Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread Nisse Engström
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:51:55 +0100, Ashley Sheridan wrote:

 I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes
 that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value
 that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use
 multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far
 as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as
 the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not
 the values they may or may not have.

That's probably true, though.

/Nisse

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread Nisse Engström
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:59:36 -0400, tedd wrote:

 As I understand it and is my experience, that is 
 true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be 
 equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or 

In HTML (as opposed to XHTML), there are a bunch of
shortcut features[1] that allow you to write
option selected=selected or option selected
with exactly the same meaning.

 more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, 

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. The
selected attribute is case insensitive in HTML, so
there is no difference between the two.

 it will still work but will throw a validation 
 error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I 
 don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw 
 such as error.

XHTML is different. It doen't have nearly as many
shortcuts as HTML, and tends to be more sensitive
about case. I don't know (and don't care) about the
exact details.


[1]: They have technical names that I can't remember.
 Look them up in the SGML standard.


/Nisse

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RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread Ford, Mike
On 17 June 2009 22:05, Nisse Engström advised:

 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:
 
 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.
 
 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple.

Well, on checking I'm surprised to find that you are right and I am wrong, and 
I will have to mend my ways. I don't know how I came to believe that the 
attribute value didn't matter, but there you go.  An excellent example of what 
I referred to before as confidence in one's own misunderstanding!

Cheers!

Mike

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RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread Ford, Mike
On 17 June 2009 23:56, PJ advised:

 Nisse Engström wrote:
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:
 
 
 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.
 
 
 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple.
 
 From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000
 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my
 fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just
 plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) 

Oh, good grief! Did you even read what you've quoted from me above?

If you code to an HTML standard, then multiple can indeed be just plain 
multiple, but HTML 4 does allow the addition of =multiple for compatibility 
reasons.

But if you code to an XHTML standard, multiple must be multiple=multiple, as 
XHTML **requires** that all attributes have an argument, and (as I've just 
learned!) multiple is the only valid argument for the multiple attribute.

No modern browser that I know of will object to the multiple=multiple usage.

Cheers!

Mike

 --
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C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus, 
Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS,  LS1 3HE,  United Kingdom
Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk
Tel: +44 113 812 4730


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread PJ
Ford, Mike wrote:
 On 17 June 2009 23:56, PJ advised:

   
 Nisse Engstr�m wrote:
 
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:


   
 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.

 
 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to select multiple.

   
 From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000
 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my
 fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just
 plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-) 
 

 Oh, good grief! Did you even read what you've quoted from me above?

 If you code to an HTML standard, then multiple can indeed be just plain 
 multiple, but HTML 4 does allow the addition of =multiple for compatibility 
 reasons.

 But if you code to an XHTML standard, multiple must be multiple=multiple, 
 as XHTML **requires** that all attributes have an argument, and (as I've just 
 learned!) multiple is the only valid argument for the multiple attribute.

 No modern browser that I know of will object to the multiple=multiple usage.
   
Ouch, my hand is beginning to hurt. :-(

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread tedd

At 8:47 PM -0400 6/17/09, Robert Cummings wrote:

tedd wrote:


As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a 
stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as 
selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED.


How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and 
HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this 
context is LESS specific.


Cheers,


Rob:

It's by definition that case-sensitive is more specific than 
case-insensitive -- for example with respect to case-insensitive 
selected, SELECTED, and SeLeCtEd are all the same whereas case 
sensitive is more specific. Is this not true?


Or do you have a different definition that states more variety is 
more specific?


As far as using selected=selected or selected=SELECTED, I prefer 
the latter -- but I don't think it makes much difference. Do you see 
otherwise?


Cheers,

tedd

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-18 Thread Robert Cummings

tedd wrote:

At 8:47 PM -0400 6/17/09, Robert Cummings wrote:

tedd wrote:
As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a 
stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as 
selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED.
How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and 
HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this 
context is LESS specific.


Cheers,


Rob:

It's by definition that case-sensitive is more specific than 
case-insensitive -- for example with respect to case-insensitive 
selected, SELECTED, and SeLeCtEd are all the same whereas case 
sensitive is more specific. Is this not true?


Or do you have a different definition that states more variety is 
more specific?


As far as using selected=selected or selected=SELECTED, I prefer 
the latter -- but I don't think it makes much difference. Do you see 
otherwise?


The spec says set the attribute value equal to the name of the attribute 
itself. XHTML has case sensitive attributes. You have not set the value 
equal to the attribute name, you have set it equal to the uppercase 
transformation of the attribute name. if it were a password, most 
systems wouldn't let you in. Fortunately for you, there's a zillion 
others out there that follow instructions according to their own 
internal (oft misguided) interpretation, and so the browser developers 
decided to ignore case sensitivity. I only added a comment because you said:


selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED'

In which case you've suggested the latter format is more correct... I 
disagree for the aforementioned reasons.


