Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-22 Thread andreas
Once more, congratulation! This is awesome!
I really believe this is/will be huge.

1. kickstarter
Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen
oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by
creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a
bit complex for non-us people.
So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use
this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from
this.
Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people
this way?

2. PilMCU applications
Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm
personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing
something similiar to Intel NUC
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ?
So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine
little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack
security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp.
This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software
on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko
(https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/)

3. OpenSource legitimacy
About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got
it wrong:

With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with
a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that
the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code
and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler.

Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does
nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware).
And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so
isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and
software of this thing is doing, even when running?



 Good morning everyone!

 Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning
 weekend :)

 Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share
 my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table:
 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo
 2. Verilog source code availability


 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we  had a customer here
 before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i
 understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the
 early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the
 verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would
 be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option
 would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an
 FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA
 hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their
 inputs ;)

 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually
 there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too
 release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible,
 me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a
 robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the
 best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp
 community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the
 actual hardware is ready ;)

 Great weekend everyone, cheers!!

 BR,
 Geo





 On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz
 tjol...@gmail.com wrote:



 Christophe Gragnic
 christophegrag...@gmail.com writes:

 On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David
 david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote:
 If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll
 buy a few

 Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of
 those.»
 I'd buy a few too.

 Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give
 them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity
 to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a
 technical but an economic success too.

 You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public
 before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ...

 --
 cheers,
 Thorsten

 --
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe



-- 
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-22 Thread George Orais
Hi Sandeep and Andreas!

Thanks for your support :)

Andreas, thanks for your great inputs! It's indeed what we are looking forward. 
With everyone showing support and interest really is a motivation booster and 
now i'm preparing myself to next stage which is synthesizing the Verilog code 
to be used on actual FPGA board. I already found a good candidate for the FPGA 
board but if you want to see, these are my line-ups, sorry its in Chinese :(

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BR,
Geo



On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:33 PM, andr...@itship.ch andr...@itship.ch 
wrote:
 


Once more, congratulation! This is awesome!
I really believe this is/will be huge.

1. kickstarter
Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen
oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by
creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a
bit complex for non-us people.
So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use
this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from
this.
Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people
this way?

2. PilMCU applications
Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm
personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing
something similiar to Intel NUC
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ?
So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine
little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack
security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp.
This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software
on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko
(https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/)

3. OpenSource legitimacy
About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got
it wrong:

With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with
a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that
the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code
and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler.

Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does
nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware).
And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so
isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and
software of this thing is doing, even when running?



 Good morning everyone!

 Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning
 weekend :)

 Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share
 my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table:
 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo
 2. Verilog source code availability


 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we  had a customer here
 before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i
 understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the
 early 

Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-22 Thread Heow Goodman
If we're talking small potatoes, I'm sure there are a number of US
entities (ALU, LispNYC) that would happily front their EIN for a cool
kickstarter.

On 2014-9-22, 5:26 AM, andr...@itship.ch wrote:
 Once more, congratulation! This is awesome!
 I really believe this is/will be huge.
 
 1. kickstarter
 Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen
 oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by
 creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a
 bit complex for non-us people.
 So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use
 this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from
 this.
 Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people
 this way?
 
 2. PilMCU applications
 Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm
 personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing
 something similiar to Intel NUC
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ?
 So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine
 little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack
 security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp.
 This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software
 on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko
 (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/)
 
 3. OpenSource legitimacy
 About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got
 it wrong:
 
 With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with
 a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that
 the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code
 and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler.
 
 Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does
 nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware).
 And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so
 isn't this actually an instance were we can proof WHAT the hardware and
 software of this thing is doing, even when running?
 
 
 
 Good morning everyone!

 Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning
 weekend :)

 Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share
 my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table:
 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo
 2. Verilog source code availability


 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we  had a customer here
 before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i
 understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the
 early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the
 verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would
 be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option
 would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an
 FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA
 hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their
 inputs ;)

 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually
 there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too
 release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible,
 me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a
 robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the
 best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp
 community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the
 actual hardware is ready ;)

 Great weekend everyone, cheers!!

