Re: [Phono-L] Credenza speed readout needle chatter
George Vollema at Great Lakes Antique Phonographs is excellent. I work on them too, but am a hobbiest. Im in MA but near Providence RI. Ron L From: Phono-L [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright via Phono-L Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 11:10 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Cc: Robert Wright Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Credenza speed readout needle chatter Well, after another round of removing and cleaning the indicator mech, and putting a longer pad (which didn't help at all) and adjusting this and that, I decided to just leave the damned thing off for a while so I could simply enjoy my phonograph for a few days And the noise is still there. The clacking component of the sound, it turns out, was actually the governor "arm" that gets lowered by the speed adjustment screw on top, at the point of contact between them. So at this point, it's a governor problem, evidently. Is there anyone on this list I can send this motor for repair/adjustment? I simply don't have the time nor the skills to take it all apart and get it right, but I do have money. I'm all about learning to fix these machines and have done lots of work on them, but I need some expert help on this one. I just don't have it in me. Anyone? Thanks, Robert On Sep 13, 2019, at 6:22 PM, SN Medved via Phono-L wrote: WD-40 is not a lubricant. It works good as a cleaner or to displace water, but not as a lubricant. Liquid Bearings works well and has no smell and is synthetic. Steve _ From: Phono-L on behalf of Robert Wright via Phono-L Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:34 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Cc: Robert Wright Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Credenza speed readout needle chatter Firstly, thank you both for the detailed info! Ron, it looks like your suggestions are aimed at reducing vibration from the governor mech itself, the application of which makes perfect sense. I just may try that on all the motors here, in fact. Thank you! Andrew, it sounds like you're suggesting that once the indicator arbor is in (let's call it) 78rpm position, it is in that specific axis (or axes) where the hole may have become enlarged and/or the arbor's pivot post has become polished -- i.e., there's no chatter at other speeds because the indicator pad is in a different position, placing the posts where the wear has not occurred. This makes perfect sense to me, especially as the indicator chatter happens with at least one other motor here (a spring one, not the electric one I initially wrote about). I'm sure both machines have operated at 78rpm or thereabouts their entire lives, indeed. It also makes sense that adding grease to the pad helps, but only for a few plays -- once it has cleared out of the path, the posts are again in (let's call it) chatter position. In that light, would you think installing a significantly longer leather pad into the arbor would change its rotational position enough to place it into a "fresh" spot? It would also increase the return spring tension slightly, which may help alleviate chatter. Doesn't seem like it would take much, perhaps an additional 16th - 8th of an inch. It might get another 100 years of chatter-free use if so. Thoughts? (I've also used a spritz of WD-40 to lubricate the post holes -- perhaps I'll slather a fingertip of grease on them instead.) I also considered sympathetic resonance, but I don't know how much the math lines up, considering it is a range of speeds (albeit a narrow one) while the 60Hz vibration is more or less constant (I realize the 60Hz vibration and any errant governor vibration are two different things). But the hole wear, in my mind, lines up to that problem range quite well! I say it often in my emails here, but it bears repeating once again: to someone like me who loves phonographs much more than they have technically studied them, this list isn't just a handy resource, it's a lifeline. Thank you, gentlemen. Reporting back soon, Robert PS - In my defense, I never said the source of the chatter was the point of contact between the pad and the flywheel! I only meant to describe the symptom, i.e., where the noise occurred, not the underlying disease that might suggest a cure. I just get in a hurry sometimes. I'll try to be clearer! :-) On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Andrew Baron via Phono-L wrote: Hi Robert. Intriguing problem, and I think I may be able to shed a little light. My supposition could be wrong, but if you look at the physics of the thing, it could point to not one issue ( obviously the contact point between the leather nib ), but more likely two issues. You have to raise your perception above where the symptoms cause would appear to originate, and look at the whole picture. The key to solving your mystery may be directly related to something you conveyed very precisely, that the issue occurs over an extremely narrow
Re: [Phono-L] Credenza speed readout needle chatter
