Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf
 I would like to know in advance when PHP 5 will be released.

So would we.  We have no idea.  Sometime in the next 4-18 months.  How's 
that?

 Can I find a sort of roadmap somewhere? 

We are well past the roadmap and into the TODO stage now.  Our trusted 
secretary, Sebastian, has been maintaining it:

http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/TODO-PHP5.txt

 Where should I look at regularly to know if it is going
 to be released soon?

This list is fine.

 Can somebody tell me approximately when it will happen? 3 months? Year?

Nope, and if someone does tell you it is pure speculation and you can add 
or subtract 6 months to/from the answer you get.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 12:41 23/01/2003, Piotr Sobolewski wrote:

Can somebody tell me approximately when it will happen? 3 months? Year?


If everything works properly, it should be out before the end of the year, 
hopefully around Q3.
We'll start to release betas in the very near future (weeks), so you'd be 
able to play with it even before it goes golden.

Zeev


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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread John Coggeshall

I am working on some reader-friendly docs to answer this question, but
for now you can read the ZEND_CHANGES file in the PHP CVS

John


-Original Message-
From: Piotr Sobolewski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?


Hi,

I would like to know in advance when PHP 5 will be released.

Can I find a sort of roadmap somewhere? 

Where should I look at regularly to know if it is going
to be released soon?

Can somebody tell me approximately when it will happen? 3 months? Year?

-- 
Piotr Sobolewski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread John Coggeshall
The reason I ask is that Shane Caraveo and I were working on the thread
saftey issue, but we couldn't talk about it because we weren't invited
to the PHP5-DEV list


-Original Message-
From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:51 AM
To: Piotr Sobolewski
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?


 I would like to know in advance when PHP 5 will be released.

So would we.  We have no idea.  Sometime in the next 4-18 
months.  How's 
that?

 Can I find a sort of roadmap somewhere?

We are well past the roadmap and into the TODO stage now.  Our trusted 
secretary, Sebastian, has been maintaining it:

http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/TODO-PHP5.txt

 Where should I look at regularly to know if it is going
 to be released soon?

This list is fine.

 Can somebody tell me approximately when it will happen? 3 months? 
 Year?

Nope, and if someone does tell you it is pure speculation and 
you can add 
or subtract 6 months to/from the answer you get.

-Rasmus


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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, John Coggeshall wrote:

 The reason I ask is that Shane Caraveo and I were working on the thread
 saftey issue, but we couldn't talk about it because we weren't invited
 to the PHP5-DEV list

I had nothing to do with that limited php5 list.  I thought that was
completely bogus myself and argued against it.

-Rasmus


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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Zeev Suraski
Rasmus,

The whole point of the list was to avoid threads like this letter is going 
to spawn.  Let's stop it here, please.

John - if you feel you belong in php5-dev(*) and want to actively 
participate in the discussions, we'll add you.  The point of php5-dev was 
to create a working group for getting PHP 5 out the door in the near 
future, so we can avoid the 'anywhere in the next two years' time 
frame.  So far, it's working fairly well.

Zeev

(*) I'm pretty sure it's obvious but I'll state it explicitly still - being 
on php5-dev is not a matter of prestige and not being on it doesn't mean a 
thing.  Being on it means that you'd be actively developing parts of PHP 
5.  We wanted to come up with the smallest group of people that will be 
able to be productive, without stalling into endless discussions that can 
never be resolved.  For that reason, we'd be selective on who we add into 
the list to keep it small, and open it up once we gain enough momentum.

At 18:38 23/01/2003, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, John Coggeshall wrote:

 The reason I ask is that Shane Caraveo and I were working on the thread
 saftey issue, but we couldn't talk about it because we weren't invited
 to the PHP5-DEV list

I had nothing to do with that limited php5 list.  I thought that was
completely bogus myself and argued against it.

-Rasmus


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Dan Kalowsky
Then discontinue it.  End of discussion.

This is an open source project, and I see little to no-advantage to 
it's use outside of creating a rather vile aftertaste in the mouths of 
those developers who are not invited.

I've heard the arguments for the list, and I can only say they are 
valid reasons.  But you're now making PHP a political project rather 
than a software project.  Thanks.  This is the sort of thing I don't 
want to have to deal with in my personal time.  If you want a private 
list, take PHP out of the Open Source.  If you want to cut down on the 
signal/noise ratio then moderate the list, but don't make it private 
and invite only.