Cheers,
Rob.
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RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Ford, Mike
On 17 June 2009 02:11, Shawn McKenzie advised:

 PJ wrote:
 I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd.
 The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me.
 In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have
 run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as
 select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then
 who knows?)
 
 I know.  So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a
 boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't
 (off/boolean 0) in the HTML context.  So while other variations may
work,
 this is correct: 
 
 For multiple select:
 SELECT multiple name=component-select
 
 --or--
 
 For single select:
 SELECT name=component-select

This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
have chosen to validate against different standards.

Other differences you may see are because in most programming
TIMTOWTDI[1], as perl would have it, and different people make different
choices about which way to go.

Then again, some *is* simply due to sloppiness, or under-explanation
because of over-familiarity with the code or feature in question, or
confidence in one's own misunderstanding!

[1] There Is More Than One Way To Do It

Cheers!

Mike

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C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus, 
Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS,  LS1 3HE,  United Kingdom
Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk
Tel: +44 113 812 4730



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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Nisse Engström
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:

 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.

The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
select multiple.


/Nisse

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Ashley Sheridan
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote:
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:
 
  This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
  value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
  name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
  name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
  have chosen to validate against different standards.
 
 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
 select multiple.
 
 
 /Nisse
 
I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes
that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value
that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use
multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far
as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as
the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not
the values they may or may not have.

Thanks
Ash
www.ashleysheridan.co.uk


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread PJ
Nisse Engström wrote:
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:

   
 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.
 

 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
 select multiple.
   
From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000
entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my
fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just
plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-)

-- 
Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme.
-
Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
   http://www.ptahhotep.com
   http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread tedd

At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote:

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote:

 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:

  This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
  value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
  name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
  name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
  have chosen to validate against different standards.

 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
 select multiple.


 /Nisse


I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes
that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value
that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use
multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far
as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as
the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not
the values they may or may not have.

Thanks
Ash



Ash:

As I understand it and is my experience, that is 
true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be 
equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or 
more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, 
it will still work but will throw a validation 
error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I 
don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw 
such as error.


Cheers,

tedd

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Ashley Sheridan
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 18:59 -0400, tedd wrote:
 At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
 On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote:
   On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:
 
This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
have chosen to validate against different standards.
 
   The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
   it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
   yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
   select multiple.
 
 
   /Nisse
 
 I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes
 that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value
 that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use
 multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far
 as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as
 the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not
 the values they may or may not have.
 
 Thanks
 Ash
 
 
 Ash:
 
 As I understand it and is my experience, that is 
 true -- a stand-alone HTML attribute should be 
 equal to itself, such as selected=selected, or 
 more specifically selected=SELECTED. However, 
 it will still work but will throw a validation 
 error/warning in some DOCTYPEs, such as XHTLM. I 
 don't know of any other DOCTYPE that might throw 
 such as error.
 
 Cheers,
 
 tedd
 
 -- 
 ---
 http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
 
I was under the impression that in XHTML *all* attributes had to have
values, even if just empty strings?

Thanks
Ash
www.ashleysheridan.co.uk


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread LinuxManMikeC
I don't know what validator you're using, but according to
http://validator.w3.org/ (as official as it gets) the following
fragment is correct in HTML 4.01, HTML 5, XHTML 1.0 Strict, and XHTML
1.1:

select
  option selected=selectedtest/option
/select

Thus sayeth the W3C, so let it be written, so let it be done.  Go read
a tutorial on the transition to XHTML as well as XML.

2009/6/17 PJ af.gour...@videotron.ca:
 Nisse Engström wrote:
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:


 This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
 value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
 name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
 name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
 have chosen to validate against different standards.


 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
 select multiple.

 From my limited experience, and vast reading of those glorious 20,000
 entries on the Internet, multiple does not take a parameter. I had my
 fingers slapped once when I validated or something - multiple is just
 plain multiple ! :-P ;-) :-)

 --
 Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme.
 -
 Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
   http://www.ptahhotep.com
   http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Michael A. Peters

Ford, Mike wrote:

On 17 June 2009 02:11, Shawn McKenzie advised:


PJ wrote:

I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd.
The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me.
In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have
run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as
select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then
who knows?)

I know.  So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a
boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't
(off/boolean 0) in the HTML context.  So while other variations may

work,
this is correct: 


For multiple select:
SELECT multiple name=component-select

--or--

For single select:
SELECT name=component-select


This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select multiple=multiple
name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different people
have chosen to validate against different standards.


Any validator should validate against the declared DTD which should 
define the accepted values.


