Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
Frank Joerdens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (the context is Microsoft using other OSs) > Do you know for a fact that they do? If so, how? That'd be a very cool > tidbit of information to share . . . See also: http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch/ A good document to hit clients/funders/bosses over the head with if they insist you use NT/IIS (yuk!) [makes sign of the cross and exits, stage left] -- ** Marx: "Why do Anarchists only drink herbal tea?" Proudhon: "Because all proper tea is theft." ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > > reason -- their stuff works less good). > > Do you know for a fact that they do? If so, how? That'd be a very cool > tidbit of information to share . . . Yep it is (was) true. We used to laugh about it at work. (We were in the middle of a big Unix vs. NT debate). They used solaris on their web servers early on. (Probably because a) The Intel "server class" machine market was relatively immature at that point and b) Prior to NT4 SP3, NT had no chance of holding up under any sort of load). They are all Win2k now last time I checked. Hotmail did use FreeBSD as I recall. This was an external company that Microsoft acquired and they made the decision not to completely rewrite it when they acquired it (although considering how completely clueless Hotmail was about web security they probably should've done it). There are (or used to be) some number of publically available Linux boxes in the microsoft.com domain. (Mostly in their research labs.) You should be able to do a web or deja search and find info on them if you are really interested. -Brian -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> > > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > > > reason -- their stuff works less good). Www.microsoft.com used to be served off of Solaris (where else could you run a high performance installation of Oracle? ;). Hotmail was (is) FreeBSD. Anyone would be stupid to not be using linux in their interprise somewhere. Jeremy Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Frank Joerdens) wrote: > > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D > > > > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > > reason -- their stuff works less good). > > Do you know for a fact that they do? If so, how? That'd be a very cool > tidbit of information to share . . . In the Macromedia Dreamweaver newsgroup, there's always someone spotting some more pages from the microsoft.com site which were written in DW instead of FrontPage or InterDev. Not quite the same factoid as you were seeking, but it does show that not everything with a shiny M$ logo on it is necessarily built with M$ products. -- CC -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
Egan wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:45:01 -0500, "Romulo Roberto Pereira" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Copyright? This do not exist!!! See the case of NAPSTER > > The law is one thing. Whether people obey it or not, is another. > If we expect people to honor our various open source licenses, we should likewise honor other's copyrights, NDAs, agreements, etc... -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "Casanova will have many weapons; To beat him you will have to have more than forks and flatulence." -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question... (c) on ideas - OT rant
> You cannot copyright ideas, and the PHP language is only an idea. I beg to disagree. The copyrighting or patenting of software is currently a topic, at least in the European Union. In the gene world it is general (mis)practise to patent medical plants which have been used for ages in other countries (Peruvian wonderflower, Indian Neem tree) and often they even get away with it (AKA 'Biopiracy'). Also many companies are patenting gene sequences which is a DISCOVERY not an INVENTION. That's huge now. Some company copyrighted some gene while assuming that MAYBE it MIGHT be useful for infections, cancer and they named 23 other diseases but forgot HIV. Eventually it turns out to be interesting concerning HIV and they now also want to (financially and legally) CONTROL HIV research. Patenting an invention is officially impossible in most countries but they get away with it. Sorry I know its OT but this remark hit a very sensitive spot. Bloody Monsanto, Aventis, Syngenta's. If you don't know them: they're like the microsoft in agriculture, where better solutions are not getting enough attention and chances because of the big ones having less scrupules and more PR and lobby. Chris -- C.Hayes Droevendaal 35 6708 PB Wageningen the Netherlands -- -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:02:06PM -0800, jeremy brand wrote: > > Soo true. > > > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D > > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > reason -- their stuff works less good). Do you know for a fact that they do? If so, how? That'd be a very cool tidbit of information to share . . . Cheers, Frank -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
At 02:50 AM 1/18/2001 -0500, Egan wrote: >On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:45:01 -0500, "Romulo Roberto Pereira" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Copyright? This do not exist!!! See the case of NAPSTER > >The law is one thing. Whether people obey it or not, is another. I agree. I would also say that the law is one thing, and common sense is another. .. Les Neste Cellphone 678-778-0382 Web http://www.lesneste.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:45:01 -0500, "Romulo Roberto Pereira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Copyright? This do not exist!!! See the case of NAPSTER The law is one thing. Whether people obey it or not, is another. Egan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