 BR,
 Geo





 On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz
 tjol...@gmail.com wrote:



 Christophe Gragnic
 christophegrag...@gmail.com writes:

 On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David
 david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote:
 If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll
 buy a few

 Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of
 those.»
 I'd buy a few too.

 Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give
 them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity
 to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a
 technical but an economic success too.

 You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public
 before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ...

 --
 cheers,
 Thorsten

 --
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

 
 

-- 
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RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-22 Thread Loyall, David
 From: Alexander Burger
 [...] And I can assure you that PicoLisp will never be a closed
 system.
 
 My personal opintion has always been that developments should be shared,
 and that the term intellectual property per se is unethical.

Well said.  If/when other implementations try to compete with you, this 
statement will give you a competitive advantage.

 [...] But I also need to survive economically,
 and it is really tough for a freelancer to do so.

I understand.  I thought you could release the design (even PCB layouts if you 
end up going that direction) and still sell the hardware.  Most people never 
manufacture their own hardware--that includes me.  But I'm a happier customer 
when I know that the product I'm purchasing has longevity--well known designs 
live longer.  I still have my c64 programmer's manual complete with circuit 
diagrams, which will come in handy if I want to figure out how to connect it to 
a modern display device!  Secret designs become black boxes once the parent 
company loses interest--no new display adapters (for example) and no hope of 
making your own.  It sounds like you know this well already. :)

 [...] 95 percent of the sources of the
 PilMCU are standard 64-bit PicoLisp.
 
I think I get it.  Emu is another arch, like ppc64 or x86-64.  Nice. :)

I think that this product will have the longevity I seek.  Carry on!

Cheers,
--Dave


Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-21 Thread Doug Snead
Oh boy! I've been thinking of something like this for a while. 

What is the low-hanging fruit here, in the sense of, what applications might we 
do faster/cheaper/better in hardware like this, than can be done otherwise?  

The idea of pilog in hardware excites me too ... maybe time to go back and dust 
off old 1980s Fifth Generation Computer Systems project application ideas - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer

Maybe some cool application that can be done better now with pilog in hardware 
than could be done otherwise.  Same for the old lisp-machine/Symbolics 
applications, I wonder if there is anything useful from Symbolics' experience, 
in retrospect?  

The Fifth Generation Computer project was considered a failure but seems to be 
relevant to to picolisp (and pilog) in hardware.  

It would be really cool if picolisp in hardware ends up accomplishing things 
that caused Symbolics Inc and The Fifth Generation Computer Systems project to 
stumble.   I expect this to be the case.

Doug





On Fri, 9/19/14, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote:

 Subject: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
 To: picolisp@software-lab.de
 Date: Friday, September 19, 2014, 4:39 AM
 
 Hello List,
 
 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip!
 :)
 
 We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project)
 and me.
 Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the
 changes and
 extensions to PicoLisp.
 
 
 PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in
 hardware. A
 truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine
 language and the
 operating system:
 
    * Memory management is trivial, just the
 Lisp heap and the stack
    * The built-in database is extended to
 hold a file system
    * One SSD per database file for mass
 storage
    * Processes run as tasks and coroutines
    * Events (timing and interrupts) via a
 'wait' instruction
    * Complex I/O protocols are delegated to
 peripheral chips
 
 The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor
 count and
 power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable
 for a later
 stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.
 
 At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and
 in an
 emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).
 
 
 How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to
 polish,
 manufacture and distribute the real thing.
 
 We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp
 Machine or a
 Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational
 institutions
 and/or robotics research?
 
 Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?
 
 
 For the fun of it, here is a sample session:
 
    $ make mcu    vvp -M.
 -mtty mcu   # Build and start Verilog engine
    : 
 
    $ make emu    ./emu
 ssd@ ssdA     # Or: Build and start the
 emulator
    : 
 
 Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil
 +'. The
 database is open on two image files for two SSD drives.
 Besides the
 normal, full DB functionality
 
    : (show *DB)
    {1} (7 . {17})
       T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
    - {1}
 
 you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are
 maintained
 in external symbols:
 
    : (dir)
    - (lib.l lib/)
 
    : (dir lib)
    - (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l
 pilog.l sq.l)
 
    : (in lib/db.l (read))
    - (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs
 1)))
 
    : (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello
 world))
    - Hello world
    : (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
    - (H e l l o   w o r
 l d)
 
    : (dir foo/bar)
    - (mumble.l)
 
    : (cd foo/bar)
    - foo/bar/
    : (dir)
    - (mumble.l)
 
    : (pwd)
    - foo/bar/
 
 Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:
 
    : (scan)
    foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
    lib.l {2}
    lib/btree.l {64}
    lib/db.l {105}
    lib/dbg.l {20}
    lib/misc.l {56}
    lib/pilog.l {146}
    lib/sq.l {166}
 
 They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.
 
