Re: Yet Another Emacs PicoLisp Mode - hybrid

[Thorsten Jolitz]

Grant Shangreaux 
writes:

Hello Grant,

> I would be happy to make
> a pull-request into the tj64 version if it is welcome, and Alexis I
> would be interested in helping to improve your version as well
> (especially since it is the one listed on MELPA).
>
> Would be glad to hear from Emacs users on the list, I know these threads
> pop up time to time, i've been trying to catch up :) !

go ahead an send me a pull request, from what I read in the thread I
conclude that its just merging tested code from another version into the
one I maintain on github, and this merge is already tested by you (and
others) so I can accept the PR without extra testing?

BTW
It would be nice to have even one more PicoLisp mode for Emacs!
There is this new concept of LSP out there now (Language Server
Protocol), with the basic idea that every language implements the server
side once, and every editor implements the client side once (in a
generic way). Then, a new editor mode for a language is just an adoption
of the LSP client of that editior for that specific language. And every editor
with an LSP client implementaton can easily offer a mode for a language that
has its LSP server implementation.

>From a PicoLisp point of view there are two pretty cool options here, I
think:

1. implement a Picolisp LSP Server implementation, enabling all those
editors out there to have their LSP PicoLisp modes (Emacs e.g. already
has two competing LSP client implementations and several new or
rewritten LSP major modes afaik)

2. implement a Vip LSP Client, thereby enabling language modes in Vip
for all that (growing numbers) of languages with LSP server
implemenations.

This is from Microsoft, but not evil at all, rather seems like the
future of editing modes. Maybe somebody finds this interesting too ... ;-)  

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten


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Re: Yet Another Emacs PicoLisp Mode - hybrid

[rick]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 19:45 -04:00, Grant Shangreaux wrote:
> Hello list,

Hello, Grant!

> I found that I liked features of both tj64 and Alexis' version, so I
> decided to make a hybrid of the two.  This is little more than
> copy-pasting the documentation features from Alexis' version into
> the base of the tj64 version.

Great choices!  I too like the doc facilities in Alexis's version, and
I can't live without features from tj64's version like sending
expressions to the REPL to be evaluated (e.g. C-x C-e (eval last
sexpr)) and full integration with Org Babel.

> I don't want to muddy the waters further by creating yet another
> picolisp-mode ...

No worries.  I like the variety.  Variation breeds innovation.  (Glad,
for instance, that Alex was not worried about writing "yet another
lisp" -- and we all benefit!)

> I would be happy to make a pull-request into the tj64 version if it
> is welcome, and Alexis I would be interested in helping to improve
> your version as well (especially since it is the one listed on
> MELPA).

Excellent!  I hope they take you up on your offer.

Keep up the good work.  I may be your next customer, when I get back
from my business travel and settle back in.

Thanks!  Best, Rick

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Yet Another Emacs PicoLisp Mode - hybrid

[Grant Shangreaux]

Hello list,

I am a long time Emacs user, and currently a Spacemacs user as well. Spacemacs 
is lacking a configuration layer for PicoLisp and I decided to go ahead and put 
one together.  While doing so, I was trying to decide which version of 
`picolisp-mode` to use. I've tried the packaged .el files, tj64's version, and 
Alexis' version as well. I found that I liked features of both tj64 and Alexis' 
version, so I decided to make a hybrid of the two.  This is little more than 
copy-pasting the documentation features from Alexis' version into the base of 
the tj64 version.  However, it works (with a few things to smooth out), and I 
find that I now have the features I was hoping to include in the Spacemacs 
layer.

https://github.com/gcentauri/hybrid-picolisp-mode
https://github.com/gcentauri/picolisp-layer

I don't want to muddy the waters further by creating yet another picolisp-mode, 
but this is what I wanted to use personally, and in the interest of the 
community I thought I'd share. I would be happy to make a pull-request into the 
tj64 version if it is welcome, and Alexis I would be interested in helping to 
improve your version as well (especially since it is the one listed on MELPA).

Would be glad to hear from Emacs users on the list, I know these threads pop up 
time to time, i've been trying to catch up :) !