Copyright? This do not exist!!! See the case of NAPSTER... This drive me nuts! Rom - Original Message - From: Egan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Les Neste <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 2:38 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:56:18 -0500, Les Neste <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >What Egan wrote is very true. I speak with some knowledge -- having >weathered a copyright violation suit based on the action of one of my >employees -- and if you write it (as anything other than an employee) then >you own it, 'it' being the source code and the program compiled from that >source code. > >Egan, you mentioned something new to me: that you as author own it except >for 'that one client who paid for it'. Can you offer some citation to back >this up? It's no different from buying a book at the bookstore. The one copy you pay for is yours to use. However, that doesn't mean you also have the right to take it down to a friendly neighborhood printer and have them print up a few dozen extra copies for you. It's mostly common sense. The client does not get "copyrights" to make additional copies, but that does not prevent them from using the one copy they did pay for. Just like a book bought at the bookstore. Any copyright attorney should tell you the same thing, I expect. Egan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:56:18 -0500, Les Neste <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >What Egan wrote is very true. I speak with some knowledge -- having >weathered a copyright violation suit based on the action of one of my >employees -- and if you write it (as anything other than an employee) then >you own it, 'it' being the source code and the program compiled from that >source code. > >Egan, you mentioned something new to me: that you as author own it except >for 'that one client who paid for it'. Can you offer some citation to back >this up? It's no different from buying a book at the bookstore. The one copy you pay for is yours to use. However, that doesn't mean you also have the right to take it down to a friendly neighborhood printer and have them print up a few dozen extra copies for you. It's mostly common sense. The client does not get "copyrights" to make additional copies, but that does not prevent them from using the one copy they did pay for. Just like a book bought at the bookstore. Any copyright attorney should tell you the same thing, I expect. Egan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
Ok, The ethical question has been pounded to death... So Ill address the issue of the demo if you want a true demo, place a public copy on your own site. Allow the potential users to come in and mess with it. If it is truly good, you'll generate sales just from that... and until the Zend compiler comes out you wont have a way to safely distribute the code hack proof (Read: less hackable =:) ) -Original Message- From: Shane McBride [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 9:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... Wow, I caused quite a debate. And I thought I would get slammed :) BTW - PHP / Apache is going to be up to the client at this point. :) - Shane - Original Message - From: "Maxim Maletsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'jeremy brand'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Kath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "'Rasmus Lerdorf'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Shane McBride" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 10:03 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Ethics question... > hey, hey ... I wrote "Microsoft" just to tell you how _big_ a customer could > be... > a simple comparison... no politics here ... :-)) > > Cheers, > Maxim Maletsky > > > > -Original Message- > From: jeremy brand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:02 PM > To: Kath > Cc: Maxim Maletsky; 'Rasmus Lerdorf'; Shane McBride; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... > > > > Soo true. > > > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D > > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > reason -- their stuff works less good). > > :) > > Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more > Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
What Egan wrote is very true. I speak with some knowledge -- having weathered a copyright violation suit based on the action of one of my employees -- and if you write it (as anything other than an employee) then you own it, 'it' being the source code and the program compiled from that source code. Egan, you mentioned something new to me: that you as author own it except for 'that one client who paid for it'. Can you offer some citation to back this up? At 11:06 PM 1/17/2001 -0500, Egan wrote: >On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:59:41 -0600, "Scott Gerhardt" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>If your client paid you to develop the E-Commerce system they would >>typically own all rights to it unless otherwise agreed upon. > >I don't know what country you are speaking of, but in the U.S., that >view is a commonly held misconception. > >Under U.S. copyright law, if the author is an independent contractor, >in the absence of a written agreement covering the work, the author >owns all copyrights to the work, with the exception that the client >who paid for the work is automatically granted a license to their one >copy (and only their one copy). The client does *not* have copy >_rights_ which permit them to resell it, or even give it away, unless >the author specifically gave them those rights in writing, such as a >work for hire agreement. > >If the author was working as an employee, OTOH, then the situation is >reversed, and the employer owns the copyrights by default. > >As for the license of PHP itself, vs. an author's license to any code >he writes in the language known as PHP: > >Writing application code in the PHP language does not make the code >you wrote automatically become open source, Yes, the PHP processor is >open source, but its copyright is entirely separate and distinct from >any application system which may be written in the PHP language. > >I if write a C program, it does not matter whether I compile it with >GCC which is GPLed, or with some proprietary C compiler. Either one >is irrelevant for determining ownership of the copyrights which apply >to the code I wrote in the C language. > >You cannot copyright ideas, and the PHP language is only an idea. > >The PHP Apache module or other PHP processor is an *expression* of >ideas embodied in the PHP language. And only its expression can be >copyrighted, not the idea itself. > >Suppose RWS said you have to stop writing proprietary C programs, just >because someone might compile it with GCC? > >I hope you would laugh. :-) > > >Egan > > > >-- >PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > .. Les Neste Cellphone 678-778-0382 Web http://www.lesneste.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