    (load '{2})
 
 is equivalent to
 
    (load lib.l)
 
 The values of these symbols hold the file size:
 
    : (show '{2})
    {2} 12401
    - {2}
 
 They should not have properties, and store the raw file data
 invisibly
 in dynamically maintained DB blocks.
 
 The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)
 
 ♪♫ Alex
 -- 
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

--
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-20 Thread Raman Gopalan
Dear Alex,

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

Fantastic! This is truly amazing. Congratulations!

R

On 19 September 2014 17:09, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote:

 Hello List,

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

 We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me.
 Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and
 extensions to PicoLisp.


 PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A
 truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the
 operating system:

* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack
* The built-in database is extended to hold a file system
* One SSD per database file for mass storage
* Processes run as tasks and coroutines
* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction
* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips

 The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and
 power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later
 stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.

 At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an
 emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).


 How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
 manufacture and distribute the real thing.

 We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
 Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
 and/or robotics research?

 Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?


 For the fun of it, here is a sample session:

$ make mcuvvp -M. -mtty mcu   # Build and start Verilog engine
:

$ make emu./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator
:

 Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The
 database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the
 normal, full DB functionality

: (show *DB)
{1} (7 . {17})
   T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
- {1}

 you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained
 in external symbols:

: (dir)
- (lib.l lib/)

: (dir lib)
- (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l pilog.l sq.l)

: (in lib/db.l (read))
- (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1)))

: (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello world))
- Hello world
: (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
- (H e l l o   w o r l d)

: (dir foo/bar)
- (mumble.l)

: (cd foo/bar)
- foo/bar/
: (dir)
- (mumble.l)

: (pwd)
- foo/bar/

 Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:

: (scan)
foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
lib.l {2}
lib/btree.l {64}
lib/db.l {105}
lib/dbg.l {20}
lib/misc.l {56}
lib/pilog.l {146}
lib/sq.l {166}

 They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.

(load '{2})

 is equivalent to

(load lib.l)

 The values of these symbols hold the file size:

: (show '{2})
{2} 12401
- {2}

 They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly
 in dynamically maintained DB blocks.

 The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)

 ♪♫ Alex
 --
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe



Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-20 Thread Alexander Burger
Hi Loyall,

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 08:53:00PM +, Loyall, David wrote:
  From: Thorsten Jolitz
   It's a Lisp machine.  It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with
   closed design). :)
  
  I'm sure its technical design is not crippled at all.
 
 I am new to your mailing list and as such I'd like to listen more than
 I speak. But please don't speak for me. :) It should be clear that my
 implication was that *any* closed-source design is limited. I'll say it
 differently to be clear: open designs always have an advantage in the
 'survival of the fittest' game.

I agree with you. And I can assure you that PicoLisp will never be a
closed system.

My personal opintion has always been that developments should be shared,
and that the term intellectual property per se is unethical.

But what should be honoured is the effort and labor developers put into
their work. I'm working on PicoLisp since 26 years. It generated my
income, for the projects I developed with it. But a lot more time than
working for commercial projects I've put into the development of
PicoLisp itself, and I *never* got any financial reward for it (except
once or a single bitcoin donation a while back, thanks again Jon!).

I enjoyed it, and I did it for the fun of it. And of course because it
made my project work so much more efficient. But I also need to survive
economically, and it is really tough for a freelancer to do so.

In that regard, the PilMCU project is a job for us. We have put a lot
of time into it, and we'll have to spend more time on it. I don't want
money for the system or the sources, but just a reward for our time.
That's why we need an investor.

But if we publish everything we did for PilMCU so far, do you think
anybody will care? No. Instead, we should build a useful product from
it, and get a fair share. After that, I'm ready to publish it freely,
as everything else of PicoLisp.


