Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Jim Lucas wrote: Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. Like I said Jim, that is what you get with CSS... a more versatile design. Don't listen to naysayers. ;-) Keep it up! Donovan -- =o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o DONOVAN D. BROOKE EUCA Design Center - Web Development, DTP, Consulting, and Labels - PH: (608) 770-3822| WEB: http://www.euca.ushttp://www.egg.bz =o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. TIA Sorry all, been a way from the list for a few weeks. Here is another try at it. Ok, revision #2 http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal_normal.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal_daily.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal_fancy.php Truly their isn't much fancy about that last one. Just a name... Anyways, you will see that the div code is exactly the same between pages, but the layout is radically different because of the style in play... I think this would be more useful then the others. With the first rendition, you had to break things on weeks/rows with the tables. I think this method is much simpler. Input welcome. Thanks. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Um. why. This type of tabular data is exactly what tables are for.
http://giveupandusetables.com/
All you've done is substitute a whacky DIV layout for a TABLE one:
div class=table_tr row_color{$mod}
div class=table_td first_name{$row['first_name']}/div
div class=table_td last_name{$row['last_name']}/div
div class=table_td address{$row['address']}/div
div class=table_td phone_number{$row['phone_number']}/div
br clear=both /
/div
isn't much different than:
tr class=table_tr row_color{$mod}
td class=table_td first_name{$row['first_name']}/td
td class=table_td last_name{$row['last_name']}/td
td class=table_td address{$row['address']}/td
td class=table_td phone_number{$row['phone_number']}/td
/tr
what the hell did it save or give you??!
And dude. What's with the hiddeous HEREDOC stuff? Ugh.
Pop in and out of PHP like Rasmus intended. There's virtually no speed hit
and it makes the code hella-easier to read (and colorize in any normal IDE).
?
tr class=table_tr ?= row_color{$mod} ?
td class=table_td first_name?= $row['first_name'] ?/td
td class=table_td last_name?= $row['last_name'] ?/td
td class=table_td address?= $row['address'] ?/td
td class=table_td phone_number?= $row['phone_number'] ?/td
/tr
?php
It pisses me off all these people going out of their way to bad-mouth tables
and think their elitist DIVs are so great (Not you Jim). I've been a web
developer since 1992 and I HATE DIVs for layout too. They never work exactly
right and I always end up using tables again for layout.
http://daevid.com
-Original Message-
From: Jim Lucas [mailto:li...@cmsws.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:02 AM
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would
add my thoughts.
I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less
layouts involving tabular data, calendars,
etc...
Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what
you think.
http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php
http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps
(source for above)
http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php
When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty
rough on the eyes, but still accessible.
Same thing with the tabular data structure.
But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility
applications work, I am guessing that the
layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly
well. Let me know if I am way off the
mark with my thoughts.
If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me.
TIA
--
Jim Lucas
Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V
by William Shakespeare
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
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[PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. TIA -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. TIA I forgot to mention that I have checked this in the following browsers all on Windows XP SP3 IE6 Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.20 Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 Safari 4 Public Beta Opera 9.64 the layout looked exactly the same between all the various browsers. If you have a different browser then mentioned above and you have a different layout let me know. If you could get me a screen shot, that would be great. Thank again. -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
2009/5/21 Jim Lucas li...@cmsws.com Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. TIA I forgot to mention that I have checked this in the following browsers all on Windows XP SP3 IE6 Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.20 Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 Safari 4 Public Beta Opera 9.64 the layout looked exactly the same between all the various browsers. If you have a different browser then mentioned above and you have a different layout let me know. If you could get me a screen shot, that would be great. Thank again. -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php But you're just using the same design semantic, but coding it in CSS instead of using table; it even has the same name! There appears to be nothing wrong with tables when used for the right reasons - they _are_ there for a reason. -- Luke Slater http://dinosaur-os.com/ :O)
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 01:02:07AM -0700, Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. I have to agree with the other responders, that in both these cases, I think even W3C would agree that tables are the proper matrix for what you're doing. In fact, if styles were turned off, putting them in tables would have them still display properly. But for the record, this was good work. They look nice. ;-} Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