At 21:24 17/01/01 -0500, Shane McBride wrote: >I have spent a lot of time working on a specific E-Commerce >(shopping-cart) to fill a need for a customer. Now that the project is >complete, I would like to market the product, which is entirely PHP and MySQL. > >My question is: Is it ethical to sell a product ( at a relatively >low-cost) written in PHP, especially since this group made it possible? I guess that this is something that would be an issue for many people using mailing lists and/or newsgroups for help, and for all languages - not just PHP. I think that so long as you don't try and mislead the guys who'll potentially be helping you, for example by saying that it's a personal project, or for school, or for a charity site etc. then there aren't really any ethical problems with it - people who help don't do so out of any expectation of a material reward, just out of a desire to make life easier for others who are less experienced or are encountering problems. Sure, I'd be annoyed if I helped someone write 90% of his code and he then sold it, but when you're talking about people answering a few short questions in a forum like this, there's got to be an expectation on everyone's part that they're probably helping you with a commercial project. Of course I have no idea of your arrangement with this particular customer - I personally wouldn't bill a customer for the entire development of a product and then sell it to the public, but then again I like to sleep at night :) >If that's ok to do, does anyone have any ideas how I can put a time limit >on a demo that isn't easily defeated? Other than using an encoder/compiler I can't see any way of implementing it into the software. I guess it depends on how you'll be distributing the code - if you're going to be sending it directly to clients, then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for you to check their sites to see if they've deployed it without buying a licence. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:59:41 -0600, "Scott Gerhardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >If your client paid you to develop the E-Commerce system they would >typically own all rights to it unless otherwise agreed upon. I don't know what country you are speaking of, but in the U.S., that view is a commonly held misconception. Under U.S. copyright law, if the author is an independent contractor, in the absence of a written agreement covering the work, the author owns all copyrights to the work, with the exception that the client who paid for the work is automatically granted a license to their one copy (and only their one copy). The client does *not* have copy _rights_ which permit them to resell it, or even give it away, unless the author specifically gave them those rights in writing, such as a work for hire agreement. If the author was working as an employee, OTOH, then the situation is reversed, and the employer owns the copyrights by default. As for the license of PHP itself, vs. an author's license to any code he writes in the language known as PHP: Writing application code in the PHP language does not make the code you wrote automatically become open source, Yes, the PHP processor is open source, but its copyright is entirely separate and distinct from any application system which may be written in the PHP language. I if write a C program, it does not matter whether I compile it with GCC which is GPLed, or with some proprietary C compiler. Either one is irrelevant for determining ownership of the copyrights which apply to the code I wrote in the C language. You cannot copyright ideas, and the PHP language is only an idea. The PHP Apache module or other PHP processor is an *expression* of ideas embodied in the PHP language. And only its expression can be copyrighted, not the idea itself. Suppose RWS said you have to stop writing proprietary C programs, just because someone might compile it with GCC? I hope you would laugh. :-) Egan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
Wow, I caused quite a debate. And I thought I would get slammed :) BTW - PHP / Apache is going to be up to the client at this point. :) - Shane - Original Message - From: "Maxim Maletsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'jeremy brand'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Kath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "'Rasmus Lerdorf'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Shane McBride" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 10:03 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Ethics question... > hey, hey ... I wrote "Microsoft" just to tell you how _big_ a customer could > be... > a simple comparison... no politics here ... :-)) > > Cheers, > Maxim Maletsky > > > > -Original Message- > From: jeremy brand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:02 PM > To: Kath > Cc: Maxim Maletsky; 'Rasmus Lerdorf'; Shane McBride; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... > > > > Soo true. > > > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D > > Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same > reason -- their stuff works less good). > > :) > > Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more > Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
