Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-05 Thread mlwmohawk
John Lim Wrote: If the cluster cannot handle the load, then the queues will just get longer and longer. It's interesting that mlwmohawk asked about this because msession is a lightweight session handler without rdbms overhead. Similarly queuing is used instead of a real database for

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-05 Thread mlwmohawk
Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-05 Thread Sterling Hughes
Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. Well, he can't help it, making broad generalizations about a culture is a trademarked german concept...

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-05 Thread Kristian Koehntopp
Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2002 14:26 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. Or else! :-) Kristian -- PHP Development Mailing

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-05 Thread Lukas Smith
PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2002 14:26 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread Kristian Koehntopp
Am Montag, 3. Juni 2002 18:11 schrieb Sebastian Bergmann: Zeev Suraski wrote: Hmm, because he's bigger? :) I can live with that :) Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian -- PHP Development Mailing List

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Kristian Koehntopp wrote: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Pax Americana replaced Pax Romana a while ago :) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 12:34 PM 6/4/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Kristian Koehntopp wrote: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Pax Americana replaced Pax Romana a while ago :) 'cept there's no pax... -- PHP Development Mailing List

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread mlwmohawk
John Lim Wrote: Hi, I like the PHP language the way it is with some exceptions. Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. My main problem with PHP's direction is that it seems stuck at the low-end

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread John Lim
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message I am not a fan of 100% fully redundant systems. I think the expense of such systems are rarely justified, and unless you have REALLY done the work to understand what all your points of failure are, you are wasting your time and money. Hello mlwmohawk, If

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread John Lim
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim Wrote: Hi, - advanced queueing Queuing of what? Say you are Amazon or some similar company and has a fancy cluster for order processing. As orders come in, the cluster cannot handle the peak load,

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread John Lim
Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John, If your authentication class holds the passwords inside wouldn't running the 'strings' utility on the file reveal all the passwords even if the php script is Zend Encoded? Ilia Hi Ilia, Don't

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread Ilia A.
Hi Ilia, Don't know, but it sure looks like encrypted mud. This isn't a.out you know. Perhaps we should ask Zeev or Andi :-) That could very well be the case, but anyone who can compile php/zend with debugging symbols and has a debuger like gdb or ddd will be able to easily grab the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread John Lim
Dan Kalowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, John Lim wrote: Say you are Amazon or some similar company and has a fancy cluster for order processing. As orders come in, the cluster cannot handle the peak load, so we need

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-04 Thread John Lim
Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Ilia, Don't know, but it sure looks like encrypted mud. This isn't a.out you know. Perhaps we should ask Zeev or Andi :-) That could very well be the case, but anyone who can compile php/zend

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread John Lim
Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: So what really ARE the needs of more advanced developers? (I'm starting to sound like a broken record now :) --Jani Hi, I like the PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Björn Schotte
Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Scott Carr
One problem you run into with this kind of project is making the project be a BE-ALL-END-ALL to every problem. (Kind of recursive, eh) - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing - application deployment without restarting server - advanced

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Sander Steffann
Hi, And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Markus Fischer
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:48:48AM +0200, Björn Schotte wrote : Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. This is true, but ... there is

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread John Lim
Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about security. We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 09:48 AM 6/3/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing? Because not every web designer and semi-programmer could then work with PHP - this lacks the image of PHP. (PHP ist only good for guestbooks and very

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Melvyn Sopacua
At 10:18 3-6-2002, Markus Fischer shared with all of us: This is true, but ... there is absolutely _nothing_ we can do about it. The QA Team is, well .. sometimes I get the impression it's only one person! Derick had a good thing going, when he emailed people who reported problems

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
John, Whether we end up having private methods or not, it's way beyond their scope to address the issue of security, and protecting data from someone who has access to their code. It's always possible to work around that level of 'security', whether it's in C++, Java or any other language.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-03 Thread Kristian Koehntopp
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:17:34AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? I think we should hash out this issue as soon as possible, because if people have a vision of

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread derick
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Melvyn Sopacua wrote: At 10:18 3-6-2002, Markus Fischer shared with all of us: This is true, but ... there is absolutely _nothing_ we can do about it. The QA Team is, well .. sometimes I get the impression it's only one person! Derick had a good thing

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Kristian Koehntopp
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 02:38:50PM +0800, John Lim wrote: Let me explain. I'm developing extranets with PHP and occasionally I get a checklist of required features from a customer. Features such as: - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Kristian Koehntopp
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:44:05PM +0800, John Lim wrote: We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 12:28 PM 6/3/2002, Kristian Koehntopp wrote: I think that PHP should be only as newbie hostile as security dictates (register_globals off and similar stuff). It should be as convenient and easy to use as possible. It should also provide hooks and means to reconfigure it manually for those

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely don't. And in most cases I wouldn't use J2EE either but

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread mlwmohawk
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... Maybe it

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread mlwmohawk
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... Maybe it

