Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-26 Thread Brian V Bonini
On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 20:22, Justin French wrote:

 
 I don't think I was being clear enough at all :)  12px is 12pixels... there
 is no way for it to *reliably* be reset to 14px, or 10px by the user on all
 browser.

That's like saying 10% is 10%. 10% of what? The physical size of a pixel
varies depending on the device therefore it is not static.

You said px is absolute and even tried to quote from the spec albeit
there was no such quote at the location you cited.

So again, I WILL quote directly from the spec:

-- SNIP --

There are two types of length units: relative and absolute. Relative
length units specify a length relative to another length property. Style
sheets that use relative units will more easily scale from one medium to
another (e.g., from a computer display to a laser printer).

Relative units are:

* em: the 'font-size' of the relevant font
* ex: the 'x-height' of the relevant font
* px: pixels, relative to the viewing device 

-- END SNIP --

I'm pretty sure that says px is a relative unit

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata.html#length-units

section 4.3.2


 
 In the current versions of IE for Win, using the text size larger smaller or
 % options in the menus has no effect whatsoever if values like 12px or 12pt
 are given.

Sounds like just one more reason in the long list of reasons not to use
MS software.

But, you are correct and if this is an issue then it needs to be
addresses accordingly.

However, if memory serves, the original question was how to get fonts to
appear more consistent in size across varying platforms and browsers.
Not accessibility issues. I believe I did provide the solution for that.
Like I said, try it, then we can debate... ;-)


 
 So, I stand partially corrected, the user CAN override ALL font size by
 digging into the accessibility menus, but I seriously doubt many do.

Well, really all you have to do is check the ignore font sizes in the
accessibility menu. But again, the fact that IE does not allow resizing
sounds more like an IE specific issue (bug if you will) especially since
every other browser I know of does allow it.

 
 If the latest versions of IE *DO* allow text zooming via the menus, again I
 stand corrected, but there are millions of web users out there on IE5 and
 IE6 without text zoom.  IMO, specifying a px or pt font size is taking away
 the users right to choose what font size they prefer to read with, IF they
 are using IE4/5/6.

Well, I guess, but I think MS took that decision away, not the site
author. Your always free to use NN, or Mozilla, or Opera.

Anyway, besides you mis-quoting the spec I am just arguing for the sake
of argument. Accessibility is an issue that should be addressed even if
Microsuck can't do it themselves and does not have the insight to make a
more user friendly method of controlling font sizes for the end user.
But, non of this really has anything to do with the original question.
And, it is certainly WAY off topic for the PHP list.

Peace,
-Brian
***




-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-26 Thread Justin French
Yes, we are way off topic.

You offered a solution, and it rang warning bells for me from an
accessibility P.O.V...  yes, I miss-quoted the spec, but yes, i'm right
about IE, and almost every developer using px should be very worried for
quite some time, until it gets addressed.

Cheers,

Justin


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread @ Edwin
Just to add...

Here's something that might interest you:

  http://www.alistapart.com/stories/alternate/

... and here's another one: (Should be better than the one discussed above
:) )

  http://www.alistapart.com/stories/phpswitch/

- E

Marek Kilimajer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You might solve this by providing different style sheet to on linux
 running browsers:
 if(ereg('Linux',$_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'])) {
 echo 'link REL=StyleSheet HREF=linux.css TYPE=text/css';
 } else {
 echo 'link REL=StyleSheet HREF=win.css TYPE=text/css';
 }


 conbud wrote:

 Hey. This really isnt a PHP question. but what fonts do you reccomend
using
 so they look decent on linux. Mainly looking for a good font that will
look
 nice in MoZilla and Galeon. Almost all the fonts Ive used so far appear
 really tiny or really bold and not very good to read.

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread Brian V Bonini
On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 10:35, 
  conbud wrote:
 
  Hey. This really isnt a PHP question. but what fonts do you reccomend
 using
  so they look decent on linux. Mainly looking for a good font that will
 look
  nice in MoZilla and Galeon. Almost all the fonts Ive used so far appear
  really tiny or really bold and not very good to read.