Zeev no matter how you see it or say it, the inclusion of members into 
a private mailing list is an exclusive ranking.  You may claim 
otherwise, but all such claims by members of such group will more than 
likely be disregarded.



On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 11:38 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

I had nothing to do with that limited php5 list.  I thought that was
completely bogus myself and argued against it.


---
Dan KalowskyCause fear is strong and love's
http://www.deadmime.org/~dankfor everyone, who isn't me.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  - Burden In My Hand,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Soundgarden


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Zeev Suraski
Ok, I can't be bothered to fight a mailing list that was supposed to trim 
down endless discussions. I'm not the one that asked for the list, but I 
definitely supported it, as unlike most of the members on this list, I 
remember the pre-v4 days, and what kind of mountains we had to push in 
order to get it released half a year after it was ready.  But as you said, 
no matter what valid reasons there are for having this list, we got to a 
situation where the fuzzy feeling will always outweigh the logic, and 
nobody will ever be able to persuade anybody otherwise.  Whatever, let's 
end the list.

Piotr - we'll call back mid 2005!

Zeev

At 19:31 23/01/2003, Dan Kalowsky wrote:
Then discontinue it.  End of discussion.

This is an open source project, and I see little to no-advantage to it's 
use outside of creating a rather vile aftertaste in the mouths of those 
developers who are not invited.

I've heard the arguments for the list, and I can only say they are valid 
reasons.  But you're now making PHP a political project rather than a 
software project.  Thanks.  This is the sort of thing I don't want to have 
to deal with in my personal time.  If you want a private list, take PHP 
out of the Open Source.  If you want to cut down on the signal/noise ratio 
then moderate the list, but don't make it private and invite only.

Zeev no matter how you see it or say it, the inclusion of members into a 
private mailing list is an exclusive ranking.  You may claim otherwise, 
but all such claims by members of such group will more than likely be 
disregarded.



On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 11:38 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

I had nothing to do with that limited php5 list.  I thought that was
completely bogus myself and argued against it.

---
Dan KalowskyCause fear is strong and love's
http://www.deadmime.org/~dank   for everyone, who isn't me.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  - Burden In My Hand,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Soundgarden


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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread James Cox
 -Original Message-
 From: Dan Kalowsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 I've heard the arguments for the list, and I can only say they are
 valid reasons.  But you're now making PHP a political project rather
 than a software project.  Thanks.  This is the sort of thing I don't
 want to have to deal with in my personal time.  If you want a private
 list, take PHP out of the Open Source.  If you want to cut down on the
 signal/noise ratio then moderate the list, but don't make it private
 and invite only.

+1. As much as this list is a good thing for advancing development in a sane
way, it creates too many political debates. It causes elitism. In a project
like the ASF, where elitism is almost acceptable, this list would be fine,
however for the PHP project where the emphasis is on community, and allowing
people to get involved, this kind of list just adds bad feelings.

I do not have time or expertise to make PHP5 a reality in the way that Zeev,
Rasmus, Derick or any of the other people on the list do -- i readily admit
that; but I most certainly am interested in the ways that you are taking
PHP5, and if something detrimental was to crop up, (eg, disabling
register_globals entirely, which has been mentioned more than once for PHP5)
, then I would like to be able to add reasoned argument against.

Open up the list so that people can read it, and moderate posts, as you are
continuing too, Andrei.

 -- james


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Maxim Maletsky

I tend to agree about the fact that in Open Source people often spend
more time on politics rather than developing.

Imagine a company office where the programmers get paid per hour while
spending tons of time at the round table of a meeting room throwing into
each other what they like better and why.  In open source this happens a
lot.

But, at the same time, I think that closing a developers list does not
really solve this issue. What about let the developers subscribe to the
list in read-only mode so we all get updated on what's going on with
PHP5. Or simply open the list completely and ignore the messages from
those who you don't consider active PHP5 contributors. That would
probably be more correct.

--
Maxim Maletsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote... :

 Ok, I can't be bothered to fight a mailing list that was supposed to trim 
 down endless discussions. I'm not the one that asked for the list, but I 
 definitely supported it, as unlike most of the members on this list, I 
 remember the pre-v4 days, and what kind of mountains we had to push in 
 order to get it released half a year after it was ready.  But as you said, 
 no matter what valid reasons there are for having this list, we got to a 
 situation where the fuzzy feeling will always outweigh the logic, and 
 nobody will ever be able to persuade anybody otherwise.  Whatever, let's 
 end the list.
 
 Piotr - we'll call back mid 2005!
 