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: Is something/someone preventing anyone from doing all this? Look at the discussion that followed the proposition of bundling libxml/libxslt with PHP. Does bundling anything really solve any problems? Or does it

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 04:28 PM 6/3/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. That's a problem with the lack of proper QA. And also the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Edin Kadribasic
And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread brad lafountain
--- Edin Kadribasic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Björn Schotte
Hi Jani, Any examples? Is PHP too easy to use? :) I find that hard swallow. It's one of the main features why I am using PHP. Yep, but IMHO it's also one of its main 'bugs' in the sense of lacking its image. Web designer, Photoshoppers and every allrounder in small to mid-sized

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Phil Driscoll
On Monday 03 June 2002 3:35 pm, brad lafountain wrote: Now good OO design is the best way to get good code re-use out of your time developing. In your opinion! In my opinion the best way is to think hard and design your stuff well. For this I don't need my language fattening up and slowing

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread derick
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf
I have heard this argument a couple of times now. It basically boils down to, PHP is too easy to use which means that non-programmers end up writing bad code and this hurts PHP. I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. PHP enables people to bring their ideas to life even

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Lukas Smith
: +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:50 PM To: Björn Schotte Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision I have heard this argument a couple of times now

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Björn Schotte
* Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. I don't want to offense those people out there that use PHP but don't know how to program at all. I only want to share my observations I've made in the last year(s). As already said, I don't have a solution

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread salna
PHP != Java. :) I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO development. Now

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Lukas Smith
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM To: Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision * Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. I don't want to offense those people out there that use PHP

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 06:03 PM 6/3/2002, Lukas Smith wrote: (I wonder why none of them read this list and said that they want to make PHP Enterprise ready ...) You're kidding, right? (it doesn't mean that that's what we're going to do). Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe,

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Lukas Smith
www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 5:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision At 06:03 PM 6/3/2002, Lukas Smith wrote: Zeev -- PHP Development

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread brad lafountain
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Jani Taskinen wrote: Currently, the bundled mysql is not been updated. (it's 3.23.39) Latest stable release is 3.23.49, AFAIK. I am told that Monty will see to it that Zak gets it updated before the next release :-) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: Amen to that! Why does Kristian recieve an Amen to that! for saying the same things I did? :-) (Maybe the padavan should express himself more clearly.) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 06:43 PM 6/3/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: Amen to that! Why does Kristian recieve an Amen to that! for saying the same things I did? :-) Hmm, because he's bigger? :) Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit:

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread derick
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: [...] It's kinda frustrating to me, I like php alot and php defintly has the potentional to be used for a wide virity of soultions. Then you guys are going back and forth saying that OO design has a minimanl affect on the community and that OO is

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: Hmm, because he's bigger? :) I can live with that :) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Zak Greant
On Mon, 2002-06-03 at 09:39, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: Currently, the bundled mysql is not been updated. (it's 3.23.39) Latest stable release is 3.23.49, AFAIK. I am told that Monty will see to it that Zak gets it updated before the next release :-) Yep. I

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Ilia A.
John, If your authentication class holds the passwords inside wouldn't running the 'strings' utility on the file reveal all the passwords even if the php script is Zend Encoded? Ilia On June 3, 2002 04:44 am, John Lim wrote: Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Andi Gutmans
At 03:27 PM 6/3/2002 +0300, Jani Taskinen wrote: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Melvyn Sopacua
At 17:52 3-6-2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] shared with all of us: The Zend engine is pretty strong, except for OO things, as it was not designed with that in mind. Now I don't think OO is clutter, it's quite nice, but IMO there are other things more important (for example the 1178 open bug reports)

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Ilia A.
just look at the most known opensource web applications written in php. how many of them are coded not using objects? the ones that don't use objects are most likely coming from the old php3 times, like phpmyadmin. so developers are eager to use oop features of php, despite the fact that

[Fwd: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision]

2002-06-03 Thread Brian Foddy
I admit I haven't been following this thread closely, but I agree and don't think PHP should be trying to write a transaction system itself. I do think it should try to interface with existing systems tho so PHP can become the front-end for them. I have a good start on a Tuxedo interface

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-03 Thread Shane Caraveo
Making PHP work a certain way because a specific platform doesn't have the different items should not be a deciding factor. wrong. It's absolutely a major factor. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Björn Schotte
* Sebastian Bergmann wrote: For most PHP programmers, mixing PHP and HTML (or using a template system of some kind to avoid this) is enough. These are the users of the quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. I fully

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: It's great that PHP is so easy to learn and that you can get good results without investing too much time (and therefore, too much money). But as web sites get more and more complex (guestbooks are boring, integrating PHP applications into complex

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: layout with some logic. For many of those, PHP is / was the first programming language they learned. I wonder if that's good or bad thing? :) There are also a number of people for whom the above is not enough. They strive for the

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Markus Fischer
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:21:48PM +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote : Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Andi Gutmans
At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Are you aware how complex