If you use a range of fonts with a generic family you should be ok, for
example:

verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif

Also, try to use relative sizes, if you use fixed sized like 10pt. you
will have size discrepancies on different platforms. If you use a
relative scheme like 12px it will render more consistently

BTW: I bet you'd find the same issues if you looked at your pages on a
MAC as well...

-Brian


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread Justin French
on 26/11/02 2:41 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 Also, try to use relative sizes, if you use fixed sized like 10pt. you
 will have size discrepancies on different platforms. If you use a
 relative scheme like 12px it will render more consistently

12px is NOT a relative size, and will mean that users with vision
impairment, etc etc will have trouble resizing the text to suit their
preferences... The relative sizes are things like small.

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#propdef-font-size

 BTW: I bet you'd find the same issues if you looked at your pages on a
 MAC as well...

You'd have the same problems on any computer where the user has fiddled with
the default font settings.

If you want total useability, you could just use p, and let your user's
browser settings take care of it, otherwise, the safest bets are things like

font-size: larger
font-size: 150%
font-size: 1.5em

rather than 12px or 12pt


But we're getting OT rapidly.

Try the CSS newsgroups -- I like this one:
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets


Cheers,

Justin



Justin French

http://Indent.com.au
Web Development  
Graphic Design



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread Brian V Bonini
On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 18:26, Justin French wrote:
 on 26/11/02 2:41 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
  Also, try to use relative sizes, if you use fixed sized like 10pt. you
  will have size discrepancies on different platforms. If you use a
  relative scheme like 12px it will render more consistently
 
 12px is NOT a relative size, and will mean that users with vision
 impairment, etc etc will have trouble resizing the text to suit their
 preferences... The relative sizes are things like small.
 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#propdef-font-size

px is obviously a relative unit (relative to the users screen) unless
your going to try to say everyone views stuff at the same dpi. It's late
so perhaps I'm missing it but I do not see anywhere in the spec that you
cited where it says px is absolute. However I will quote loosely from
the spec: values with relative units (em, ex, px) must be made absolute
by multiplying with the appropriate font or pixel size, 

So, go ahead and try what I suggested THEN tell me it's not right. Using
px WILL make it more consistent across win, linux, mac, etc.. and will
not inhibit the browsers ability to enlarge the text size at all...


 
  BTW: I bet you'd find the same issues if you looked at your pages on a
  MAC as well...
 
 You'd have the same problems on any computer where the user has fiddled with
 the default font settings.

No, the problem he stated was the inconsistency of sizes on different
platforms. A totally addressable issues regardless of what the user has
done with the default font settings.





-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread Justin French
on 26/11/02 11:04 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 18:26, Justin French wrote:
 on 26/11/02 2:41 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Also, try to use relative sizes, if you use fixed sized like 10pt. you
 will have size discrepancies on different platforms. If you use a
 relative scheme like 12px it will render more consistently
 
 12px is NOT a relative size, and will mean that users with vision
 impairment, etc etc will have trouble resizing the text to suit their
 preferences... The relative sizes are things like small.
 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#propdef-font-size
 
 px is obviously a relative unit (relative to the users screen) unless
 your going to try to say everyone views stuff at the same dpi. It's late
 so perhaps I'm missing it but I do not see anywhere in the spec that you
 cited where it says px is absolute. However I will quote loosely from
 the spec: values with relative units (em, ex, px) must be made absolute
 by multiplying with the appropriate font or pixel size,
 
 So, go ahead and try what I suggested THEN tell me it's not right. Using
 px WILL make it more consistent across win, linux, mac, etc.. and will
 not inhibit the browsers ability to enlarge the text size at all...

I don't think I was being clear enough at all :)  12px is 12pixels... there
is no way for it to *reliably* be reset to 14px, or 10px by the user on all
browser.

In the current versions of IE for Win, using the text size larger smaller or
% options in the menus has no effect whatsoever if values like 12px or 12pt
are given.