At 1:02 AM -0700 5/21/09, Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php Any source for the above? :-) Your work, as always, is top-notch. I've tested both your table and calendar in other browsers and they work quite well-- congratulations. My thoughts are -- my understanding the reason why tables have received such bad-press is that designers have abused tables in holding designs together with nested tables AND in doing so made it difficult for the visually disabled to pull content from the site. Screen readers do not read the screen but rather read the source and pull out of it what they (the screen reader program) think is content. Translating nested tables becomes an impossible job for them. In that light, if one compares your code with the amount of code to do this with tables, I don't see much difference. With tables, one uses tr and td whereas your code uses div class=table_tr and div class=table_td -- while you do it nicely, I really don't see much difference in structure or verbosity. Furthermore, styling your table as compared to a standard table is nearly identical -- I don't see an advantage to either. Additionally, and not of your doing, even the new css tables don't solve this verbosity problem but instead offer more difficulties for browsers -- such as Safari doesn't understand caption-side correctly. In any event, I wouldn't mind seeing the php that creates your calendar. I'm working on a project at the moment where I need to review week, month, two-month, and three-month displays. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.php which could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 10:44 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.php which could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com Well, yeah, there isn't any events or anything attached to any day! Like I said, easy enough to tweak and output a link on a particular date that matches something in the database. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Yeah, it doesn't work here, either. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Shawn McKenzie nos...@mckenzies.netwrote: Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.phpwhich could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Ashley Sheridan wrote: On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 10:44 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.php which could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com Well, yeah, there isn't any events or anything attached to any day! Like I said, easy enough to tweak and output a link on a particular date that matches something in the database. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk OK, sorry. I thought it was supposed to do something. Nice never the less. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
I'd be more fond of unrolling some of those loops and feeding the data into a proper template than tweaking what looks like really half-arsed code. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.ukwrote: On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 10:44 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.phpwhich could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com Well, yeah, there isn't any events or anything attached to any day! Like I said, easy enough to tweak and output a link on a particular date that matches something in the database. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 12:14 -0400, Eddie Drapkin wrote: I'd be more fond of unrolling some of those loops and feeding the data into a proper template than tweaking what looks like really half-arsed code. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.ukwrote: On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 10:44 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Ashley Sheridan wrote: Tedd, I've got a fairly simple calendar script in PHP here http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk/coding.php?group=phparticle=coding_php_calendar.phpwhich could be adapted fairly easily with the right tweaks. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk I cant get the calendar on your site to do anything. No links and clicks do nothing. FF 3.0.10 / Ubuntu. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com Well, yeah, there isn't any events or anything attached to any day! Like I said, easy enough to tweak and output a link on a particular date that matches something in the database. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php How do you mean feeding it into a proper template? Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Jim Lucas wrote: Jim Lucas wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. Hi Jim, I personally like these kinds of experiments. One thing people are not mentioning is that you now have greater and more efficient control over the look and feel of your layouts. My only suggestion is maybe shorter naming conventions. :-) That is because I type all day, and each character ends up weighing into the time it takes to develop stuff.. (so 'table_th' could become 't_th', or even 't_h'). If you are going for easy to to read, then nevermind on this.. it's just a personal preference. ;-) Donovan -- =o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o D. BROOKE EUCA Design Center WebDNA Software Corp. WEB: http://www.euca.us | http://www.webdna.us =o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o WebDNA: [** Square Bracket Utopia **] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
On 21/5/09 09:02, Jim Lucas wrote: I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... [snip] But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. The responses suggesting that even W3C would let you use tables for data tables are too weak. W3C recommend you use the best possible semantic (X)HTML for your structured content and, if you want to style it, suggest a skin or skins for that structure with CSS. This is why table is the wrong tool for grid layout and the /right/ tool for tabular data. This isn't semantics for the sake of semantics. Table markup implies a series of relationships that user agents can use in two basic ways: 1) Render content appropriately to communicate tabular relationships. For example, text browsers and browser/user stylesheets in GUI browsers can arrange tables in rows and columns, stick borders between cells, embolden/color header cells and captions, repeat header rows after a page break when printing. GUI browsers can copy table markup to system clipboards such that you can paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet as a table. Screen readers can read or braille the table caption or summary when the table receives focus, and render an individual data cell's headers when it receives content focus. 2) Provide navigational functionality. For example, popular screen readers use table markup to give users commands to list tables on a page, jump to the next table, move to the next row rather than the next cell, query a cell for its headers, read row-by-row, or read column-by-column. For example: http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Tables.htm http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Table_Reading_Commands.htm So replacing good data markup ( http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/ ) with a tree of div elements involves a substantial loss of functionality, and accessibility. If for some reason, you /must/ use generic div elements instead of real tabular markup, I strongly recommend you annotate them with WAI-ARIA attributes (grid and related roles). Supporting clients will expose similar structural information to assistive technology as you would get with (X)HTML tables. WAI-ARIA has poor support compared to bog-standard (X)HTML tables, but it should be supported by the some of the newest browsers and screen readers (e.g. Firefox 3, IE8, and JAWS 10). Calendar markup is a very tricky one. But I'd certainly take advantage of (X)HTML's dedicated markup for relationships ( tables, lists, headings, hyperlinks ) to help users navigate the calendar and to ensure a decent presentation (even without your CSS) is applied, rather than expect users to parse linearized div elements. Some useful discussion at: http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/describing-a-semantic-calendar/ http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_19_using_real_table_headers.html http://georgiatechcatea.wordpress.com/2007/01/16/accessible-calendars-for-blogs-and-websites/ -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On 21/5/09 09:02, Jim Lucas wrote: I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... [snip] But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. The responses suggesting that even W3C would let you use tables for data tables are too weak. W3C recommend you use the best possible semantic (X)HTML for your structured content and, if you want to style it, suggest a skin or skins for that structure with CSS. This is why table is the wrong tool for grid layout and the /right/ tool for tabular data. This isn't semantics for the sake of semantics. Table markup implies a series of relationships that user agents can use in two basic ways: 1) Render content appropriately to communicate tabular relationships. For example, text browsers and browser/user stylesheets in GUI browsers can arrange tables in rows and columns, stick borders between cells, embolden/color header cells and captions, repeat header rows after a page break when printing. GUI browsers can copy table markup to system clipboards such that you can paste the table into a word processor or spreadsheet as a table. Screen readers can read or braille the table caption or summary when the table receives focus, and render an individual data cell's headers when it receives content focus. 2) Provide navigational functionality. For example, popular screen readers use table markup to give users commands to list tables on a page, jump to the next table, move to the next row rather than the next cell, query a cell for its headers, read row-by-row, or read column-by-column. For example: http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Tables.htm http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Table_Reading_Commands.htm So replacing good data markup ( http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/ ) with a tree of div elements involves a substantial loss of functionality, and accessibility. If for some reason, you /must/ use generic div elements instead of real tabular markup, I strongly recommend you annotate them with WAI-ARIA attributes (grid and related roles). Supporting clients will expose similar structural information to assistive technology as you would get with (X)HTML tables. WAI-ARIA has poor support compared to bog-standard (X)HTML tables, but it should be supported by the some of the newest browsers and screen readers (e.g. Firefox 3, IE8, and JAWS 10). Calendar markup is a very tricky one. But I'd certainly take advantage of (X)HTML's dedicated markup for relationships ( tables, lists, headings, hyperlinks ) to help users navigate the calendar and to ensure a decent presentation (even without your CSS) is applied, rather than expect users to parse linearized div elements. Some useful discussion at: http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/10/describing-a-semantic-calendar/ http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_19_using_real_table_headers.html http://georgiatechcatea.wordpress.com/2007/01/16/accessible-calendars-for-blogs-and-websites/ -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis yup, if you are ever in doublt as to whether you are doing things correctly or not, highlight the entire web page in question, copy it, and paste it in to a very basic text editor. Then read from line 1 to the end, if any of it doesn't make sense or seems misplaced, then it's been made incorrectly. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] table-less layouts; Ideas welcome
this reminds me of the classic line in Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal: Besides, the determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language. On 5/21/09 4:02 AM, Jim Lucas li...@cmsws.com wrote: Since this has been a topic of dicussion, I figured I would add my thoughts. I have been toying with the idea of doing a table-less layouts involving tabular data, calendars, etc... Recent threads have finally made me do it. Let me know what you think. http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.php http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_tables.phps (source for above) http://www.cmsws.com/examples/templates/div_cal.php When you turn off the styles, the calendar becomes pretty rough on the eyes, but still accessible. Same thing with the tabular data structure. But, not knowing how the various types of accessibility applications work, I am guessing that the layout to an application trying to read it should work fairly well. Let me know if I am way off the mark with my thoughts. If you want to respond off list, that if fine by me. TIA -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