-grant

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

Re: picolisp-mode

[Kan-Ru Chen]

Hi there,

I'm not aware this discussion is also happening on the list. Although I'm 
subscribed to the list but I only check it infrequently. Please feel free to CC 
me when there are Debian package related issues : -)

Myself is also a Emacs user so naturally when I packaged picolisp I also 
pre-installed picolisp-mode that comes with the distribution. It's a small file 
but provides good experience for first-time picolisp user. I thought not a 
small portion of picolisp users may also be Emacs users, but I could be wrong ;)

 From what I read so far, it seems there are two or three different picolisp 
major modes?

1. https://github.com/tj64/picolisp-mode
2. https://github.com/flexibeast/picolisp-mode (the melpa)
3. The one comes with the Distribution (the official)

The second one is in melpa and seems providing more features?

Maybe what I can do here are

1. Try to make the official one installed as elpa package thus discoverable in 
`list-packages`
2. If the melpa one can co-exist with the official one, I can also package it 
as `elpa-picolisp-mode` and recommend it from picolisp package. But one of them 
may have to be renamed.

Thoughts?

Kanru

PS. you can also open a bug to the Debian package by running `reportbug 
picolisp`, I'll triage it periodically. 

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019, at 12:46 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> Just for the list info, here is the reply I got from the Debian 
> packager. The good news is that thanks to his work we're going to have 
> even better integration on Debian :)
> 
> JC
> 
> > Begin forwarded message:
> > 
> > From: "Kan-Ru Chen" 
> > Subject: Re: picolisp on Debian (raspbian)
> > Date: January 25, 2019 0:00:08 JST
> > To: "Jean-Christophe Helary" 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > a- I can see the melpa picolisp-mode fine. I'm not sure what you mean 
> > "invisible"?
> > 
> > b- No, the paredit patch is not applied.
> > 
> > c- picolisp-wiki-mode.el is installed to the 
> > /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/picolisp dir but since we didn't fine a autoload 
> > and auto-mode-alist it does not get automatically loaded.
> > 
> > I have added autoload for picolisp-wiki-mode.el and fixed a 
> > inferior-picolisp loading issue. It will be released to next Debian package 
> > update.
> > 
> > Thanks for reporting bugs!
> > 
> > Kanru
> > 
> > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, at 3:38 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> >> Sorry to bother you again.
> >> 
> >> There are some issues with the picolisp package, and I wondered if you 
> >> could help me understand how to fix them.
> >> 
> >> 1) the picolisp distribution includes 3 emacs lisp files and 1 patch to 
> >> paredit.el:
> >> 
> >> • picolisp.el
> >> • picolisp-wiki-mode.el
> >> • inferior-picolisp.el
> >> • paredit.el.diff
> >> 
> >> 2) picolisp.el seems to be installed with picolisp on Debian systems
> >> 
> >> 3) there is a separate melpa picolisp-mode that is not visible when 
> >> listing the emacs packages available on melpa
> >> 
> >> My questions are:
> >> 
> >> a- Do you know why is that melpa picolisp mode invisible? Is it because 
> >> it shares the name with the picolisp distribution name?
> >> 
> >> b- is the paredit.el patch applied in Debian when installing picolisp ?
> >> 
> >> c- It doesn't look like picolisp-wiki-mode.el is available when listing 
> >> the emacs packages, it is installed somewhere and launched with a 
> >> separate hook?
> >> 
> >> Thank you in advance.
> >> 
> >> Jean-Christophe 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 22:22, Kan-Ru Chen  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Hi,
> >>> 
> >>> I'm glad to know the picolisp package works on raspbian :-)
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Kanru
> >>> 
> >>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> >>>> Apologies for the mail. I realized that the picolisp-mode that is 
> >>>> available on debian comes included in the picolisp package. Besides, 
> >>>> unlike what I wrote, it is the same as the code on github.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Thank you for packaging picolisp for Debian !
> >>>> 
> >>>> Jean-Christophe 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 20:03, Jean-Christophe Helary 
> >>>>>  wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> 
> >&

Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Just for the list info, here is the reply I got from the Debian packager. The 
good news is that thanks to his work we're going to have even better 
integration on Debian :)