If you specify 12px, and I decide I need it bigger, I don't have many
options, other than totally overwriting your style sheet with my own (no
thanks!, and beyond most web users).  The good news is that because 12pt and
12px are so prolific on the web (and so evil in terms of accessability),
browser manufacturers are now beginning to make px and pt variable sizes as
well.

That is to say, in IE5 Mac, NN7 (and maybe 6), and some other browsers DO
LET YOU CHANGE THE FONT SIZE FRONT THE MENUS, selecting smaller, larger,
120%, or whatever.

The bad news is that the latest versions of IE6 (at least 3 months back when
I did some major CSS testing) did not let users do this.  It's well
documented, and people like Zeldman and A List Apart have spent months
campaigning for IE Win to match IE Mac and NN on this.

Here's a snippet from http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0702b.html

 To satisfy the demands of accessibility within the context of normative
 practices in commercial web design, IE/Win needs to do what IE/Mac did in
 March, 2000: implement Text Zoom, so visitors can resize any web text. Will
 Microsoft ever make this change to IE/Win? We can only hope.

And this one from http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0502c.html

 Pixels solve these problems by delivering a guaranteed base size. But what if
 that base size is too small for some readers?
 Opera has always offered its users the ability to easily scale any web
 page via Page Zoom. In January 2000, WaSPs Todd Fahrner and yours truly
 persuaded the appropriate engineers to add a similar feature (³Text Zoom²) to
 IE5/Mac and Mozilla/Netscape 6. Thus nearly all current browsers allow users
 to resize text set in pixels. If text is too small, hit a button, a command
 key combination, or a drop-down menu, and voila! Instant legibility.
 Alas, MSIE for Windows does not allow web users to resize text set in
 pixels. We will keep pestering Microsoft to add that feature to its Windows
 browser. Until they do, alternate style sheet widgets enable designers to work
 around this thorny accessibility problem.

So, I stand partially corrected, the user CAN override ALL font size by
digging into the accessibility menus, but I seriously doubt many do.

If the latest versions of IE *DO* allow text zooming via the menus, again I
stand corrected, but there are millions of web users out there on IE5 and
IE6 without text zoom.  IMO, specifying a px or pt font size is taking away
the users right to choose what font size they prefer to read with, IF they
are using IE4/5/6.


 No, the problem he stated was the inconsistency of sizes on different
 platforms. A totally addressable issues regardless of what the user has
 done with the default font settings.

A totally addressable issue *IF* you're prepared to laugh at accessibility
guidelines.

FWIW, I *have* and *do* specify px and pt font sizes on some of my sites,
mostly to meet client desires, but I do so only after pointing out the
issues and letting them make an informed descision.  Coincidently, that's
all I was trying to do here... point out that specifying fixed text sizes
like pt and px are not a magical solution to all problems.

At least until IE and whichever other browser catch up on the text zoom
thing.


Cheers,

Justin French

http://Indent.com.au
Web Development  
Graphic Design



--
PHP General Mailing List 

Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-25 Thread conbud
Lets see where to start. Ive used both the px, pixels, and the small and
tested them both in Linux (Mandrake 9.0) using Mozilla. Galeon and Opera,
using default settings they come with, and they zoom the text with no
problems. On windows Ive tested the same stuff using IE and Netscape, using
default settings they both come with,  and they all zoom to large and
smaller sizes no prob. Im not really looking for a style sheet switcher,
just needed a couple fonts to use. Im currently using helvetica, verdana,
sans-serif, arial. Which looks really good in windows, but in Linux the
letters look small and bold like. If I use the zoom options then the fonts
look ok. So do yout think If I make the fonts larger by default in the style
sheet it would be ok on most browsers in Linux ?

Thaks for all the replies,
Lee

Justin French [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
on 26/11/02 11:04 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 18:26, Justin French wrote:
 on 26/11/02 2:41 AM, Brian V Bonini ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 Also, try to use relative sizes, if you use fixed sized like 10pt. you
 will have size discrepancies on different platforms. If you use a
 relative scheme like 12px it will render more consistently

 12px is NOT a relative size, and will mean that users with vision
 impairment, etc etc will have trouble resizing the text to suit their
 preferences... The relative sizes are things like small.

