On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 13:24 -0700, Tommy Pham wrote:
From: tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com
To: php-general@lists.php.net; a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk; Daevid Vincent
dae...@daevid.com
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 12:42:41 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment
So while we can debate computing considerations of today, tomorrow
those will be less important. That was the point I was making. Why
not focus on things that make significant difference and let the
insignificant fade into history.
I tendentiously focus on all things able to make, all
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:15:54 -0400, tedd.sperl...@gmail.com (tedd) wrote:
At 3:56 PM +0200 10/6/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
Does these behaves exactly?
for($i=0; $i10; ++$i)
for($i=0; $i10; $i++)
different benchmarks showed ++$i is usually faster than $i++
Faster is a relative term that
At 6:15 PM -0700 10/6/09, Daevid Vincent wrote:
Except that:
$a = 123;
$b = $a++;
echo $b; //gives 123, not 124
as you logically expect it to and common sense would dictate, regardless of
what KR or anyone else says.
That's not the way I look at it.
$b = $a++;
means to me take the
On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 08:54 -0400, tedd wrote:
At 6:15 PM -0700 10/6/09, Daevid Vincent wrote:
Except that:
$a = 123;
$b = $a++;
echo $b; //gives 123, not 124
as you logically expect it to and common sense would dictate, regardless of
what KR or anyone else says.
That's not the way
Speaking of.
[snip]
-Original Message-
From: Daevid Vincent [mailto:dae...@daevid.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 8:21 PM
To: Jay Blanchard; 'Tommy Pham'; php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs
++$foo
HEY! Don't try
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Andrea Giammarchi an_...@hotmail.com wrote:
So while we can debate computing considerations of today, tomorrow
those will be less important. That was the point I was making. Why
not focus on things that make significant difference and let the
insignificant
I can write a test[1] that comes out with these results:
String concat time: 0.18807196617126
String interpolation time: 0.14288902282715
Where using is faster than ' ! Common wisdom be damned!
where is the test? ... and, is that kind of test where you put 12345678
variables inside a
just yesterday i was reading through this wonderful and very funny
presentation:
http://talks.php.net/show/froscon08/0
for me it really drove home the message (among others) that it makes sense
to find out where the real gains can be made before investing your efforts
in optimization.
--
optimizations for you are a waste of time, I'll code like
that.
Have fun, I have wasted already too much time to taqlk about this silly stuff
...
Best Regards
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:36:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
From: f
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Tom Worster f...@thefsb.org wrote:
just yesterday i was reading through this wonderful and very funny
presentation:
http://talks.php.net/show/froscon08/0
for me it really drove home the message (among others) that it makes sense
to find out where the real
This is a great talk / slideshow and definitely is a better way to
drive home the point that PHP execution speed is relatively
meaningless in terms of user experience. Well, at least up to a
point...
if it takes 0.1 per response, with 10 users will be 1 second to wait ... if it
takes
[snip]
...flame...
[/snip]
Easy there hoss, no need to get worked up.
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Easy there hoss, no need to get worked up.
In my opinion, being blamed for natural optimizations is the most ridiculous,
hilarious, anti professional behavior I have ever seen ... but you are right,
no need to get worked up, so have fun here.
Regards
At 1:59 PM +0100 10/7/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 08:54 -0400, tedd wrote:
At 6:15 PM -0700 10/6/09, Daevid Vincent wrote:
Except that:
$a = 123;
$b = $a++;
echo $b; //gives 123, not 124
as you logically expect it to and common sense would dictate, regardless of
what KR
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:42 PM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote:
However, what I find wacky about all of this is:
for($i=1; $i=10; $i++)
{
echo($i);
}
and
for($i=1; $i=10; ++$i)
{
echo($i);
}
Do exactly the same thing. I would have expected the first to
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Andrew Ballard aball...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:42 PM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote:
However, what I find wacky about all of this is:
for($i=1; $i=10; $i++)
{
echo($i);
}
and
for($i=1; $i=10; ++$i)
{
echo($i);
From: tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com
To: php-general@lists.php.net; a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk; Daevid Vincent
dae...@daevid.com
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 12:42:41 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
At 1:59 PM +0100 10
From: Joost [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
Daevid Vincent wrote:
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
$a = $a++;
I just think this is an ambiguous line of code that wasn't thought
through. The presence of the postfix operator makes the result
undefined, no matter what
It will be an accident
if you get the results you are expecting.
I agree that the operation is illogical, I must disagree about accidents.
In PHP that operation will mean assign to the new $a variable the value
returned from the other $a variable before the increment.
There is no mystery
On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 08:51:17AM -0400, Bob McConnell wrote:
From: Joost [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
Daevid Vincent wrote:
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
$a = $a++;
I just think this is an ambiguous line of code that wasn't thought
through. The
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.comwrote:
On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 08:51:17AM -0400, Bob McConnell wrote:
From: Joost [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
Daevid Vincent wrote:
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
$a = $a++;
I
Does these behaves exactly?
for($i=0; $i10; ++$i)
for($i=0; $i10; $i++)
different benchmarks showed ++$i is usually faster than $i++
In that loop case, yes, what's happen internally is exactly the same, $i will
be from 0 to 9, in the other case obviously is not the same.
but pre increment
At 3:56 PM +0200 10/6/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
Does these behaves exactly?
for($i=0; $i10; ++$i)
for($i=0; $i10; $i++)
different benchmarks showed ++$i is usually faster than $i++
Faster is a relative term that is becoming more meaningless each year.