BTW, all involved details are already freely available. PilMCU just
modified and rounded up what is there. Just take a closer look; the
PicoLisp language and virtual machine (as of doc64/asm in the
distribution).

Specifically, it is no closed-source design. 95 percent of the sources
of the PilMCU are standard 64-bit PicoLisp. We directly compile slightly
modified versions of what you find in src64/*.l to Verilog.

We just put in a lot of work and time to map it logically to a hardware
implementation, and prepare to produce it physically.

♪♫ Alex
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-20 Thread Jakob Eriksson


On September 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote:
 Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov
 writes:

  The Internet would like to run this locally.  Would you post the
  verilog source and build files?  Or a link to a repository?

 I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull
 kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it
 instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files?

+1

regards,
Jakob
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-20 Thread Sandeep Puri
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Jakob Eriksson ja...@aurorasystems.eu
wrote:



 On September 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov
  writes:
 
   The Internet would like to run this locally.  Would you post the
   verilog source and build files?  Or a link to a repository?
 
  I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull
  kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it
  instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files?

 +1

 regards,
 Jakob
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been a lurker in the list since it's beginnings..

+1


Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alexander Burger
Hello List,

we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me.
Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and
extensions to PicoLisp.


PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A
truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the
operating system:

   * Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack
   * The built-in database is extended to hold a file system
   * One SSD per database file for mass storage
   * Processes run as tasks and coroutines
   * Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction
   * Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips

The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and
power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later
stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.

At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an
emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).


How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
manufacture and distribute the real thing.

We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
and/or robotics research?

Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?


For the fun of it, here is a sample session:

   $ make mcuvvp -M. -mtty mcu   # Build and start Verilog engine
   : 

   $ make emu./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator
   : 

Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The
database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the
normal, full DB functionality

   : (show *DB)
   {1} (7 . {17})
  T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
   - {1}

you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained
in external symbols:

   : (dir)
   - (lib.l lib/)

   : (dir lib)
   - (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l pilog.l sq.l)

   : (in lib/db.l (read))
   - (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1)))

   : (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello world))
   - Hello world
   : (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
   - (H e l l o   w o r l d)

   : (dir foo/bar)
   - (mumble.l)

   : (cd foo/bar)
   - foo/bar/
   : (dir)
   - (mumble.l)

   : (pwd)
   - foo/bar/

Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:

   : (scan)
   foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
   lib.l {2}
   lib/btree.l {64}
   lib/db.l {105}
   lib/dbg.l {20}
   lib/misc.l {56}
   lib/pilog.l {146}
   lib/sq.l {166}

They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.

   (load '{2})

is equivalent to

   (load lib.l)

The values of these symbols hold the file size:

   : (show '{2})
   {2} 12401
   - {2}

They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly
in dynamically maintained DB blocks.

The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)

♪♫ Alex
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Jakob Eriksson
Fantastic, this is truly great. I have been hoping for years
someone would pull this off.

Congratulations.


best regards,
Jakob


On September 19, 2014 at 1:39 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote:
 Hello List,

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

 We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me.
 Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and
 extensions to PicoLisp.


 PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A
 truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the
 operating system:

* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack
* The built-in database is extended to hold a file system
* One SSD per database file for mass storage
* Processes run as tasks and coroutines
* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction
* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips

 The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and
 power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later
 stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.

 At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an
 emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).


 How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
 manufacture and distribute the real thing.

 We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
 Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
 and/or robotics research?

 Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?


 For the fun of it, here is a sample session:

$ make mcuvvp -M. -mtty mcu   # Build and start Verilog engine
:

$ make emu./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator
:

 Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The
 database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the
 normal, full DB functionality

: (show *DB)
{1} (7 . {17})
   T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
- {1}

 you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained
 in external symbols:

: (dir)
- (lib.l lib/)

: (dir lib)
- (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l pilog.l sq.l)

: (in lib/db.l (read))
- (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1)))

: (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello world))
- Hello world
: (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
- (H e l l o   w o r l d)

: (dir foo/bar)
- (mumble.l)

: (cd foo/bar)
- foo/bar/
: (dir)
- (mumble.l)

: (pwd)
- foo/bar/

 Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:

: (scan)
foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
lib.l {2}
lib/btree.l {64}
lib/db.l {105}
lib/dbg.l {20}
lib/misc.l {56}
lib/pilog.l {146}
lib/sq.l {166}

 They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.

