[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
At 12:15 AM 9/11/2001 +0200, Alexander Wirtz wrote: Hi Jeroen, to give a little bit background, as a student of computersciences I happen to work with bitshift not as a means of having a quick multiplication or division, but as using it to manipulate bit-patterns. The distinction between signed and unsigned rightshift is nothing strange, obscure or redundant, but is implemented down to the machine-language itsself (dependent on cpu-architecture). So this is no bad operator, but one of the most crucial operators on bit-patterns. I don't want to sound arrogant (saying this is almost always a sure sign, that it will ;-) ) but maybe you should inform yourself the next time why other languages have this operator implemented. Disabling signed shifting will force me to turn back to perl, as I use this feature for quick hacking certain scripts I use at the University (and that would be a very cruel thing to do :o) ) - besides, it would disregard the holy BC... In what case (when not dividing) do you use this kind of shift? Andi Cheers flames on (constructive comments are welcome), Alexander -- | Alexander Wirtz | eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | web@ctive GmbH| Accidents, Emergency, Ambulance| -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
+1 for -- Phil Driscoll -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
Good Idea Is there anyone out there who uses on negative numbers? There is the discussion on the engine2 list about whether to make an unsigned right shift, or to introduce a new operator . Speak-up or potential loose your negative shift-ability : ) -Jason - Original Message - From: Andrei Zmievski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andi Gutmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jason T. Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jason Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator On Fri, 07 Sep 2001, Andi Gutmans wrote: I guess the reason for this is because some people in C use 1 to divide by 2. I don't think this has had its uses in PHP and I think we should change it to do an unsigned shift. Maybe you should ask on the php-dev list first.. if anyone uses it for division. -Andrei In this age, which believes that there is a short cut to everything, the greatest lesson to be learned is that the most difficult way is, in the long run, the easiest. -Henry Miller, The Books in My Life -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jason et al., On Monday 10 September 2001 16:24, Jason Greene wrote: Is there anyone out there who uses on negative numbers? There is the discussion on the engine2 list about whether to make an unsigned right shift, or to introduce a new operator . I'd be grateful, if the behaviour of won't change, as I'm using it in some scripts for exactly this purpose. A is the usual unsigned right-shift in c-style languages, it wouldn't hurt to introduce it to PHP as well, would it? Speak-up or potential loose your negative shift-ability Done :) Best Regards, Alex - -- | Alexander Wirtz | eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | web@ctive GmbH|Accidents, Emergency, Ambulance | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7nNSEDTqTaMH1weIRAhdBAKCbojb6+0yw1alYGS1tQgydLAcfEQCg24wE ssB1EoyRTzQY2R1jQhAcJDw= =zebw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
Alexander, Thanks for the input. If you are interested in other language changes subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Everyone, Well guys we have one person so far who spoke up, and you know what they say for every one there is a hundred : ) Due to the existing users out there I would think the new operator is the way to go. -Jason - Original Message - From: Alexander Wirtz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jason Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andrei Zmievski [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andi Gutmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: [Zend Engine 2] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jason et al., On Monday 10 September 2001 16:24, Jason Greene wrote: Is there anyone out there who uses on negative numbers? There is the discussion on the engine2 list about whether to make an unsigned right shift, or to introduce a new operator . I'd be grateful, if the behaviour of won't change, as I'm using it in some scripts for exactly this purpose. A is the usual unsigned right-shift in c-style languages, it wouldn't hurt to introduce it to PHP as well, would it? Speak-up or potential loose your negative shift-ability Done :) Best Regards, Alex - -- | Alexander Wirtz | eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | web@ctive GmbH|Accidents, Emergency, Ambulance | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7nNSEDTqTaMH1weIRAhdBAKCbojb6+0yw1alYGS1tQgydLAcfEQCg24wE ssB1EoyRTzQY2R1jQhAcJDw= =zebw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
Is there anyone out there who uses on negative numbers? There is the discussion on the engine2 list about whether to make an unsigned right shift, or to introduce a new operator . In my opinion, and should consider integers as a row of bits, thus do not treat the msb differently... I believe you call it shifting unsigned longs? You shouldn't use and for arithmetic, no 'quick' division by 2 etc... --Jeroen -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