Considering that speed is
...@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
At 3:56 PM +0200 10/6/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
Does these behaves exactly?
for($i=0; $i10; ++$i)
for($i=0; $i10; $i++)
different benchmarks showed ++$i is usually faster than $i++
Faster
At 10:48 AM -0300 10/6/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
No matter how silly it can looks like (a = a++) it is still completely valid
code and it SHOULD run without problems.
Yeah, it's a valid as:
$a = $a;
and does the same thing, which is nothing.
If you want a statement that does something,
- Original Message
From: tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com
To: Martin Scotta martinsco...@gmail.com; Paul M Foster
pa...@quillandmouse.com
Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 11:08:14 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
At 11:11 AM -0700 10/6/09, Tommy Pham wrote:
I find it interesting for a discussion to go on this long for something as
$a = $a++;
which should have never happened in the first place ;)
Regards,
Tommy
Hey, we're programmers. We waste time for a living.
Cheers,
tedd
--
---
[snip]
I find it interesting for a discussion to go on this long for something
as
$a = $a++;
[/snip]
You think that is interesting? Start a conversation about these
{}
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 13:34 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote:
[snip]
I find it interesting for a discussion to go on this long for something
as
$a = $a++;
[/snip]
You think that is interesting? Start a conversation about these
{}
Now they actually make sense! I've used those as
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jay Blanchard jblanch...@pocket.com wrote:
[snip]
I find it interesting for a discussion to go on this long for something
as
$a = $a++;
[/snip]
You think that is interesting? Start a conversation about these
{}
--
PHP General Mailing List
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 14:46, Israel Ekpo israele...@gmail.com wrote:
Speaking of starting a conversation, what do you think about the goto
construct introduced just recently?
Better yet: what do you all think of folks hijacking threads?
--
/Daniel P. Brown
daniel.br...@parasane.net ||
Furthermore, the amount
of time micro-optimization takes up (going through old code, I mean)
could be better spent doing something that actually does increase your
performance, like implementing a search engine or memcached. Going
forward, if you're aware that ++i and i++ are the same for
ah ah ah that's for sure, I've never said that is correct, I said that is
illogical ;-)
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:46:36 -0500
From: jblanch...@pocket.com
To: an_...@hotmail.com; tedd.sperl...@gmail.com; php
Eddie:
And thanks for supporting my point.
so you think as well that 3 characters, written like this i++, in a careless
way, or like this ++i, make the difference about time spent to develop ...
interesting
Regards
Speaking of starting a conversation, what do you think about the goto
construct introduced just recently?
if used properly, could avoid recursion, and speed up operations ... there is
nothing wrong with goto, everything we write on lowest level is a jump in the
memory (as goto is a jump in
if used properly, could avoid recursion, and speed up operations ... there is
nothing wrong with goto, everything we write on lowest level is a jump in the
memory (as goto is a jump in the code flow)
++goto ... and not goto++
I forgot, I have always used goto in Batch script, which
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:08:14 -0400, tedd.sperl...@gmail.com (tedd) wrote:
At 10:48 AM -0300 10/6/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
No matter how silly it can looks like (a = a++) it is still completely valid
code and it SHOULD run without problems.
Yeah, it's a valid as:
$a = $a;
and does the same
At 1:09 AM +0200 10/7/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
Eddie:
And thanks for supporting my point.
so you think as well that 3 characters, written like this i++, in a
careless way, or like this ++i, make the difference about time spent
to develop ... interesting
No, just the opposite. It
At 10:20 AM +1100 10/7/09, clanc...@cybec.com.au wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:08:14 -0400, tedd.sperl...@gmail.com (tedd) wrote:
At 10:48 AM -0300 10/6/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
No matter how silly it can looks like (a = a++) it is still completely valid
code and it SHOULD run without
-Original Message-
From: Paul M Foster [mailto:pa...@quillandmouse.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 6:28 AM
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with
$foo++ vs ++$foo
On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 08:51:17AM -0400, Bob McConnell
HEY! Don't try to hijack my astonishingly long-running thread! Start your
own Jay. ;-}
-Original Message-
From: Jay Blanchard [mailto:jblanch...@pocket.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:34 AM
To: Tommy Pham; php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: RE: [PHP] Whacky increment
Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
if used properly, could avoid recursion, and speed up operations ... there is
nothing wrong with goto, everything we write on lowest level is a jump in the
memory (as goto is a jump in the code flow)
++goto ... and not goto++
I forgot, I have always used goto in
Ben,
might be intersting to consider that in ur c axample u r working with a pure
memory position, while php works with references. thry it with pointers it
I'm pretty shure u get the same result as in PHP.
I'm not shure, because I don't work in perl, but doesn't per work on
references as well ?