Well, I can agree with that too.. but something you will always have to give them, something like support/update of the software, allow them to do something they wouldn't like to do without the license etc... It is a VERY HARD thing writing a RIGHT license... we (maybe except you, Rasmus) are just more likely not good enough to write a good license, the one which will totally satisfy a customer and will encourage him to purchase it. my point is: licenses aren't codes - if you are a programmer you'll have some hard time writing it well. Cheers, Maxim Maletsky. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:09 PM To: Maxim Maletsky Cc: Shane McBride; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Ethics question... > a customer like Microsoft, Morgan-Stanley, Amazon.com.. yes, but a new > start-up that thinks: "when we'll grow we'll buy something cooler" will > crack your soft down (or will ignore your license) ... I've seen it > happening so many times... So what? They'll do that anyway unless you spend a significant amount of energy coming up with weird protection schemes. And even then they are likely to hack it. Add a sane license, forget about the people who hack it, chances are these will turn into sales eventually in some way anyway. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
hey, hey ... I wrote "Microsoft" just to tell you how _big_ a customer could be... a simple comparison... no politics here ... :-)) Cheers, Maxim Maletsky -Original Message- From: jeremy brand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:02 PM To: Kath Cc: Maxim Maletsky; 'Rasmus Lerdorf'; Shane McBride; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... > Soo true. > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same reason -- their stuff works less good). :) Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
> a customer like Microsoft, Morgan-Stanley, Amazon.com.. yes, but a new > start-up that thinks: "when we'll grow we'll buy something cooler" will > crack your soft down (or will ignore your license) ... I've seen it > happening so many times... So what? They'll do that anyway unless you spend a significant amount of energy coming up with weird protection schemes. And even then they are likely to hack it. Add a sane license, forget about the people who hack it, chances are these will turn into sales eventually in some way anyway. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> Soo true. > > But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D Why would Microsoft be using Solaris, or Linux even? (hint, the same reason -- their stuff works less good). :) Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
Shane, This is highly off-topic but interesting and important enough to answer. It really boils down to who owns the product (intellectual copyright) and what sort of agreement you have with your client (ownership, confidentiality etc.). If your client paid you to develop the E-Commerce system they would typically own all rights to it unless otherwise agreed upon. It wouldn't really be fair to your client if they invested time and $$$ to build the E-commerce system and you turn around and sell it to one of their "potential" competitors for a dime. The issue isn't necessarily your monetary gain but the fact that you may be undermining your clients competitive advantage, something they invested in. In other words, why should another client get it for less? My suggestion would be to talk to your client and come to some sort of agreement on copyright and restrictions (if, when, and how much you can sell it for). Who knows, your client may tell you to "run with it and make whatever $$$ you can" or they may say "that is exclusively ours and you can't sell anything remotely similar for 5 years without our permission". Be up front and honest with your clien. My background: I am registered Professional Geoscientist in Saskatchewan, Canada (similar to professional engineer), which means I am required to abide by certain ethics and rules of professional conduct, so I know little bit on the subject. This means that everything I do, as a professional, must be conducted in the best interests of the public and my clients. I must put these issues at the top of my list: - Safety and well being of the public is #1. - Diligent and responsible. - Fair and honest Hope this clears things up a bit ___ Scott A. Gerhardt P.Geo. Gerhardt Information Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ > -Original Message- > From: Shane McBride [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: January 17, 2001 8:24 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [PHP] Ethics question... > > > I have spent a lot of time working on a specific E-Commerce > (shopping-cart) to fill a need for a customer. Now that the > project is complete, I would like to market the product, which is > entirely PHP and MySQL. > > My question is: Is it ethical to sell a product ( at a relatively > low-cost) written in PHP, especially since this group made it possible? > > If that's ok to do, does anyone have any ideas how I can put a > time limit on a demo that isn't easily defeated? > > > TIA, > Shane > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> a customer like Microsoft, Morgan-Stanley, Amazon.com.. yes, but a new > start-up that thinks: "when we'll grow we'll buy something cooler" will > crack your soft down (or will ignore your license) ... I've seen it > happening so many times... > Soo true. But why would Microsoft be using PHP? =D - Kath -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> > There are no restrictions on that. In fact the license on PHP is > > explicitly not the GPL for this very purpose. > > How does the license of PHP have anything to do whith the code that > Shane has written (unless he is distributing his software with PHP, > much as like an embeded system)? I have no idea whether he is distributing PHP along with it or not. The simple point I was making is that he can. He can put Apache and PHP on a CD along with his code and give it to a customer as a nice integrated bundle without license hassles. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Ethics question...