(load '{2})

 is equivalent to

(load lib.l)

 The values of these symbols hold the file size:

: (show '{2})
{2} 12401
- {2}

 They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly
 in dynamically maintained DB blocks.

 The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)

 ♪♫ Alex
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alabhya Singh
Congratulations to both of you on this important feat!

Funds should flow in when picoLisp OS is seen running with all virtues, on 
existing hardware.

Looking for introductory level material on this to present to educational 
institutions, for them to realize value of this project.



Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alexander Burger
Hi Alabhya,

 Congratulations to both of you on this important feat!

Thanks!

 Funds should flow in when picoLisp OS is seen running with all
 virtues, on existing hardware.

Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware
project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard
OS.

♪♫ Alex
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Joe Bogner
Hi Alex - congratulations... It's really inspiring to see picoLisp keep
improving and branching out. It really has staying power

This might be off base, but is it within the realm of possibility to
run PilMCU on a raspberry pi now or in the future? That's an accessible
piece of hardware that many people already have (myself included). These
people may also be willing to fund the work

My pi has been sitting powered off largely since I bought it. This could
reinvigorate it.

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de
wrote:

 Hi Alabhya,

  Congratulations to both of you on this important feat!

 Thanks!

  Funds should flow in when picoLisp OS is seen running with all
  virtues, on existing hardware.

 Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware
 project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard
 OS.

 ♪♫ Alex
 --
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Thorsten Jolitz
Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:

Hi Alex (and George),

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

though not really a hardware/low-level guy, I think this sounds pretty
exiting!

 How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
 manufacture and distribute the real thing.

I suggest to proceed in 2 steps:

 1. make me a team member

 2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story

;-)

 We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
 Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
 and/or robotics research?

 Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?

I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my
neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMCU's USPs, I
could try to make first contacts if that helps. 

Not sure what would be a realistic business idea, but maybe start by
figuring out where the real money is nowadays (energy sector,
automotive sector, mobile-phones etc) and then think about a possible niche to
fill. 

Makes things much easier when potential clients drown in profits ;)

If you find out e.g. how an Embedded Lisp Machine can be really useful
for the car industry, we will all have PicoLisp jobs pretty soon!

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Rick Lyman
How about an indiegogo or kickstarter project for a FPGA board that would
plug into this:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-development-kit/

or this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13097

or this:

http://www.mouser.com/new/Freescale-Semiconductor/freescale_tower_system/?gclid=CjwKEAjwqO-gBRCEyp2Fufm0lBASJAAZrX-5AWIHEXmSxSISYGndWQZ6YpVpHo0i65Tj9FJb43o4whoCY__w_wcB

or 

-rl

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de
wrote:

 Hello List,

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

 We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me.
 Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and
 extensions to PicoLisp.


 PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A
 truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the
 operating system:

* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack
* The built-in database is extended to hold a file system
* One SSD per database file for mass storage
* Processes run as tasks and coroutines
* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction
* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips

 The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and
 power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later
 stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.

 At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an
 emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).


 How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
 manufacture and distribute the real thing.

 We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
 Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
 and/or robotics research?

 Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?


 For the fun of it, here is a sample session:

$ make mcuvvp -M. -mtty mcu   # Build and start Verilog engine
:

$ make emu./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator
:

 Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The
 database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the
 normal, full DB functionality

: (show *DB)
{1} (7 . {17})
   T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
- {1}

 you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained
 in external symbols:

: (dir)
- (lib.l lib/)

: (dir lib)
- (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l pilog.l sq.l)

: (in lib/db.l (read))
- (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1)))

: (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello world))
- Hello world
: (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
- (H e l l o   w o r l d)

: (dir foo/bar)
- (mumble.l)

: (cd foo/bar)
- foo/bar/
: (dir)
- (mumble.l)

: (pwd)
- foo/bar/

 Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:

: (scan)
foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
lib.l {2}
lib/btree.l {64}
lib/db.l {105}
lib/dbg.l {20}
lib/misc.l {56}
lib/pilog.l {146}
lib/sq.l {166}

 They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.