At 2:01 PM -0700 10/2/09, Daevid Vincent wrote:
Why would you EVER want $num = $num++; to give you back the value you
already had? Even if we did $foo = $bar++; I would still logically (and
common sensely) expect $foo to be the increment of $bar!
You are right -- one should never structure a
At 5:12 PM -0400 10/2/09, Robert Cummings wrote:
Daevid Vincent wrote:
?PHP
$num = 123;
$num = $num++;
print $num; //this prints 123 and not 124 ?!!
$num = 123;
$num = ++$num;
print $num; //this prints 124 as expected
$num = 123;
$num++;
print $num; //this prints 124 as expected
$num =
At 2:28 PM -0700 10/2/09, Daevid Vincent wrote:
My problem isn't with $foo++ vs ++$foo per say. I use pre/post all the time.
My issue is that I see no reason to do the ASSIGNMENT FIRST and THEN
INCREMENT.
I see your point exactly.
The problem is with the statement of:
$num = $num++;
That
At 2:53 PM -0700 10/2/09, Ben Dunlap wrote:
$a = 2;
$a = $a++;
echo $a;
Honestly I think the only reason anyone would write an expression like
that is either to fake out the compiler or because they don't properly
understand the use of a unary operator. Or rather, of the
At 5:42 PM -0400 10/2/09, Daniel Brown wrote:
If you were to use $num++, it would echo out the current number,
THEN increment the value. In this example, it increments the value,
THEN echoes it out. The placement of the signs (plus or minus) is the
giveaway: if it's before the variable,
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 10:49, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote:
That's absolutely true.
The problem here is in the statement of:
$num = $num++;
Yeah, I understood Daevid's email a bit better *after* I sent
mine. Then I was hoping no one noticed.
--
/Daniel P. Brown
... and, in fact, that /is/ how C behaves. The following code:
int a = 2;
a = a++;
printf(a = [%d]\n, a);
Will output a = [3]. At least on Ubuntu 9 using gcc 4.3.3.
So I retract my initial terse reply and apologize for misunderstanding
your question.
Ben
It's not that difficult
Ben Dunlap wrote:
... and, in fact, that /is/ how C behaves. The following code:
No, that's implementation's behaviour. AFAIK, the normative document
give to compiler the behaviour implementation. So, it can do
optimization, that gives strange behaviour for a people how think
increment
Can someone PLEASE explain why the developers of PHP chose this seemingly
whacky logic?
It mimicks C.
Ben
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Daevid Vincent wrote:
?PHP
$num = 123;
$num = $num++;
print $num; //this prints 123 and not 124 ?!!
$num = 123;
$num = ++$num;
print $num; //this prints 124 as expected
$num = 123;
$num++;
print $num; //this prints 124 as expected
$num = 123;
print $num++; //this prints 123 and not 124 ?!!
- Original Message
From: Ben Dunlap bdun...@agentintellect.com
To: Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com
Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 2:06:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with $foo++ vs ++$foo
Can someone PLEASE explain why
-Original Message-
From: Robert Cummings [mailto:rob...@interjinn.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:12 PM
To: Daevid Vincent
Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with
$foo++ vs ++$foo
Daevid Vincent wrote:
?PHP
$num = 123
My issue is that I see no reason to do the ASSIGNMENT FIRST and THEN
INCREMENT.
That's just counter intuitive. In the case of $foo = $num++, everything to
the right of the = should be computed FIRST and THEN handed off to the left
side. This particular expression (and I'm unaware of any
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 17:28, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote:
Personally I've never (in almost 20 years) done an assignment like $foo =
$foo++ as I always use just $foo++ or $foo += 1 or something, hence the
reason today is the day a co-worker stumbled upon this and was as confused
as
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 17:42, Daniel Brown danbr...@php.net wrote:
but rather by something just slightly more advanced:
?php
$num = file_get_contents('visitcount.txt');
if(isset($_GET['countme'])) {
echo You are visitor #.++$num.br /\n;
file_put_contents($num);
}
?
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Ben Dunlap bdun...@agentintellect.com wrote:
My issue is that I see no reason to do the ASSIGNMENT FIRST and THEN
INCREMENT.
That's just counter intuitive. In the case of $foo = $num++, everything to
the right of the = should be computed FIRST and THEN handed
-Original Message-
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:58 PM
To: php-general@lists.php.net; Daevid Vincent
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with
$foo++ vs ++$foo
mind-blowing. What the heck /is/ supposed
On Oct 2, 2009, at 15:22, Daevid Vincent wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:58 PM
To: php-general@lists.php.net; Daevid Vincent
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with
$foo++ vs ++$foo
int a = 2;
b = a++;
printf(b = [%d]\n, b);
b would be 2 when printed. However, after the second line (b = a++;)
finished executing, a would then be 3.
Sure, but that code is perfectly clear. It's the odd special case
where you assign the variable to itself, that's
Daevid Vincent wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Ben Dunlap [mailto:bdun...@agentintellect.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:58 PM
To: php-general@lists.php.net; Daevid Vincent
Subject: Re: [PHP] Whacky increment/assignment logic with
$foo++ vs ++$foo
mind-blowing. What
64 matches
Mail list logo