FWIW: Signed shift seems to make little sense to me personally, since we are just dealing with a row of bits, and if you really want to do a quick multiplication/division, you might just as well use a * or / operator - it is not going to hurt that much:). *However*, it's been possible in different languages since before I had my first computer (e.g. SHL/SHR and SAL/SAR in asm x86), so we might provide the same functionality and create a new operator to discriminate between signed and unsigned shifts.Just a thought. Don't kill me if that would be polluting the language. Vlad Alexander Wirtz wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jason et al., On Monday 10 September 2001 16:24, Jason Greene wrote: Is there anyone out there who uses on negative numbers? There is the discussion on the engine2 list about whether to make an unsigned right shift, or to introduce a new operator . I'd be grateful, if the behaviour of won't change, as I'm using it in some scripts for exactly this purpose. A is the usual unsigned right-shift in c-style languages, it wouldn't hurt to introduce it to PHP as well, would it? Speak-up or potential loose your negative shift-ability Done :) Best Regards, Alex - -- | Alexander Wirtz | eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | web@ctive GmbH|Accidents, Emergency, Ambulance | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7nNSEDTqTaMH1weIRAhdBAKCbojb6+0yw1alYGS1tQgydLAcfEQCg24wE ssB1EoyRTzQY2R1jQhAcJDw= =zebw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
FWIW: Signed shift seems to make little sense to me personally, since we are just dealing with a row of bits, and if you really want to do a quick multiplication/division, you might just as well use a * or / operator - it is not going to hurt that much:). I completely agree *However*, it's been possible in different languages since before I had my first computer (e.g. SHL/SHR and SAL/SAR in asm x86), so we might provide the same functionality and create a new operator to discriminate between signed and unsigned shifts.Just a thought. Don't kill me if that would be polluting the language. IMHO: If other languages have strange things, I don't see why PHP should take it over... Don't copy bad operators! But... currently, how does PHP handle this? I'm afraid the wrong way? --Jeroen -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
Hi Jeroen, to give a little bit background, as a student of computersciences I happen to work with bitshift not as a means of having a quick multiplication or division, but as using it to manipulate bit-patterns. The distinction between signed and unsigned rightshift is nothing strange, obscure or redundant, but is implemented down to the machine-language itsself (dependent on cpu-architecture). So this is no bad operator, but one of the most crucial operators on bit-patterns. I don't want to sound arrogant (saying this is almost always a sure sign, that it will ;-) ) but maybe you should inform yourself the next time why other languages have this operator implemented. Disabling signed shifting will force me to turn back to perl, as I use this feature for quick hacking certain scripts I use at the University (and that would be a very cruel thing to do :o) ) - besides, it would disregard the holy BC... Cheers flames on (constructive comments are welcome), Alexander -- | Alexander Wirtz | eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | web@ctive GmbH| Accidents, Emergency, Ambulance| -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: Re: [Zend Engine 2] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator
From: Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2001/09/10 Mon PM 01:58:03 CDT To: Vlad Krupin [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alexander Wirtz [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Jason Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andrei Zmievski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andi Gutmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zend Engine 2] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [Zend Engine 2] Right/Left Shift Zero Fill operator FWIW: Signed shift seems to make little sense to me personally, since we are just dealing with a row of bits, and if you really want to do a quick multiplication/division, you might just as well use a * or / operator - it is not going to hurt that much:). I completely agree Which is faster, adding a number several hundred times or shifting a few bits? (no need to answer just making a point) *However*, it's been possible in different languages since before I had my first computer (e.g. SHL/SHR and SAL/SAR in asm x86), so we might provide the same functionality and create a new operator to discriminate between signed and unsigned shifts.Just a thought. Don't kill me if that would be polluting the language. IMHO: If other languages have strange things, I don't see why PHP should take it over... Don't copy bad operators! But... currently, how does PHP handle this? I'm afraid the wrong way? --Jeroen Yep the signed way. PHP just calls C's , which shifts according to the datatype. If the datatype is signed (which in php it is) it performs a signed shift, if it is unsigned it performs an unsigned shift. The problem lies in the fact that a loosely typed language has no concept of sign/unsigned types. Java got around this by creating a new operator for unsigned shifting . I personally have never had a need to shift signed values, but someone has spoken up that does, and as such I believe we should leave compatibility with this. It looks like we have no choice but to follow java on this one. Does anyone disagree? -Jason -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