JC

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "Kan-Ru Chen" 
> Subject: Re: picolisp on Debian (raspbian)
> Date: January 25, 2019 0:00:08 JST
> To: "Jean-Christophe Helary" 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> a- I can see the melpa picolisp-mode fine. I'm not sure what you mean 
> "invisible"?
> 
> b- No, the paredit patch is not applied.
> 
> c- picolisp-wiki-mode.el is installed to the 
> /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/picolisp dir but since we didn't fine a autoload 
> and auto-mode-alist it does not get automatically loaded.
> 
> I have added autoload for picolisp-wiki-mode.el and fixed a inferior-picolisp 
> loading issue. It will be released to next Debian package update.
> 
> Thanks for reporting bugs!
> 
> Kanru
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, at 3:38 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> Sorry to bother you again.
>> 
>> There are some issues with the picolisp package, and I wondered if you 
>> could help me understand how to fix them.
>> 
>> 1) the picolisp distribution includes 3 emacs lisp files and 1 patch to 
>> paredit.el:
>> 
>> • picolisp.el
>> • picolisp-wiki-mode.el
>> • inferior-picolisp.el
>> • paredit.el.diff
>> 
>> 2) picolisp.el seems to be installed with picolisp on Debian systems
>> 
>> 3) there is a separate melpa picolisp-mode that is not visible when 
>> listing the emacs packages available on melpa
>> 
>> My questions are:
>> 
>> a- Do you know why is that melpa picolisp mode invisible? Is it because 
>> it shares the name with the picolisp distribution name?
>> 
>> b- is the paredit.el patch applied in Debian when installing picolisp ?
>> 
>> c- It doesn't look like picolisp-wiki-mode.el is available when listing 
>> the emacs packages, it is installed somewhere and launched with a 
>> separate hook?
>> 
>> Thank you in advance.
>> 
>> Jean-Christophe 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 22:22, Kan-Ru Chen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I'm glad to know the picolisp package works on raspbian :-)
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kanru
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>>>> Apologies for the mail. I realized that the picolisp-mode that is 
>>>> available on debian comes included in the picolisp package. Besides, 
>>>> unlike what I wrote, it is the same as the code on github.
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for packaging picolisp for Debian !
>>>> 
>>>> Jean-Christophe 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 20:03, Jean-Christophe Helary  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> 
>>>>> It looks like picolisp on raspbian installs a picolisp major mode for 
>>>>> emacs that I could trace to an old version of this package that is 
>>>>> already pretty old (6 years, with a slight code modification 2 years ago):
>>>>> https://github.com/tj64/picolisp-mode
>>>>> 
>>>>> It looks like the package in debian is outdated though.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, there is a much more recent picolisp major mode in Melpa that also 
>>>>> adds access to the documentation, etc.
>>>>> https://github.com/flexibeast/picolisp-mode
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't seem to find how emacs gets that old picolisp-mode in raspbian, 
>>>>> would you have an idea ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you in advance
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jean-Christophe Helary
>>>>> ---
>>>>> http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


> On Jan 24, 2019, at 1:06, Jean-Christophe Helary  wrote:
> 
> Rick,
> 
> Thank you again for your multiple thoughtful and detailed replies :)
> 
>> On Jan 23, 2019, at 17:09, r...@tamos.net wrote:
>> 
>>> The discussion is not about changing anything for people who already use 
>>> one or the other mode. It is about proposing something easy to use *and* 
>>> not confusing to new comers.
>> 
>> OK.  I understand.  There were also some specific questions or issues that 
>> you noticed (e.g., on Debian-like systems) in another email you sent which I 
>> took to mean that you did not quite understand how emacs
>> packages 

Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Rick,

Thank you again for your multiple thoughtful and detailed replies :)

> On Jan 23, 2019, at 17:09, r...@tamos.net wrote:
> 
>> The discussion is not about changing anything for people who already use one 
>> or the other mode. It is about proposing something easy to use *and* not 
>> confusing to new comers.
> 
> OK.  I understand.  There were also some specific questions or issues that 
> you noticed (e.g., on Debian-like systems) in another email you sent which I 
> took to mean that you did not quite understand how emacs
> packages can be installed and how emacs can (maybe, should) be configured.  I 
> tried to answer that in another email I just sent.
> Sorry, if I was off base -- was just trying to help.  If you already 
> understand all that; then, fantastic.

