a fairly recent vintage * Outbound http access Warm Regards, David. -- David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:22 AM, David Fetter wrote: * Shell access from several accounts * Git or cvs client * Compiler tools * Perl of a fairly recent vintage * Outbound http access I had access to the HP testdrive before they closed it down (the Unix servers were down in Sept 08, but the VMS cluster was running till Jan 2010). They blocked all outbound internet access to the testdrive servers -- only telnet and ftp were allowed. Count me in for the OpenVMS porting effort (but I guess I will apply for an account seperately as I might port other things to OpenVMS in the future). I believe the porting effort is larger than a new Unix port but smaller than the Windows port, as most of the Unix and POSIX functions and system calls are supported on OpenVMS. MySQL has around 10 functions changed or written specifically for OpenVMS, most of those are related to utime(), $UMASK $UMASKDIR, open(), and Unix pathnames. (I think utime() support was added a few years ago to OpenVMS 7.3 8.0 -- so may be the code was added to MySQL for earlier VMS versions.) PostgreSQL uses fork(), which is not supported on OpenVMS. However, the techniques used by the WIN32 version of internal_forkexec() in src/backend/postmaster/postmaster.c give the VMS version a good starting point. Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? Rayson Warm Regards, David. -- David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 12:39:29PM -0500, Rayson Ho wrote: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:22 AM, David Fetter wrote: * Shell access from several accounts * Git or cvs client * Compiler tools * Perl of a fairly recent vintage * Outbound http access I had access to the HP testdrive before they closed it down (the Unix servers were down in Sept 08, but the VMS cluster was running till Jan 2010). They blocked all outbound internet access to the testdrive servers -- only telnet and ftp were allowed. Outbound http access is for the buildfarm, which is pretty important to how we develop. Count me in for the OpenVMS porting effort (but I guess I will apply for an account seperately as I might port other things to OpenVMS in the future). I believe the porting effort is larger than a new Unix port but smaller than the Windows port, as most of the Unix and POSIX functions and system calls are supported on OpenVMS. You clearly know vastly more than I do about this, and should lead this effort :) Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? You tell us :) Cheers, David. -- David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
-Original Message- From: pgsql-hackers-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers- ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Rayson Ho Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:39 AM To: David Fetter Cc: Andrew Dunstan; PG Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS? On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:22 AM, David Fetter wrote: * Shell access from several accounts * Git or cvs client * Compiler tools * Perl of a fairly recent vintage * Outbound http access I had access to the HP testdrive before they closed it down (the Unix servers were down in Sept 08, but the VMS cluster was running till Jan 2010). They blocked all outbound internet access to the testdrive servers -- only telnet and ftp were allowed. Count me in for the OpenVMS porting effort (but I guess I will apply for an account seperately as I might port other things to OpenVMS in the future). I believe the porting effort is larger than a new Unix port but smaller than the Windows port, as most of the Unix and POSIX functions and system calls are supported on OpenVMS. MySQL has around 10 functions changed or written specifically for OpenVMS, most of those are related to utime(), $UMASK $UMASKDIR, open(), and Unix pathnames. (I think utime() support was added a few years ago to OpenVMS 7.3 8.0 -- so may be the code was added to MySQL for earlier VMS versions.) PostgreSQL uses fork(), which is not supported on OpenVMS. However, the techniques used by the WIN32 version of internal_forkexec() in src/backend/postmaster/postmaster.c give the VMS version a good starting point. For PostgreSQL, you will probably want to use LIB$SPAWN() as a rough equivalent to CreateProcess() on Windows http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$vaxdocsep002/opsys/vmsos721/5932/5932pro_041.html Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
Dann Corbit wrote: PostgreSQL uses fork(), which is not supported on OpenVMS. However, the techniques used by the WIN32 version of internal_forkexec() in src/backend/postmaster/postmaster.c give the VMS version a good starting point. For PostgreSQL, you will probably want to use LIB$SPAWN() as a rough equivalent to CreateProcess() on Windows Ah, LIB$SPAWN, that brings back memories. http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$vaxdocsep002/opsys/vmsos721/5932/5932pro_041.html Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Dann Corbit wrote: For PostgreSQL, you will probably want to use LIB$SPAWN() as a rough equivalent to CreateProcess() on Windows We will need to support running PostgreSQL as a detached process, and thus it won't have access to the DCL CLI. The implication is that lib$spawn or system() will fail when used this way. http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/794 So we will likely need to use sys$creprc() in internal_forkexec(). Rayson http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$vaxdocsep002/opsys/vmsos721/5932/5932pro_041.html Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? Marc G. FournierHub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. scra...@hub.org http://www.hub.org Yahoo:yscrappySkype: hub.orgICQ:7615664MSN:scra...@hub.org -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? Well, there is going to be impact on the community too --- patches, testing, etc. The community effort is small, but isn't zero. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? That's step one. Step two is community approval. Otherwise, anyone with an idea would be a committer. -- Andrew Chernow eSilo, LLC every bit counts http://www.esilo.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 15:47 -0500, Andrew Chernow wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? That's step one. Step two is community approval. Otherwise, anyone with an idea would be a committer. With all respect to OpenVMS, I really can't help but ask, why?. The maintenance load over time will be large and I can't imagine this being a wide use platform for us. Joshua D. Drake -- Andrew Chernow eSilo, LLC every bit counts http://www.esilo.com/ -- PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564 Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering Respect is earned, not gained through arbitrary and repetitive use or Mr. or Sir. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? Well, there is going to be impact on the community too --- patches, testing, etc. The community effort is small, but isn't zero. But its totally worth it. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
rocr...@gmx.de (Robert Doerfler) writes: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? Well, there is going to be impact on the community too --- patches, testing, etc. The community effort is small, but isn't zero. But its totally worth it. Do we have a patch yet? If it's small and easy, then that points to you being right. If ugly and hairy... then not so much... -- (format nil ~...@~s cbbrowne gmail.com) http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/nonrdbms.html I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed -- Marvin the Paranoid Android -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
scra...@hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) writes: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? But adding it in would require *some* degree of thought on the part of committers as to what might break VMS builds? If someone wants to make a branch to run on VMS, that would be a well and fine thing. It is quite likely that once we're on Git, that might be easily managed by having a repo which feeds off official releases, modifying only in those places where VMS-specific changes are required. It might even turn out to be the case that the patches are sufficiently small and undemanding that it would turn out to be easy to merge into the official release, so as to make it an official platform. I'd not want to assume that up front, though. -- output = reverse(moc.liamg @ enworbbc) http://linuxdatabases.info/info/slony.html As long as each individual is facing the TV tube alone, formal freedom poses no threat to privilege. --Noam Chomsky -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us writes: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: I hate to pour cold water on this, but why is it worth adding support for a platform that has such marginal usage. Because someone feels like dedicating their resources to it ... ? Well, there is going to be impact on the community too --- patches, testing, etc. The community effort is small, but isn't zero. No, I suspect the community effort would be *large*. VMS is sufficiently unlike Unix that this port would probably be akin to the Windows port in terms of invasiveness, fragility, and general need for everyone to bend over backwards for it. The discussion about fork substitutes should give you some idea of what we'd be in for. I think the odds of getting the community to support such a port are not easily distinguishable from zero, and I agree with Bruce's desire to dissuade anyone from pouring effort down the drain. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
All, In my 12 years on the PostgreSQL project, this is the 2nd time, ever, I've heard a question about OpenVMS support. The previous time was in 2003. Maybe there's an untapped community out there, but personally I think we'd find more users on z/OS than on OpenVMS. --Josh Berkus -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: In my 12 years on the PostgreSQL project, this is the 2nd time, ever, I've heard a question about OpenVMS support. The previous time was in 2003. Well, a search of our archives for OpenVMS finds a few more, but it still looks like about one request a year. If we could have a port for an amount of effort roughly commensurate with that level of interest, I'd be all for it. But I'm afraid the work would be far out of proportion to that. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] OpenVMS?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:02 PM, David Fetter wrote: You clearly know vastly more than I do about this, and should lead this effort :) I have been working on OpenVMS on and off for a few years, but I am sure a lot of people are more qualified than I am :) I guess I will create a page in the PostgreSQL wiki about the port, and put the ToDOs list in there. To others: Given that Ingres was ported to OpenVMS, and given that many other opensource apps have been ported to OpenVMS without a lot of effort, I believe we should at least try before giving up OpenVMS. Rayson P.S. Ingres has a number of VMS users: http://community.ingres.com/forum/dba-forum/653-will-ingres-ported-openvms-itanium.html http://www.groupsrv.com/computers/post-3095363.html Lastly, are we going to support ODS-2 disks?? And are we going to require GNV installed for building and running PostgreSQL on OpenVMS?? You tell us :) Cheers, David. -- David Fetter da...@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fet...@gmail.com iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
