RE: [PHP] PHP ide? Back On Topic
But I highly doubt you'll find a first-class PHP code IDE (Zend Studio) that is also a first-class HTML layout tool (Dreamweaver). My 2006 rant said I'll accept multiple tools. I'll have to find that post and see if my needs have changed. Ahh here: I am looking for a tool (or tools) that can do the following: Use a Model Driven Architecture (Ex. Gentleware's just model concept and Applied Models' the model is the program concept) UML (Ex. Sun Java Studio Enterprise) Generate Database from UML (Ex. Umbrello) Generate Classes from UML (Ex. Umbrello/Sun Java Studio Enterprise -- backend classes) UI Design (Ex. Netbeans Matisse -- frontend classes) Integrate AJAX toolkits (Ex. Aptana/Dojo/jMaki) Separate application code from presentation, Model-View-Controller (Ex. Smarty/symfony) Deploy/Convert to HTML/Javascript (Ex. Google Web Toolkit/Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition -- design in Design view and have automatic code generated in code behind Source view) Code Refactoring (Ex. Sun Java Studio Enterprise/Netbeans) The above tools do some part of the workflow I want, but they do not play well together as far as I know (usually because they are based on a specific language or dialect of that language). And some do not have a web application as the deployment target. Then you don't want to be working in HTML. True. With the ongoing browser wars, let vendors like Yahoo and YUI handle that layer. And let's start getting some decent requirements http://www.serena.com/products/prototype-composer/home.html and http://www.visual-paradigm.com/ Okay okay, maybe I'm advancing myself out of a job. _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP ide? Back On Topic
Do you pay for Ubuntu? Maybe a support package? Earlier this week I was pissed at Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 and their developers. And I began thinking that the major difference between open source software (free as in no $ outa my pocket) and retail closed source software is that maybe, just maybe, I have someone to complain to about their bugs in the retail case, and should just be thankful I have an ordered set of bits given to me for free in the open source case that sometimes gets the job done (not to mention sometimes getting support, community, knowledge, etc.). I tend to fall back to DW -- currently CS3, but I'm always looking around. It crashed on a paste attempt after a simple plain text copy. The DW 8 developers didn't know how to use threads (and threads were hyped in that version). They would run a thread to block my current requested action to do something locally by doing something remote (which I state again, I did not request. If you insist on doing the remote action which I didn't request, it's perfect for a thread, so please put it in the background.) I think I prefered DW MX 2004 over DW MX. 8 had a nice fold your source wherever you want feature though. I was interested in CS3 for the Spry, but it's weak. Back to basic hand coding with YUI, Scriptaculous, Xajax, etc. using DW basically as an editor and FTP client. Oh and Crimson Editor when I was on MS Windows for Perl files which DW couldn't deal with. I use Xcode on the Mac for Perl files now. I should also start using Xcode for PHP projects. My (perceived) problem is that I need a tool that helps me do my job well, but not so well that it looks like I can be replaced. I'm telling you that Tersus scares me [and I will not tell my employer about it LOL]. gi.tibco.com will be my next real evaluation for an IDE at work. At home I'll spend my time on Tersus. Except I'm into a project at home now that is easier if I use what I know. I just looked at Eclipse PDT (due to this topic and its posts). It looks like a text editor with possible project grouping of files. What do I gain by using it? Aptana is okay for Ajaxy javascript and html (and I think PHP). It's Eclipse again though LOL. I just don't like when I feel constrained and can't absolutely place a widget (like you can in MS Visual Basic). Netbeans Matisse (it has a new name now) can do it, but it deploys to Java. Delphi for PHP (retail product) looks good, but its MS Windows only. And although I can use a VM, I'd rather stay away from MS products. Sun Java Studio Creator can, but it's Java again. What do you want in an integrated development environment? I would expect Zend Studio to be _the_ PHP IDE, but it doesn't meet what I want in an IDE. I want to just model like Gentleware's Poseidon. Maybe some UML; maybe just Tersus. I want to refactor like Sun Java Studio Enterprise. I want to layout my GUI like VB, Matisse, and Apple's Interface Builder. I want to remote debug like Zend Studio. I have an extensive list I made in 2006 that would make this post even longer. So I know I'm missing some features. And I want it all for free as in beer and no $ out of my pocket (to use personally). Well, if neccessary, I'll also have the company pay for it and expect to be able to use it at home like the DW licenses. And I'll still be looking around for the next best thing. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: php-general@lists.php.net Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:03:13 +0100 Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP ide? OT On Friday 09 November 2007 00:47:56 you wrote: On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 00:28 +0100, Børge Holen wrote: On Friday 09 November 2007 00:03:32 Instruct ICC wrote: Just wondering if anyone uses an IDE and if so what ones? Ta, H. Quanta +, of course. Other is to much work and not worth the effort... I really cannot see what so many of you guys see in eclipse, it's a mistake all together I use JOE of course. I really can't see what so many of you guys see in an IDE :B I'm waiting for Tersus4PHP (which is basically Eclipse http://www.tersus.com -- Go there with FF) umm yeah right, some create and some steal and brag bout em discoveries they've made to save the f* day. ;D Not mine. But if you do Java, that's your bogey. oh no, I wasn't hinting your way, I more or less commented on tersus beeing eclipse. It's like the ubunty hype, witch fails to state on the homepage: we're practically NOTHING without debian. Ubuntu = Debian + New Life you know, thats what I call BS. if something fails to do anything by itself.. it should've stayed @ home. Just look at patches and fixes. They only deliver when the debian maintainers 've a fix ready, and between 2 days to a week for the maintainers to get it into their own pool. The reason is simple... Hype! they sell a product witch claims to be more or less a lifestyle of simplicity like osx, however maintenance is a bitch who noone wants to ride, and the
Re: [PHP] PHP ide? Back On Topic
On Thursday 08 November 2007, Instruct ICC wrote: Do you pay for Ubuntu? Maybe a support package? Earlier this week I was pissed at Adobe Dreamweaver CS3 and their developers. And I began thinking that the major difference between open source software (free as in no $ outa my pocket) and retail closed source software is that maybe, just maybe, I have someone to complain to about their bugs in the retail case, and should just be thankful I have an ordered set of bits given to me for free in the open source case that sometimes gets the job done (not to mention sometimes getting support, community, knowledge, etc.). In my case, it's entirely different. Too many proprietary software companies are locking down their software too far for me to be comfortable with. DRM, product activation, region coding, forced-subscriptions... The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more software users will slip through your fingers. There's still a very small number of non-free programs I use, but they're being replaced as quickly as I can with something open source and at least passable. I simply don't trust code that tries to fight me. *snip lots of talk about Dreamweaver et al* I just looked at Eclipse PDT (due to this topic and its posts). It looks like a text editor with possible project grouping of files. What do I gain by using it? Aptana is okay for Ajaxy javascript and html (and I think PHP). It's Eclipse again though LOL. I just don't like when I feel constrained and can't absolutely place a widget (like you can in MS Visual Basic). If you want to absolutely control layout, don't bother designing for the web. :-) Netbeans Matisse (it has a new name now) can do it, but it deploys to Java. Delphi for PHP (retail product) looks good, but its MS Windows only. And although I can use a VM, I'd rather stay away from MS products. Sun Java Studio Creator can, but it's Java again. What do you want in an integrated development environment? I would expect Zend Studio to be _the_ PHP IDE, but it doesn't meet what I want in an IDE. That's because Zend Studio (which is one of the few proprietary programs that I feel tempted to use personally, as I use it at work and love it) is a programmer's IDE. It's for people writing code. From the sound of it, you're looking for a designer's IDE, for doing things graphically. There's nothing wrong with that, mind you. Not in the least. But it's a different sort of task, and requires a different sort of tool. I want to just model like Gentleware's Poseidon. Maybe some UML; maybe just Tersus. I want to refactor like Sun Java Studio Enterprise. I want to layout my GUI like VB, Matisse, and Apple's Interface Builder. Then you don't want to be working in HTML. I want to remote debug like Zend Studio. That is easily my #1 favorite feature. :-) The only worthwhile context-sensitive code-assistance I've yet to find would be a close second. But I highly doubt you'll find a first-class PHP code IDE (Zend Studio) that is also a first-class HTML layout tool (Dreamweaver). -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