a customer like Microsoft, Morgan-Stanley, Amazon.com.. yes, but a new start-up that thinks: "when we'll grow we'll buy something cooler" will crack your soft down (or will ignore your license) ... I've seen it happening so many times... Cheers, Maxim Maletsky -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 11:33 AM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Ethics question... There are no restrictions on that. In fact the license on PHP is explicitly not the GPL for this very purpose. As for restricting the demo. I would suggest restricting it via a license. Any serious customer is not going to violate a license in order to save a couple of hundred bucks. -Rasmus > My question is: Is it ethical to sell a product ( at a relatively > low-cost) written in PHP, especially since this group made it > possible? > > If that's ok to do, does anyone have any ideas how I can put a time > limit on a demo that isn't easily defeated? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
> There are no restrictions on that. In fact the license on PHP is > explicitly not the GPL for this very purpose. How does the license of PHP have anything to do whith the code that Shane has written (unless he is distributing his software with PHP, much as like an embeded system)? This hits back to a point that I raised that never got much attention from this list. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general&m=97803110406749&w=2 (emphasis on the last 4 paragraphs) Shane, you should license your code how you feel fit. However, since PHP isn't a compiled language (yet) you will have to find a license that fits your needs while keeping in mind that your code has no choice but to be opensource. I forsee (hope), eventually (as happened with C and Java) other companies and groups (other than php/zend) to have interperters and compilers for PHP as a language. I would love to see this happen. I would love for it to be legal to free distribute machine code that was originally written in a language of my choice (PHP) and not be bound to Zend's licensing agreement. C eventually became open. Even (to some extent) Java has become open because there are enough choices of virtual machines -- not just Sun's any more. I would love to see openness (other than in source -- but yet a restrictive license) in PHP. My main point that I'm trying to make is that PHP is wonderful language. It is an okay technology. I say okay because it is bound under a restrictive license completely controlled by a single party. I want to see the language grow and flourish and the interpreters be many and great. > As for restricting the demo. I would suggest restricting it via a > license. Any serious customer is not going to violate a license in order > to save a couple of hundred bucks. I agree. Jeremy Jeremy Brand :: Sr. Software Engineer :: 408-245-9058 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.JeremyBrand.com/Jeremy/Brand/Jeremy_Brand.html for more Get your own Free, Private email at http://www.smackdown.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.JEEP-FOR-SALE.com/ -- I need a buyer -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Ethics question...
There are no restrictions on that. In fact the license on PHP is explicitly not the GPL for this very purpose. As for restricting the demo. I would suggest restricting it via a license. Any serious customer is not going to violate a license in order to save a couple of hundred bucks. -Rasmus > My question is: Is it ethical to sell a product ( at a relatively > low-cost) written in PHP, especially since this group made it > possible? > > If that's ok to do, does anyone have any ideas how I can put a time > limit on a demo that isn't easily defeated? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