 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/fonts.html#propdef-font-size

 px is obviously a relative unit (relative to the users screen) unless
 your going to try to say everyone views stuff at the same dpi. It's late
 so perhaps I'm missing it but I do not see anywhere in the spec that you
 cited where it says px is absolute. However I will quote loosely from
 the spec: values with relative units (em, ex, px) must be made absolute
 by multiplying with the appropriate font or pixel size,

 So, go ahead and try what I suggested THEN tell me it's not right. Using
 px WILL make it more consistent across win, linux, mac, etc.. and will
 not inhibit the browsers ability to enlarge the text size at all...

I don't think I was being clear enough at all :)  12px is 12pixels... there
is no way for it to *reliably* be reset to 14px, or 10px by the user on all
browser.

In the current versions of IE for Win, using the text size larger smaller or
% options in the menus has no effect whatsoever if values like 12px or 12pt
are given.

If you specify 12px, and I decide I need it bigger, I don't have many
options, other than totally overwriting your style sheet with my own (no
thanks!, and beyond most web users).  The good news is that because 12pt and
12px are so prolific on the web (and so evil in terms of accessability),
browser manufacturers are now beginning to make px and pt variable sizes as
well.

That is to say, in IE5 Mac, NN7 (and maybe 6), and some other browsers DO
LET YOU CHANGE THE FONT SIZE FRONT THE MENUS, selecting smaller, larger,
120%, or whatever.

The bad news is that the latest versions of IE6 (at least 3 months back when
I did some major CSS testing) did not let users do this.  It's well
documented, and people like Zeldman and A List Apart have spent months
campaigning for IE Win to match IE Mac and NN on this.

Here's a snippet from http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0702b.html

 To satisfy the demands of accessibility within the context of normative
 practices in commercial web design, IE/Win needs to do what IE/Mac did in
 March, 2000: implement Text Zoom, so visitors can resize any web text.
Will
 Microsoft ever make this change to IE/Win? We can only hope.

And this one from http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0502c.html

 Pixels solve these problems by delivering a guaranteed base size. But what
if
 that base size is too small for some readers?
 Opera has always offered its users the ability to easily scale any web
 page via Page Zoom. In January 2000, WaSPs Todd Fahrner and yours truly
 persuaded the appropriate engineers to add a similar feature (³Text Zoom²)
to
 IE5/Mac and Mozilla/Netscape 6. Thus nearly all current browsers allow
users
 to resize text set in pixels. If text is too small, hit a button, a
command
 key combination, or a drop-down menu, and voila! Instant legibility.
 Alas, MSIE for Windows does not allow web users to resize text set in
 pixels. We will keep pestering Microsoft to add that feature to its
Windows
 browser. Until they do, alternate style sheet widgets enable designers to
work
 around this thorny accessibility problem.

So, I stand partially corrected, the user CAN override ALL font size by
digging into the accessibility menus, but I seriously doubt many do.

If the latest versions of IE *DO* allow text zooming via the menus, again I
stand corrected, but there are millions of web users out there on IE5 and
IE6 without text zoom.  IMO, specifying a px or pt font size is taking away
the users right to choose what font size they 

Re: [PHP] Linux Question

2002-11-24 Thread Marek Kilimajer
You might solve this by providing different style sheet to on linux 
running browsers:
if(ereg('Linux',$_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'])) {
   echo 'link REL=StyleSheet HREF=linux.css TYPE=text/css';
} else {
   echo 'link REL=StyleSheet HREF=win.css TYPE=text/css';
}


conbud wrote:

Hey. This really isnt a PHP question. but what fonts do you reccomend using
so they look decent on linux. Mainly looking for a good font that will look
nice in MoZilla and Galeon. Almost all the fonts Ive used so far appear
really tiny or really bold and not very good to read.

-Lee



 



--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php