(load '{2})

 is equivalent to

(load lib.l)

 The values of these symbols hold the file size:

: (show '{2})
{2} 12401
- {2}

 They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly
 in dynamically maintained DB blocks.

 The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)

 ♪♫ Alex
 --
 UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe



Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Mattias Sundblad
Great news and good work! Congratulations!

I second what Joe wrote a bit earlier, it truly is inspiring to see
PicoLisp improve.

best regards,
Mattias

On 19 September 2014 15:24, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:

 Hi Alex (and George),

  we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

 though not really a hardware/low-level guy, I think this sounds pretty
 exiting!

  How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
  manufacture and distribute the real thing.

 I suggest to proceed in 2 steps:

  1. make me a team member

  2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story

 ;-)

  We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
  Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
  and/or robotics research?
 
  Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?

 I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my
 neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMCU's USPs, I
 could try to make first contacts if that helps.

 Not sure what would be a realistic business idea, but maybe start by
 figuring out where the real money is nowadays (energy sector,
 automotive sector, mobile-phones etc) and then think about a possible
 niche to
 fill.

 Makes things much easier when potential clients drown in profits ;)

 If you find out e.g. how an Embedded Lisp Machine can be really useful
 for the car industry, we will all have PicoLisp jobs pretty soon!

 --
 cheers,
 Thorsten

 --
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alabhya Singh
Both Jakob and Alex are right!

1. PicoLisp has to infiltrate existing real metal hardware to 
demonstrate/appeal to less techy, in general people with VC.

2. Comparative benchmarks on same underlying hardware will be helpful to 
showcase.



Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alexander Burger
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 03:25:09PM +0200, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
   Funds should flow in when picoLisp OS is seen running with all
   virtues, on existing hardware.
 
  Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware
  project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard
  OS.
 
 I read that as, when PicoLisp is seen running on _actual_ hardware.
 (Not currently existing.)

Oops, right! I partly misunderstood Alabhya's statement :)

 Was I right Alabhya?

♪♫ Alex
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread George Orais
Hi Alex!

First of all, thanks for the wonderful tool PicoLisp and also for giving me 
this opportunity to work with you on this exciting project :)
Please let me share some of the exciting feature that we can provide especially 
on the embedded perspective.



Hi Everyone!

I am Geo and i'm currently working here in Shenzhen China.

As you can see the announcement from Alex, i would also like to point some cool 
features that hopefully could attract the crowd :)
Please excuse my English for it is not may native language so i just write it 
on bullet-point format:
* A 64bit MCU
* An MCU which uses Lisp as its low-level language
* An MCU that you can program thru UART, LAN or any means as long as you can 
access the pilMCU core. No need proprietary programmer/debugger used by today's 
MCU like JTAG
* A Lisp machine kit that utilize today's technology (Micro SD, DDR, PS2, I2C, 
SPI) and because of I2C and SPI we can easily add USB, WIFI and even Bluetooth 
;)
* A system that is running Lisp (PicoLisp) on bare-metal, meaning the 
user/developer can directly interact/develop with the hardware using Lisp code 
without the restriction provided by today's host OS like Windows, Linux, or 
Android?
* A new style of programming MCU which would be an interactive way, no more 
compiling then debugging :)

And i think there is still many more exciting feature that we still can add 
with your help and feedback's :)

As of the moment please let me provide my insight on these points that i 
recently read:
1. when PicoLisp is seen running on _actual_ hardware.
2. to run PilMCU on a raspberry pi now or in the future
3. the real money is nowadays
4. how an Embedded Lisp Machine can be really useful



1. For I am doing the Verilog part, as of the moment pilMCU is running under 
Icarus Verilog Simulator, but soon i will get and off-the-shelve FPGA kits with 
complete peripherals and try to shoehorn pilMCU to that existing board. It wont 
affect the core for i abstracted the interfaces so that it would be easy for me 
to port the core on any FPGA boards. This is proof of concept stage, and once 
we have a fully tested prototype, our ultimate goal is to upgrade into ASIC 
chip or even into a full chip fabrication, i know this is still far but with 
everyone's help i think we can do this ;)