I'm definitely not a fluent emacs user. I can find my way and when I'm lost 
check the documentation. So I am aware of the issues you mentioned and I do 
sometimes manually install emacs packages, but most of the time I just use 
gnu/elpa/melpa.

>> Then there is literally a ressource visibility issue at least on Debian. 
>> This one is not easy to fix and requires information from the Debian 
>> packager. I can ask for more information and see if there is a relatively 
>> easy fix.
> 
> The "resource visibility issue" that you described (in your other email) 
> sounded like a misconfigured emacs setup to me.  But I'm sure you will look 
> into that to rule out that possibility.  Thank you for looking into potential 
> Debian issues.

I'll check that but my setting is an "out of the flashed box" Raspbian machine 
and the only thing that I had added was a reference to the Melpa archive to be 
able to install some packages.

Not only couldn't I find Alexis' package, but the picolisp menu failed when I 
tried to run an inferior lisp on my buffer. I had to run 
"run-inferior-picolisp" (function name from memory) manually to make it run.

That's when I started to check the various versions and found all the things 
I'm discussing now.

I'm replying to your other mail here so as to put all the information in one 
place:

>> 1) On debian and related distributions, the picolisp official mode is 
>> installed by default
> 
> Just to be clear, there is no "picolisp official mode"

Ok, but let's just call it that way for the purpose of the discussion :)

> It should probably stay there solely because it is not hosted (in a
> permanent sense) anywhere else AFAIK.

In fact it also is hosted on Github but it looks like the hosted version and 
the offline versions are slightly different (my understanding from Alexis' 
earlier mail, I did not diff the files).

>> and in fact, there is no mention of that mode in the emacs package
>> manager when you look for it,
> 
> When you say "there is no mention of that mode in the emacs package manager 
> when you look for it", if you mean that you can't see it when you look at the 
> list generated by `package-list-packages`

That's correct.

> Well, if you load a picolisp source file (*.l) and you are in some 
> picolisp-mode and you didn't cause that to happen by purposefully setting 
> that up in your emacs configuration, then that is simply due
> to dumb luck.

Not dumb luck, but Debian packaging :) My understanding is that when you select 
picolisp to be installed in apt then it automatically installs that picolisp 
mode. I'm checking that with the Debian packager, but I suspect he's trying to 
install everything that is available in the "official picolisp distribution" 
which does include that picolisp mode.

>> 2) Similarly, on Debian, the alternative picolisp mode from Alexis
>> is not listed in the emacs package manager.
> 
> If "listed in the emacs package manager" means that you can see it in 
> package-list-packages` output buffer, then *not* seeing it there means that 
> your emacs configuration is *not* pointing to the melpa service -- check the 
> `package-archives` variable -- (because we know that
> Alexis's package is registered on melpa) or your network connex to melpa was 
> temporarily down.
> 
> For instance, I can see it here now in my package-list-packages output:

Can you confirm that you're checking that on Debian ? The output is different 
on Raspbian (as far as I can tell, and I have other melpa packages visible). I 
don't have the box with me so I'll confirm later.

> I suppose we could mention that there are a few choices of emacs major modes 
> for picolisp programming and even a rundown of their functionality / 
> capability.  Sounds good. Please do that if you have
> time.  Thanks.

I did talk about the "official" character of that mode because it is documented 
on the wiki do

Re: picolisp-mode

[rick]

Hi Jean-Christophe!

Sorry, I forgot to address the other things you mentioned.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 02:33 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> The discussion is not about changing anything for people who already
> use one or the other mode. It is about proposing something easy to
> use *and* not confusing to new comers.

OK.  I understand.  There were also some specific questions or issues
that you noticed (e.g., on Debian-like systems) in another email you
sent which I took to mean that you did not quite understand how emacs
packages can be installed and how emacs can (maybe, should) be
configured.  I tried to answer that in another email I just sent.
Sorry, if I was off base -- was just trying to help.  If you already
understand all that; then, fantastic.

