Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:51:55 +0100, Ashley Sheridan wrote: I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not the values they may or may not have. That's probably true, though. /Nisse -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:59:36 -0400, tedd wrote: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or In HTML (as opposed to XHTML), there are a bunch of shortcut features[1] that allow you to write option selected=selected or option selected with exactly the same meaning. more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. The selected attribute is case insensitive in HTML, so there is no difference between the two. it will still work but will throw a validation error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw such as error. XHTML is different. It doen't have nearly as many shortcuts as HTML, and tends to be more sensitive about case. I don't know (and don't care) about the exact details. [1]: They have technical names that I can't remember. Look them up in the SGML standard. /Nisse -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On 17 June 2009 22:05, Nisse Engström advised: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. Well, on checking I'm surprised to find that you are right and I am wrong, and I will have to mend my ways. I don't know how I came to believe that the attribute value didn't matter, but there you go. An excellent example of what I referred to before as confidence in one's own misunderstanding! Cheers! Mike -- Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer, C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus, Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk Tel: +44 113 812 4730 To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On 17 June 2009 23:56, PJ advised: Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) Oh, good grief! Did you even read what you've quoted from me above? If you code to an HTML standard, then multiple can indeed be just plain multiple, but HTML 4 does allow the addition of =multiple for compatibility reasons. But if you code to an XHTML standard, multiple must be multiple=multiple, as XHTML **requires** that all attributes have an argument, and (as I've just learned!) multiple is the only valid argument for the multiple attribute. No modern browser that I know of will object to the multiple=multiple usage. Cheers! Mike -- Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer, C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus, Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk Tel: +44 113 812 4730 To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
Ford, Mike wrote: On 17 June 2009 23:56, PJ advised: Nisse Engstr�m wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) Oh, good grief! Did you even read what you've quoted from me above? If you code to an HTML standard, then multiple can indeed be just plain multiple, but HTML 4 does allow the addition of =multiple for compatibility reasons. But if you code to an XHTML standard, multiple must be multiple=multiple, as XHTML **requires** that all attributes have an argument, and (as I've just learned!) multiple is the only valid argument for the multiple attribute. No modern browser that I know of will object to the multiple=multiple usage. Ouch, my hand is beginning to hurt. :-( -- Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme. - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
At 8:47 PM -0400 6/17/09, Robert Cummings wrote: tedd wrote: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context is LESS specific. Cheers, Rob: It's by definition that case-sensitive is more specific than case-insensitive -- for example with respect to case-insensitive selected, SELECTED, and SeLeCtEd are all the same whereas case sensitive is more specific. Is this not true? Or do you have a different definition that states more variety is more specific? As far as using selected=selected or selected=SELECTED, I prefer the latter -- but I don't think it makes much difference. Do you see otherwise? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
tedd wrote: At 8:47 PM -0400 6/17/09, Robert Cummings wrote: tedd wrote: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context is LESS specific. Cheers, Rob: It's by definition that case-sensitive is more specific than case-insensitive -- for example with respect to case-insensitive selected, SELECTED, and SeLeCtEd are all the same whereas case sensitive is more specific. Is this not true? Or do you have a different definition that states more variety is more specific? As far as using selected=selected or selected=SELECTED, I prefer the latter -- but I don't think it makes much difference. Do you see otherwise? The spec says set the attribute value equal to the name of the attribute itself. XHTML has case sensitive attributes. You have not set the value equal to the attribute name, you have set it equal to the uppercase transformation of the attribute name. if it were a password, most systems wouldn't let you in. Fortunately for you, there's a zillion others out there that follow instructions according to their own internal (oft misguided) interpretation, and so the browser developers decided to ignore case sensitivity. I only added a comment because you said: selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED' In which case you've suggested the latter format is more correct... I disagree for the aforementioned reasons. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On 17 June 2009 02:11, Shawn McKenzie advised: PJ wrote: I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd. The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me. In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then who knows?) I know. So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't (off/boolean 0) in the HTML context. So while other variations may work, this is correct: For multiple select: SELECT multiple name=component-select --or-- For single select: SELECT name=component-select This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. Other differences you may see are because in most programming TIMTOWTDI[1], as perl would have it, and different people make different choices about which way to go. Then again, some *is* simply due to sloppiness, or under-explanation because of over-familiarity with the code or feature in question, or confidence in one's own misunderstanding! [1] There Is More Than One Way To Do It Cheers! Mike -- Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer, C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus, Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk Tel: +44 113 812 4730 To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. /Nisse -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. /Nisse I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not the values they may or may not have. Thanks Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) -- Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme. - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. /Nisse I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not the values they may or may not have. Thanks Ash Ash: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, it will still work but will throw a validation error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw such as error. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 18:59 -0400, tedd wrote: At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. /Nisse I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not the values they may or may not have. Thanks Ash Ash: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, it will still work but will throw a validation error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw such as error. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com I was under the impression that in XHTML *all* attributes had to have values, even if just empty strings? Thanks Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
I don't know what validator you're using, but according to http://validator.w3.org/ (as official as it gets) the following fragment is correct in HTML 4.01, HTML 5, XHTML 1.0 Strict, and XHTML 1.1: select option selected=selectedtest/option /select Thus sayeth the W3C, so let it be written, so let it be done. Go read a tutorial on the transition to XHTML as well as XML. 2009/6/17 PJ af.gour...@videotron.ca: Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) -- Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme. - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
Ford, Mike wrote: On 17 June 2009 02:11, Shawn McKenzie advised: PJ wrote: I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd. The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me. In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then who knows?) I know. So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't (off/boolean 0) in the HTML context. So while other variations may work, this is correct: For multiple select: SELECT multiple name=component-select --or-- For single select: SELECT name=component-select This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. Any validator should validate against the declared DTD which should define the accepted values. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
tedd wrote: At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote: On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote: This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people have chosen to validate against different standards. The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple. /Nisse I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not the values they may or may not have. Thanks Ash Ash: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context is LESS specific. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
Robert Cummings wrote: Ash: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context is LESS specific. I always do lower case and it validates (both as html 4.01 and xhtml 1.1) but only the element and attribute names must be lower case. attribute values do not need to be lower case. Maybe they do in this case, I haven't tried validating selected=SELECTED - but in general, the case sensitive nature only applies because the DTD is case sensitive and upper case element/attribute names are not defined in the DTD. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
Michael A. Peters wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: Ash: As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED. How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context is LESS specific. I always do lower case and it validates (both as html 4.01 and xhtml 1.1) but only the element and attribute names must be lower case. attribute values do not need to be lower case. Maybe they do in this case, I haven't tried validating selected=SELECTED - but in general, the case sensitive nature only applies because the DTD is case sensitive and upper case element/attribute names are not defined in the DTD. I didn't say it didn't work, I said it's not more specific to use an uppercase value that's supposed to be equal to the attribute name itself... which in turn should be lowercase according to XHTML. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity
-Original Message- From: Shawn McKenzie [mailto:nos...@mckenzies.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:11 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity PJ wrote: I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd. The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me. In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then who knows?) I know. So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't (off/boolean 0) in the HTML context. So while other variations may work, this is correct: For multiple select: SELECT multiple name=component-select --or-- For single select: SELECT name=component-select other variations; then theres in_array() that has explanations about as clear as a cesspool - the way it's explained is not at all clear, -- and somebody did an in_array($tring, text) - which is reversed... don't these idiots read what they are putting up on the internet? And some of you wonder why I ask stupid questions? Rare, indeed, is the clear explanation or demonstration. I get the impression that there are a lot of asholeys out there who learn the less than basic programming and then forget that even a ignoramus as I can be looking for rather complicated guidance. The Internet was a great promise, but god is is overbloated with floating intellectual excrement. Sorry, but ranting sometimes is good for the psyche. :o Rather than copying and pasting from the Internet, learn the basics of what you are doing and then use the documentation. php.net has GREAT docs and w3c.org is the answer for all of your HTML/CSS needs. -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com Wow. Leave the list for a few days and miss all the excitement. There are also a lot of good books out there to learn from. Taking a few classes and actually earning a degree wouldn't kill you either. [Marc Hall - HallMarc Websites - http://www.hallmarcwebsites.com 610.446.3346] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php