 Zeev
 
 At 19:31 23/01/2003, Dan Kalowsky wrote:
 Then discontinue it.  End of discussion.
 
 This is an open source project, and I see little to no-advantage to it's 
 use outside of creating a rather vile aftertaste in the mouths of those 
 developers who are not invited.
 
 I've heard the arguments for the list, and I can only say they are valid 
 reasons.  But you're now making PHP a political project rather than a 
 software project.  Thanks.  This is the sort of thing I don't want to have 
 to deal with in my personal time.  If you want a private list, take PHP 
 out of the Open Source.  If you want to cut down on the signal/noise ratio 
 then moderate the list, but don't make it private and invite only.
 
 Zeev no matter how you see it or say it, the inclusion of members into a 
 private mailing list is an exclusive ranking.  You may claim otherwise, 
 but all such claims by members of such group will more than likely be 
 disregarded.
 
 
 
 On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 11:38 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
 
 I had nothing to do with that limited php5 list.  I thought that was
 completely bogus myself and argued against it.
  ---
 Dan KalowskyCause fear is strong and love's
 http://www.deadmime.org/~dank   for everyone, who isn't me.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  - Burden In My Hand,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Soundgarden
 
 
 --
 PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/
 To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
 


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Brian Moon
| Imagine a company office where the programmers get paid per hour while
| spending tons of time at the round table of a meeting room throwing into
| each other what they like better and why.  In open source this happens a
| lot.

hey, who let you in to the dealnews dev room?

Brian.
dealnews.com


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Maxim Maletsky

this email:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Brian Moon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote... :

 | Imagine a company office where the programmers get paid per hour while
 | spending tons of time at the round table of a meeting room throwing into
 | each other what they like better and why.  In open source this happens a
 | lot.
 
 hey, who let you in to the dealnews dev room?
 
 Brian.
 dealnews.com
 


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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Rasmus Lerdorf
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Zeev Suraski wrote:
 Ok, I can't be bothered to fight a mailing list that was supposed to trim 
 down endless discussions. I'm not the one that asked for the list, but I 
 definitely supported it, as unlike most of the members on this list, I 
 remember the pre-v4 days, and what kind of mountains we had to push in 
 order to get it released half a year after it was ready.  But as you said, 
 no matter what valid reasons there are for having this list, we got to a 
 situation where the fuzzy feeling will always outweigh the logic, and 
 nobody will ever be able to persuade anybody otherwise.  Whatever, let's 
 end the list.

You should have learned this by now.  Perception and warm fuzzies is an 
extremely important part of a large open source project that relies 
heavily on a large number of volunteers.  Messing with that is playing 
with fire.  I believe we can get work done on php-dev, especially if 
people can hold back on replying to trolls.

-Rasmus


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RE: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Mike Robinson
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

 Perception and warm fuzzies is an extremely important part of
 a large open source project that relies heavily on a large
 number of volunteers.  Messing with that is playing with fire.

You've hit it bang on.

[noise]
The clinical name for the 'fire' in this case is cycle of
alienation, and in any environment that relies on volunteers,
this 'cycle' is almost impossible to avoid. I've been amazed
over the 4+ years since I jumped onto the list how well this
group has been able to circumvent the problems that normally
plague projects of this size and scope. FWIW, the number one
cause of the cycle is information sharing amongst a smaller
subgroup formed from the main group, usually without their
knowledge. In most cases, the result is fatal. The few groups
I've seen actually emerge from an active cycle are irreparably
damaged.
[/noise]

Regards
Mike Robinson




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Re: [PHP-DEV] roadmap of PHP - where? PHP 5 - when?

2003-01-23 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 00:08 24/01/2003, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

You should have learned this by now.  Perception and warm fuzzies is an
extremely important part of a large open source project that relies
heavily on a large number of volunteers.  Messing with that is playing
with fire.  I believe we can get work done on php-dev, especially if
people can hold back on replying to trolls.


Please don't preach to me, thank you.

As Andi said, it's very nice to be the nice guy, and volunteer to sort the 
noise from the real content, when others are the ones who have to do the 
work.  Volunteering others is always easy.

I did not say nuke php-dev.  I said we need php5-dev, and we need it quiet 
and productive right now.  But as you realized by now, your posts did a 
good job at alienating the very same users that you were supposedly 
helping.  It wasn't even an issue until you made it one.

Zeev (literally feeling the wings of history as a certain someone admitted 
a mistake for the first time since 1997!)


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