2. Actually this is what Alex told me when i proposed to him this project. Yes 
i agree about the RPi is today's trend, even the TI BBoard is also cool to run 
PicoLisp.. and even more i even have the XMOS multi-core MCU board which i was 
tempted to do some Lisp on it. But i really feel that it is the right time to 
express the Lisp way on its own hardware. Today's prices per components is far 
low than the time Lisp machines was booming, so i think why not try to make one 
again and see the difference? Lets not easily get intimidated with those 
existing kits, i know its hard to compete with them, but we are not here to 
compete, but we are here to show a different and more cooler alternative to run 
Lisp :)

3. Base from my daily work here, i can say that real money these days are 
anything related to the smartphone which is either the smartwatch or health 
bands, im currenly working on both products :) and the key ingredients are 
wireless connectivity which is BLE or NFC.. and from what i heard is the future 
is to make all devices and appliances to be connected to the internet? so RF 
chip makers are now trying to make a low power WIFI chip.. but anyway those are 
just rumours, lets just see :) but back with pilMCU, i think this would 
certainly attract mostly on the robotics field? something like the Lego 
Mindstorm? or as what Alex mention maybe at first will be an educational kit 
for students and hobbyist? but i know its still early to speculate :) so lets 
just build the prototype first and from there will see how the crowd reacts ;)

4. I think this is already answered from above statements :) but if we really 
need a something that can be our punch line of making this project, then how 
about this:
Embedded Lisp Machine A machine that is designed based from a past but robust 
principle using with today's present technology to produce a better future 
system.. sorry i think it sounds ridiculous but for now, just lets try the 
water with one feet first :)


Sorry for this long post guys, but thanks for your feedback's, hoping to hear 
more suggestions on how we can build a better package of this pilMCU kit that 
we all can enjoy in the future. cheers!!



Bis dann,
Geo









On Friday, September 19, 2014 10:28 PM, Mattias Sundblad 
mattias@gmail.com wrote:
 


Great news and good work! Congratulations!

I second what Joe wrote a bit earlier, it truly is inspiring to see PicoLisp 
improve.

best regards,
Mattias



On 19 September 2014 15:24, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote:

Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:

Hi Alex (and George),

 we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)

though 

RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Loyall, David
 From: picolisp@software-lab.de [mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de] On Behalf Of 
 George Orais
 [...] pilMCU is running under Icarus Verilog Simulator [...]

Nice.  

The Internet would like to run this locally.  Would you post the verilog source 
and build files?  Or a link to a repository?

Cheers,
--Dave
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Thorsten Jolitz
Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov
writes:

 The Internet would like to run this locally.  Would you post the
 verilog source and build files?  Or a link to a repository?

I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull
kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it
instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files?

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Christophe Gragnic
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Loyall, David
david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote:

 The Internet would like to run this locally.

Yes !

 Would you post the verilog source and build files?  Or a link to a repository?

Now PicoLisp should not be jealous of BF anymore:
https://github.com/briandef/bf16
(Quite funny that Alex's announce arrived a day or two after I was
aware of bf16.)

I had some questions but I see a mail from George…


chri

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RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Loyall, David
 From: Thorsten Jolitz
 Loyall, David writes:
  The Internet would like to run this locally.  Would you post the
  verilog source and build files?  Or a link to a repository?
 
 I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull kickstarter
 project, so why not try to build a business idea around it instead of just 
 giving
 away the verilog source and build files?

It's a Lisp machine.  It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with closed 
design). :)

It still needs additional development, right Geo and Alex?  Many hands make 
light work.

Have you seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8340283 ?  Folks are looking 
for the source already.

You can still make money on open source hardware.  In fact, that's a new 
trend.  https://www.google.com/search?q=open+hardware

Cheers,
--Dave
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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread rand
This has made it to #4 on Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com). That’s 
pretty impressive, Alex!

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Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)

2014-09-19 Thread Alexander Burger
Hi Thorsten,

 I suggest to proceed in 2 steps:
  1. make me a team member
  2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story
 ;-)

Great! That's the way to go! ;-)


 I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my
 neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMC