Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-28 Thread Jan Wieck
Bruce Momjian wrote: See my recent commit of src/tools/pgtest. It might be a good start. I was wondering if some existing framework, like from the Apache Xalan package, would be a better point to start from? I hate to say it, Bruce, but you try to reinvent the wheel by starting with a sled.

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-28 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Jan Wieck wrote: Bruce Momjian wrote: See my recent commit of src/tools/pgtest. It might be a good start. I was wondering if some existing framework, like from the Apache Xalan package, would be a better point to start from? I hate to say it, Bruce, but you try to

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-27 Thread Peter Eisentraut
Tom Lane writes: This is something that breaks regularly because few of the key developers use it :-(. If there were automatic tests that used that build setup, it would be a good thing 'cause it'd keep us honest. This should be included in 'make distcheck'. I'm quite puzzled right now why

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-27 Thread Peter Eisentraut
Thomas Swan writes: I just am really concerned about the uninstall/clean up phase and how that can be done in an orderly fashion. Unless the process can start from a clean state again, then it won't be valid. The only clean state is if you remove the entire source tree and check it out

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-27 Thread Peter Eisentraut
Bruce Momjian writes: Amazing you find 688 bytes worth discussing. I know you said what happens if everyone adds their scripts, but something that would be a mess if everyone did it isn't always a proper way to judge if something is appropriate. I said, if everyone adds their test

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-27 Thread Thomas Swan
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Thomas Swan writes: I just am really concerned about the uninstall/clean up phase and how that can be done in an orderly fashion. Unless the process can start from a clean state again, then it won't be valid. The only clean state is if you remove the entire

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-27 Thread Bruce Momjian
Wow, I am impressed by 'gmake check'. Who did all that work? It is great. I modified tools/pgtest to use 'gmake check'. Thanks. --- Peter Eisentraut wrote: Bruce Momjian writes: Amazing you find 688 bytes worth

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Thomas Swan
Tom Lane wrote: Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thomas Swan writes: Have you considered something similar to the Mozilla tinderbox approach where you have a daemon checkout the cvs, compile, run regression tests, and report a status or be able to report a status? Even

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Tom Lane
Thomas Swan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is it possible the sourceforge compile farms could be used for some of the automated testing? I'm not sure how that system works, but it could be worth looking into. The last time I used it (which admittedly was a year or two back), they didn't really

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Nigel J. Andrews
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas Swan wrote: Is it possible the sourceforge compile farms could be used for some of the automated testing? I'm not sure how that system works, but it could be worth looking into. Isn't the sourceforge license very scary and along the lines of whatever you put

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Thomas Swan
Nigel J. Andrews wrote: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas Swan wrote: Is it possible the sourceforge compile farms could be used for some of the automated testing? I'm not sure how that system works, but it could be worth looking into. Isn't the sourceforge license very scary and along

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Austin Gonyou
I know I'm new to this list, but is OSDL's testing capabilities out of the question? On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 13:48, Thomas Swan wrote: Nigel J. Andrews wrote: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas Swan wrote: Is it possible the sourceforge compile farms could be used for some of the automated

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Rod Taylor
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 15:00, Austin Gonyou wrote: I know I'm new to this list, but is OSDL's testing capabilities out of the question? From what I've seen, OSDL is only concerned with a very very small set of platforms (Linux in a couple of configurations). -- Rod Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Gonyou, Austin
DOH!. YesYou're right I totally forgot about that. My apologies. I believe though, that there is a HP testing lab that is somewhat like OSDL, in that they offer OSS free services and many platforms to run on. (used to be compaq's developer testdrive sort of program) I believe it still exists.

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Rod Taylor
* clean the source, destination directories * pull latest CVS tip down. Why tip? Lets simply update the current source tree to the most current of whatever branch they had checked out initially. Running it on older stable branches is just as useful. * record environment /

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Rod Taylor
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 16:09, Gonyou, Austin wrote: DOH!. YesYou're right I totally forgot about that. My apologies. I believe though, that there is a HP testing lab that is somewhat like OSDL, in that they offer OSS free services and many platforms to run on. (used to be compaq's developer

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Gonyou, Austin
-Original Message- From: Rod Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:33 PM To: Gonyou, Austin Cc: Thomas Swan; Nigel J. Andrews; Tom Lane; PostgreSQL Development Subject: RE: Two weeks to feature freeze On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 16:09, Gonyou, Austin wrote: DOH!.

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas Swan wrote: Of course, these are just ideas and I'm not sure how practical it is to do any of them. I just am really concerned about the uninstall/clean up phase and how that can be done in an orderly fashion. Unless the process can start from a clean state

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Rod Taylor wrote: I think we should replace Bruce's pgtest script with this one -- with an argument to accept the email address to report to for FAILING cases. Success isn't very interesting if it runs regularly. that was why I suggested getting it into the tree ... to at

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Thomas Swan
The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas Swan wrote: Of course, these are just ideas and I'm not sure how practical it is to do any of them. I just am really concerned about the uninstall/clean up phase and how that can be done in an orderly fashion. Unless the process can start

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Kevin Brown
The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: So...would it make sense to create a gborg project to which people who have written their own test suites can contribute whatever code and data they feel comfortable releasing? As a gborg project, it would be separate

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: It doesn't sound like a bad idea ... but, it pretty much comes down to the original thread: are you willing to step up and maintain such a project? Yes, I am (how hard can it be?, he asks himself, knowing all the while that it's a really bad idea to

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Gavin Sherry
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: So...would it make sense to create a gborg project to which people who have written their own test suites can contribute whatever code and data they feel comfortable releasing?

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Bruce Momjian
See my recent commit of src/tools/pgtest. It might be a good start. --- Gavin Sherry wrote: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote:

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Tom Lane
Rod Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've not tried, but if PostgreSQL can do an 'out of tree' compile it could make it much easier. Yes it can, following the usual procedure for autoconfiscated trees: just invoke configure from an empty directory, eg mkdir build cd build

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-26 Thread Gavin Sherry
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: See my recent commit of src/tools/pgtest. It might be a good start. Yes this is a good start. This is a little concerning though: pg_ctl stop rm -rf $PGDATA Perhaps a warning is warranted (ie, $PGDATA shouldn't point to your production data

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread scott.marlowe
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed. Its

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Kaare Rasmussen
That seems too vague for TODO. We might as well add Make PostgreSQL faster. :-) 'K, can you add that one too? :) How about * Remove all bugs from the source. Can you put that in TODO ? :-) -- Kaare Rasmussen--Linux, spil,--Tlf:3816 2582 Kaki Data

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Jan Wieck
Kaare Rasmussen wrote: That seems too vague for TODO. We might as well add Make PostgreSQL faster. :-) 'K, can you add that one too? :) How about * Remove all bugs from the source. Can you put that in TODO ? :-) Change that into * Remove bugs from source code and get a patent on it. Should

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Andreas Pflug
Jan Wieck wrote: Change that into * Remove bugs from source code and get a patent on it. Should be a nobrainer (as in those guy's have no brains) considering that NetFlix even got a patent on DVD subscription rentals: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/24/1458223mode=flattid=155tid=99

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Shridhar Daithankar
On 25 Jun 2003 at 14:50, Andreas Pflug wrote: Jan Wieck wrote: Change that into * Remove bugs from source code and get a patent on it. Should be a nobrainer (as in those guy's have no brains) considering that NetFlix even got a patent on DVD subscription rentals:

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Kaare Rasmussen
Change that into * Remove bugs from source code and get a patent on it. Should be a nobrainer (as in those guy's have no brains) considering that NetFlix even got a patent on DVD subscription rentals: And for all the nice royalty money*, think about what can be done to PostgreSQL. Maybe even

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Josh Berkus
Jan, There have been a good number of examples where the one who raised an issue isn't just of the format to implement it. So someone else jumped in and did it instead. I don't need to pick any particular samples, you know that it happened a few times. Sure. But in those cases, the

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Tom Lane
Josh Berkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3) Dann is proposing not just a feature but sweeping changes to the way our commmunity works, despite having been a member of this community for about 3 weeks total. In Dann's defense, I didn't think I heard him proposing that we get rid of our existing

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Kevin Brown
Tom Lane wrote: Josh Berkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3) Dann is proposing not just a feature but sweeping changes to the way our commmunity works, despite having been a member of this community for about 3 weeks total. In Dann's defense, I didn't think I heard him proposing that we

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Josh Berkus
Kevin, So...would it make sense to create a gborg project to which people who have written their own test suites can contribute whatever code and data they feel comfortable releasing? As a gborg project, it would be separate from the main PG distribution and would thus have no impact on the

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: On 25 Jun 2003 at 14:50, Andreas Pflug wrote: Jan Wieck wrote: Change that into * Remove bugs from source code and get a patent on it. Should be a nobrainer (as in those guy's have no brains) considering that NetFlix even got a patent on

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kevin Brown wrote: So...would it make sense to create a gborg project to which people who have written their own test suites can contribute whatever code and data they feel comfortable releasing? As a gborg project, it would be separate from the main PG distribution and

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-25 Thread Jan Wieck
Doesn't matter, this entire approach has a fundamental flaw. If the lungs are empty ... that means that the guy has an open thorax, the lungs are collapsed, and you'll probably have problems catching his attention to make your claim. Jan The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Shridhar

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Jan Wieck
Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:30 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze [snip] I personally think

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Robert Treat
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 21:36, The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote: The target-date-based approach we've taken in the last couple of releases seems much more productive. productive on a small scale; for sure. productive for large scale features...

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Bruce Momjian
Robert Treat wrote: the whole discussion is based on how do we get big projects done when no one is motivated to work on 'foo' until there faced with a deadline; this idea puts the pressure on 'foo' developers from the get go. i'm not saying this a guaranteed way to solve that problem but i

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
'K, and do you have any ETA on when you'll have this translated into some useful tests that we can incorporate? On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: Here is a list of a small sample of the citations available from the ACM on software testing:

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:30 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: Would it be nice if we had more tests? Yes. In fact, one of the items on my personal todo list is to devise a more versatile performance test than pgbench for testing postgresql parameters, builds, and installations. But it's not getting

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 21:36, The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote: The target-date-based approach we've taken in the last couple of releases seems much more productive. productive on a small scale; for

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:26 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze On Mon, 23

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed. Its worked for us ... Wait, I know what should make you happy ... it won't

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Bruce Momjian
The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed. Its worked for us ... Wait, I know what

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:10 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Bruce Momjian
Message- From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:10 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: Don't care and won't do are not the same thing. Well, actually, they are ... if someone doesn't care, they aren't going to do, are they? You have had the time to do everything you ever cared about? No no, that isn't what he is arguing (or I'm

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Jan Wieck
The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed. Its worked for us ... Sorry Marc, but that ain't

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread Jan Wieck
The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question is also the one who must fix the issue raised? A

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-24 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Jan Wieck wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: The Hermit Hacker wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: I did something about it. I raised the issue. Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Mike Mascari
I wrote: Tom Lane wrote: Basically, the subordinate must be willing to hold its breath *forever*. Yep. And if the cohort crashes while waiting for the coordinator to come back on-line, if I understand the world correctly, it must be capable of committing the database changes

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: Crash-me has nothing to do with testing, it jsut checks to see what features a db supports: An interesting point is that until recently, crashme said that the postgresql backend crashed on very large queries. The actual problem was that

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: Maybe a better strategy would be to get a release out soon but not wait 6 months for another release which would contain the Win32 port and the PITR stuff (assuming those aren't done in time for this release). What

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Peter Eisentraut
The Hermit Hacker writes: Ya, the script looked like it did a bit more then just a 'make clean; make check' ... doesn't it? No. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Peter Eisentraut wrote: The Hermit Hacker writes: Ya, the script looked like it did a bit more then just a 'make clean; make check' ... doesn't it? No. Well, it is a nice test template for people who aren't shell script experts, and I have been in the habit of pushing stuff I use into

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Robert Treat
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 22:55, Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: Maybe a better strategy would be to get a release out soon but not wait 6 months for another release which would contain the Win32 port and the PITR stuff (assuming those aren't done in time for this release).

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Robert Treat
On Monday 23 June 2003 10:43 am, Tom Lane wrote: Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's a sure to be wildly unpopular suggestion: Make the deciding factor for the next release support of foo (foo can be win32, pitr, replication, 2PC, whatever...). We've done that before (see WAL

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Tom Lane
Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's a sure to be wildly unpopular suggestion: Make the deciding factor for the next release support of foo (foo can be win32, pitr, replication, 2PC, whatever...). We've done that before (see WAL in 7.1), with unhappy results. The fundamental problem

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: The Hermit Hacker writes: Ya, the script looked like it did a bit more then just a 'make clean; make check' ... doesn't it? No. Well, it is a nice test template for people who aren't shell script experts, and I

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Andrew Dunstan
Scott MArlowe wrote: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: The big puzzle is how do you get people (including myself) motivated to work on a feature that takes a _huge_ amount of work to see any payoff? I would like to know. Anyone? Pizza? :-) Unfortunately it's off my diet :-(

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:30 PM To: Jan Wieck Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Dann Corbit; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, Jan

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:45 AM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: Tom Lane

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Peter Eisentraut
Bruce Momjian writes: Well, it is a nice test template for people who aren't shell script experts, and I have been in the habit of pushing stuff I use into /tools so it is available for others. I know and I'm not happy about it. The PostgreSQL source tree isn't a repository of everyone's

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Tom Lane
Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What do you think is the way to become an insider? Join the CVS tree and make a large and valuable contribution to the project. For instance, developing an industrial-strength test suite? If you've got an itch there, scratch it.

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:50 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze Dann Corbit wrote: That is the worst possible test plan

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Bruce Momjian writes: Well, it is a nice test template for people who aren't shell script experts, and I have been in the habit of pushing stuff I use into /tools so it is available for others. I know and I'm not happy about it. The PostgreSQL source tree isn't

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Dann Corbit wrote: PostgreSQL is a fairly mature product, having been in existence in one form or another for many years now. I expect that most of the bugs that surface will be in areas of new functionality. Great Bridge had the right idea though. Let's suppose that they ran 10,000

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Peter Eisentraut
Bruce Momjian writes: I put stuff in /tools so if something happens to me, you guys can keep going. Yes, we keep going with make clean; make check, like everyone else. Why don't you consider using that? -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: Vendor A: We think our tool is pretty solid and our end users hardly ever turn up any bugs. Vendor B: We think our tool is pretty solid and our 8500 tests currently show only 3 defects with the released version, and these are low impact issues. To

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: Bruce Momjian writes: Well, it is a nice test template for people who aren't shell script experts, and I have been in the habit of pushing stuff I use into /tools so it is available for others. I know and I'm

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Bruce Momjian writes: I put stuff in /tools so if something happens to me, you guys can keep going. Yes, we keep going with make clean; make check, like everyone else. Why don't you consider using that? The script is automated to run at night, it captures gmake

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Bruce Momjian writes: I put stuff in /tools so if something happens to me, you guys can keep going. Yes, we keep going with make clean; make check, like everyone else. Why don't you consider using that? Actually, I used to manually do all those tests to test

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: scott.marlowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
scott.marlowe wrote: Peter is coming off awfully paternalistic here. I'd rather have a few extra scripts to look through to find what I need when I'm trying to figure out something than to have a tool that only the hackers know exists and I can only get by asking nicely to see the pretty

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Bruce Momjian
Dann Corbit wrote: Let me rephrase it: Only a cohesive, organized testing effort can result in a product that is proven reliable. Without such an effort, it is only an educated guess as to whether the product is reliable or not. The data is the most valuable software component in an

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread scott.marlowe
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: scott.marlowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Nigel J. Andrews
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: scott.marlowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Nigel J. Andrews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:30 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze [snip] So you've never worked

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Lamar Owen
On Monday 23 June 2003 15:42, Dann Corbit wrote: Let me rephrase it: Only a cohesive, organized testing effort can result in a product that is proven reliable. One can never 100% prove reliability without time in the field with real-world data, testing or no testing. I would dare say that

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote: The target-date-based approach we've taken in the last couple of releases seems much more productive. productive on a small scale; for sure. productive for large scale features... well, that's why it's being discussed. 'K, but if we extend the

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread The Hermit Hacker
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: The resistance to testing is typical of programmers. The PostgreSQL group is a group of programmers. I don't think I can change anyone's mind, since the most significant people on the list don't think it is worth the bother. Therefore, I am going to

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Jan Wieck
Thank's Robert, that was probably what Bruce needs to call me every other hour now ... Jan Robert Treat wrote: On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 22:55, Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: Maybe a better strategy would be to get a release out soon but not wait 6 months for another release which

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Jan Wieck
Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What do you think is the way to become an insider? Join the CVS tree and make a large and valuable contribution to the project. Go ahead, let's see it. I have contributed a lot of crap over the years. After

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Jan Wieck
scott.marlowe wrote: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote: [Dann Corbit wrote a lot] [...] It may be reassuring to think your product is very well tested before it goes out the door, but it's a false security, proven over and over by commercial products that simply don't work in the field

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:10 PM To: scott.marlowe Cc: Dann Corbit; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze scott.marlowe wrote: On Mon

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
Here is a list of a small sample of the citations available from the ACM on software testing: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=581358coll=portaldl=ACMCFID=657 0092CFTOKEN=81653602 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=376180coll=portaldl=ACMCFID=657 0092CFTOKEN=81653602

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Jan Wieck
Dann Corbit wrote: -Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:10 PM To: scott.marlowe Cc: Dann Corbit; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze scott.marlowe wrote

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Jan Wieck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:30 PM To: Dann Corbit Cc: scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze [snip] I personally think you don't

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Josh Berkus
Dann, Astute members of the list have noticed that I have not volunteered to perform the work. I may or may not produce some efforts towards testing PostgreSQL. Whether I decide to help or not is irrelevant towards the concept of what needs to be done. It is not irrelevant. This is an

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-23 Thread Dann Corbit
-Original Message- From: Josh Berkus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:50 PM To: Dann Corbit; Jan Wieck Cc: scott.marlowe; Bruce Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze Dann, Astute

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-22 Thread Mike Mascari
- Original Message - From: Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom said that our low-hanging fruit is gone and only hard items are left. This is certainly true. What is hard to accept is that those big items take _weeks_ of focused development, and we just don't have enough full-time

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-22 Thread Andreas Pflug
Tom Lane wrote: I spent weeks doing hash aggregates, weeks doing IN-subselect optimization, and am in the middle of many weeks on FE/BE protocol improvement. I am sorry that you don't see these as killer features ... but they are all things that we desperately needed to do. For me, the 7.4

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-22 Thread Bruce Momjian
Mike Mascari wrote: I was disappointed that Satoshi Nagayasu's two-phase commit patches seemed to be implicitly rejected by lack of an enthusiastic response by any of the core members. Distributed query (not replication) would have been a very nice feature. It's what separates, in part,

Re: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze

2003-06-22 Thread Jan Wieck
Tom Lane wrote: BTW, I would not approve of a response along the lines of can't you #ifdef to the point that there are no code changes in the Unix builds? No you can't, unless you want to end up with an unmaintainable mess of #ifdef spaghetti. The thing that makes this hard is the tradeoff

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