Well, after another round of removing and cleaning the indicator mech, and putting a longer pad (which didn't help at all) and adjusting this and that, I decided to just leave the damned thing off for a while so I could simply enjoy my phonograph for a few days… And the noise is still there. The clacking component of the sound, it turns out, was actually the governor "arm" that gets lowered by the speed adjustment screw on top, at the point of contact between them. So at this point, it's a governor problem, evidently. Is there anyone on this list I can send this motor for repair/adjustment? I simply don't have the time nor the skills to take it all apart and get it right, but I do have money. I'm all about learning to fix these machines and have done lots of work on them, but I need some expert help on this one. I just don't have it in me. Anyone? Thanks, Robert On Sep 13, 2019, at 6:22 PM, SN Medved via Phono-L mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org>> wrote: WD-40 is not a lubricant. It works good as a cleaner or to displace water, but not as a lubricant. Liquid Bearings works well and has no smell and is synthetic. Steve From: Phono-L mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org>> on behalf of Robert Wright via Phono-L mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org>> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:34 PM To: Antique Phonograph List mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org>> Cc: Robert Wright mailto:esrobe...@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Credenza speed readout needle chatter Firstly, thank you both for the detailed info! Ron, it looks like your suggestions are aimed at reducing vibration from the governor mech itself, the application of which makes perfect sense. I just may try that on all the motors here, in fact. Thank you! Andrew, it sounds like you're suggesting that once the indicator arbor is in (let's call it) 78rpm position, it is in that specific axis (or axes) where the hole may have become enlarged and/or the arbor's pivot post has become polished -- i.e., there's no chatter at other speeds because the indicator pad is in a different position, placing the posts where the wear has not occurred. This makes perfect sense to me, especially as the indicator chatter happens with at least one other motor here (a spring one, not the electric one I initially wrote about). I'm sure both machines have operated at 78rpm or thereabouts their entire lives, indeed. It also makes sense that adding grease to the pad helps, but only for a few plays -- once it has cleared out of the path, the posts are again in (let's call it) chatter position. In that light, would you think installing a significantly longer leather pad into the arbor would change its rotational position enough to place it into a "fresh" spot? It would also increase the return spring tension slightly, which may help alleviate chatter. Doesn't seem like it would take much, perhaps an additional 16th - 8th of an inch. It might get another 100 years of chatter-free use if so. Thoughts? (I've also used a spritz of WD-40 to lubricate the post holes -- perhaps I'll slather a fingertip of grease on them instead.) I also considered sympathetic resonance, but I don't know how much the math lines up, considering it is a range of speeds (albeit a narrow one) while the 60Hz vibration is more or less constant (I realize the 60Hz vibration and any errant governor vibration are two different things). But the hole wear, in my mind, lines up to that problem range quite well! I say it often in my emails here, but it bears repeating once again: to someone like me who loves phonographs much more than they have technically studied them, this list isn't just a handy resource, it's a lifeline. Thank you, gentlemen. Reporting back soon, Robert PS - In my defense, I never said the source of the chatter was the point of contact between the pad and the flywheel! I only meant to describe the symptom, i.e., where the noise occurred, not the underlying disease that might suggest a cure. I just get in a hurry sometimes. I'll try to be clearer! :-) On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Andrew Baron via Phono-L mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org>> wrote: Hi Robert. Intriguing problem, and I think I may be able to shed a little light. My supposition could be wrong, but if you look at the physics of the thing, it could point to not one issue (“…obviously the contact point between the leather nib…”), but more likely two issues. You have to raise your perception above where the symptom’s cause would appear to originate, and look at the whole picture. The key to solving your mystery may be directly related to something you conveyed very precisely, that the issue occurs over an extremely narrow band of speeds. So, it appears that we have a primary cause (vibration source at the leather and flywheel), exacerbated or amplified by a secondary condition, which I will assume is marginal wear in the holes that the leather pad