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Andi Gutmans wrote: Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? Probably not. But I know that Derick et al. are doing a good job adding Application Server-like functionality to the PHP Platform with SRM. -- Sebastian Bergmann

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread mlwmohawk
Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Björn Schotte
* Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? As Sebastian mentioned (sorry I couldn't reply earlier, we are currently moving PHP-Center/PHP-Conference to a new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Shane Caraveo
Markus Fischer wrote: On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:21:48PM +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote : Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 05:21 PM 6/2/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Seriously, Sebastian, if the only

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 09:13 PM 6/2/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Andi Gutmans wrote: Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? Probably not. But I know that Derick et al. are doing a good job adding Application Server-like functionality to the PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 09:23 PM 6/2/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? As Sebastian mentioned (sorry I couldn't reply earlier, we are currently moving PHP-Center/PHP-Conference to a new machine) things like Application

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: A multithreaded server running code is hardly what EJB is about. No, but when people use the words PHP and Application Server in conjunction, they mean a server that provides persistence for PHP objects in the way SRM provides. SRM's Bananas have in my opinion the

RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Lukas Smith
- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:39 PM To: Björn Schotte Cc: Jani Taskinen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision At 09:23 PM 6/2/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: PHP can become stronger, but it will NEVER make a shift and become Java. I don't want it to become Java. I want PHP to stay as simple as possible for beginners, simpler if possible as Shane pointed out. Regarding this I think once the PEAR/PECL infrastructure is

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 12:13 AM 6/3/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: But, as I said before, I don't understand why simplicity should mean in its consequence that software designs you find these days in the Java World cannot be done with PHP. The essence (in one sentence) of what I would like to see:

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Stig S. Bakken
On Sun, 2002-06-02 at 23:13, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: PHP can become stronger, but it will NEVER make a shift and become Java. I don't want it to become Java. I want PHP to stay as simple as possible for beginners, simpler if possible as Shane pointed out.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread mlwmohawk
There are also a number of people for whom the above is not enough. They strive for the possibilities the Java platform offers, without being forced to develop in a closed-source environment. As I said before, I really like Java as a language, but don't want to use the Java

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread mlwmohawk
Stig S. Bakken Wrote: But that is what you'll never get with PHP. Just look at how fast creating objects is in Java. Java revolves aroun on objects, they are created and destructed implicitly during execution of overloaded operators and everything. PHP has a _much_ higher cost for

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread mlwmohawk
Sebastian Bergmann Wrote: I love PHP, but I would like to design and implement my application the same way I could do with Java. I think this is the problem. PHP is not Java, so it follows you would probably need a different approach. When I code something in assembler,

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans,

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Jani Taskinen
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and WebServices Support, better SRM already exists... What it needs is people to really use it and report the bugs and missing features..and also some free time

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Andi Gutmans
At 03:36 AM 6/3/2002 +0300, Jani Taskinen wrote: On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... -Rasmus -- PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Björn Schotte wrote: Perhaps some more complexity to the language itself. I don't think adding new language keywords (like 'private' or 'delete' in Zend Engine 2) make the language more complex. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Jani Taskinen wrote: SRM already exists... What it needs is people to really use it and report the bugs and missing features..and also some free time for the people working on it. :) I'll have some time planned to spend on this soon. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Jani Taskinen wrote: Is something/someone preventing anyone from doing all this? Look at the discussion that followed the proposition of bundling libxml/libxslt with PHP. And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Stig S. Bakken wrote: PHP has a _much_ higher cost for using objects. This has design implications that rules out designing your PHP code as you would do for Java. Ah, here comes the beauty of SRM to play: I don't care about object creation costs, if I have to create my objects only

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: Ok, just wondering, can you explain why, for an average person, learning PHP takes an average of the time it takes to learn Java? Java has a much higher learning curve, because it more or less forces the programmer to use object orientation. Which, for medium to large

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-02 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, What's your problem with multi-dimensional arrays in PHP? -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a

[PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-01 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 07:12 PM 6/1/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Sebastian Bergmann wrote: I don't want to see changes (like those you mention later in your posting) in PHP to attract new users, but more to bind people that already use PHP, but are about to outgrow it. If you (and others) want PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-01 Thread Shane Caraveo
The PHP project does not exist to create the perfect incarnation of a computer language on the planet, for CS majors to drool over and utter 'Wow!' at. It exists as a quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. For

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-01 Thread Zeev Suraski
I agree with every word. Zeev At 12:25 AM 6/2/2002, Shane Caraveo wrote: I think PHP can be both powerful and easy to use, and I think I have an example of that in my own experience. I've got code I wrote on PHP 2 years ago, that has gone through a couple face lifts and modifications to

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)

2002-06-01 Thread Dan Kalowsky
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 07:12 PM 6/1/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? While I shouldn't speak for others, I can share my take on this. PHP's ease

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision

2002-06-01 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
Zeev Suraski wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? PHP has become as popular as it is today because it is easy to learn. It is very attractive for HTML programmers who want to mix their