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Robert Cummings



tedd wrote:

At 10:51 PM +0100 6/17/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote:

On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 23:05 +0200, Nisse Engström wrote:

 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:09 +0100, Ford, Mike wrote:

  This is very true -- but XHTML requires *all* attributes to have a
  value, so an XHTML conformant page will use select 
multiple=multiple

  name=selector (or something similar such as select multiple=yes
  name=selector). The only inconsistency here is that different 
people

  have chosen to validate against different standards.

 The multiple attribute only has one value: multiple, so
 it has to be select multiple=multiple. I don't think
 yes cuts the mustard. In HTML, you can shorten it to
 select multiple.


 /Nisse


I read somewhere that the XHTML standards say that for all attributes
that would normally be standalone in HTML, they should be given a value
that is the same as the attribute name, so you would use
multiple=multiple, selected=selected, checked=checked, etc. As far
as I know, using this in regular HTML won't cause it to choke either, as
the parsers tend to only look at the existence of the attributes, not
the values they may or may not have.

Thanks
Ash



Ash:

As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone 
HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, 
or more specifically selected=SELECTED.


How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and 
HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context 
is LESS specific.


Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP

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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Michael A. Peters

Robert Cummings wrote:


Ash:

As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a stand-alone 
HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as selected=selected, 
or more specifically selected=SELECTED.


How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and 
HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this context 
is LESS specific.


I always do lower case and it validates (both as html 4.01 and xhtml 
1.1) but only the element and attribute names must be lower case.


attribute values do not need to be lower case. Maybe they do in this 
case, I haven't tried validating selected=SELECTED - but in general, 
the case sensitive nature only applies because the DTD is case sensitive 
and upper case element/attribute names are not defined in the DTD.


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Re: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-17 Thread Robert Cummings



Michael A. Peters wrote:

Robert Cummings wrote:


Ash:

As I understand it and is my experience, that is true -- a 
stand-alone HTML attribute should be equal to itself, such as 
selected=selected, or more specifically selected=SELECTED.


How is that MORE specific? XHTML is like a cross-section of XML and 
HTML. It is case sensitive, so using an uppercase value in this 
context is LESS specific.


I always do lower case and it validates (both as html 4.01 and xhtml 
1.1) but only the element and attribute names must be lower case.


attribute values do not need to be lower case. Maybe they do in this 
case, I haven't tried validating selected=SELECTED - but in general, 
the case sensitive nature only applies because the DTD is case sensitive 
and upper case element/attribute names are not defined in the DTD.


I didn't say it didn't work, I said it's  not more specific to use an 
uppercase value that's supposed to be equal to the attribute name 
itself... which in turn should be lowercase according to XHTML.


Cheers,
Rob.
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RE: [PHP] Re: sloppiness stupidity

2009-06-16 Thread HallMarc Websites


 -Original Message-
 From: Shawn McKenzie [mailto:nos...@mckenzies.net]
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:11 PM
 To: php-general@lists.php.net
 Subject: [PHP] Re: sloppiness  stupidity
 
 PJ wrote:
  I'm sorry, guys, but I am really getting po'd.
  The irresponsible sloppiness and stupidity is just getting to me.
  In my quest for a way to populate a multiple option select box I have
  run across so many errors that it's beyond belief... such nonsense as
  select for select or select=select ( think this is right, but then
  who knows?)
 
 I know.  So does the HTML recommendation which states that it is a
 boolean attribute, meaning it is stated (on/boolean 1) or it isn't
 (off/boolean 0) in the HTML context.  So while other variations may
 work, this is correct:
 
 For multiple select:
 SELECT multiple name=component-select
 
 --or--
 
 For single select:
 SELECT name=component-select
 
 
   other variations; then theres in_array() that has
  explanations about as clear as a cesspool - the way it's explained is
  not at all clear, -- and somebody did an in_array($tring, text) -
  which is reversed... don't these idiots read what they are putting up
 on
  the internet?
  And some of you wonder why I ask stupid questions? Rare, indeed, is
 the
  clear explanation or demonstration. I get the impression that there
 are
  a lot of asholeys out there who learn the less than basic programming
  and then forget that even a ignoramus as I can be looking for rather
  complicated guidance. The Internet was a great promise, but god is is
  overbloated with floating intellectual excrement.
  Sorry, but ranting sometimes is good for the psyche. :o
 
 
 Rather than copying and pasting from the Internet, learn the basics of
 what you are doing and then use the documentation.  php.net has GREAT
 docs and w3c.org is the answer for all of your HTML/CSS needs.
 
 --
 Thanks!
 -Shawn
 http://www.spidean.com
 

Wow. Leave the list for a few days and miss all the excitement. 

There are also a lot of good books out there to learn from. Taking a few 
classes and actually earning a degree wouldn't kill you either.

[Marc Hall - HallMarc Websites - http://www.hallmarcwebsites.com 610.446.3346]



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