> Besides for the merits of the various modes and the merits of having
> multiple modes, I think there is a big documentation issue. It is
> easily fixable and since that information is on the wiki that's
> something I can fix.

That's great.  Always strike when the motivation is there, I always
say!  Glad you are thinking about that.

> Then there is literally a ressource visibility issue at least on
> Debian. This one is not easy to fix and requires information from
> the Debian packager. I can ask for more information and see if there
> is a relatively easy fix.

The "resource visibility issue" that you described (in your other
email) sounded like a misconfigured emacs setup to me.  But I'm sure
you will look into that to rule out that possibility.  Thank you for
looking into potential Debian issues.

Cheers, --Rick


On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 03:01 -05:00, r...@tamos.net wrote:
> Hi Jean-Christophe!
> 
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 02:33 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> > There is also a maintenance issue for the official mode. From what I 
> > understand, there seems to be 3 different versions of that mode and the 
> > authors are not active anymore (and have not been for 6 years)...
> 
> That's ok.  They are working fine for us for years anyway.  Many of us 
> (including me) know elisp and can fix them, but honestly, there has 
> never been an issue with them.
> 
> > In all honesty, if picolisp had not been maintained and updated for 6 
> > years, would you consider using it ? I don't think you would.
> 
> I agree.  But also,. I would argue that that's not exactly an 
> apples-to-apples comparison.  Editor configurations are much easier to 
> work with and much less complex than language and virtual machine 
> implementations.  I'll leave the latter to Alex. :)
> 
> -- 
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Re: picolisp-mode

[rick]

Hi Jean-Christophe!

Trying to clear up maybe some confusion (and I had already started
composing this too long ago :).

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 00:17 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> 1) On debian and related distributions, the picolisp official mode is 
> installed by default

Just to be clear, there is no "picolisp official mode" or even
"official picolisp mode".  Certainly, Alex does not claim this; he is
only including a version of picolisp-mode in the picolisp distro for
the user's convenience.  He started doing this probably way before
there was even an emacs package manager. :) Back then (were dinosaurs
roaming the earth then, Alex?  :), this was the way to distribute that
for visibility sake (and I'll bet that was the first picolisp-mode
too).  At any rate, please don't think that the picolisp-mode in the
picolisp distro is "official" in any sense.  It's more like a remnant.
It should probably stay there solely because it is not hosted (in a
permanent sense) anywhere else AFAIK.  At any rate, it's not
"official."

> and in fact, there is no mention of that mode in the emacs package
> manager when you look for it,

When you say "there is no mention of that mode in the emacs package
manager when you look for it", if you mean that you can't see it when
you look at the list generated by `package-list-packages`, that would
be correct, since those packages are registered with an ELPA service
(like melpa) and the picolisp-mode in the picolisp distro is not
registered with any ELPA service AFAIK (nor does it need to be IMO).

This might be a good place to mention that melpa isn't: (1) the only
ELPA-like service/archive and (2) it is not the only way to install
emacs packages.  I mentioned this in one of my other emails today.
And, I include some detail on this below.

> so you have no idea that anything is installed until you load a
> picolisp file.

Well, if you load a picolisp source file (*.l) and you are in some
picolisp-mode and you didn't cause that to happen by purposefully
setting that up in your emacs configuration, then that is simply due
to dumb luck.  Any emacs user has to be sure to put the location
(directory) of any packages on `load-path` and set up an association
to *.l files.  Just like when you login to a unix system, you should
know where the programs are located and how to set up PATH (and other
things) to get it working right, the same holds for emacs
configurations.  If you can't "see" a package / mode, that means that
you have lost the handle on where things are located.  That's on you.
And that's also why I mentioned (in a previous email, again), that to
stabilize that situation, I recommend to use the same emacs setup and
install picolisp yourself to a "standard" (for you) directory (maybe
under your $HOME) and that way you will know where everything is --
and it will Just Work(TM) with no further config tweaking.  IOW, I
recommend not to rely on your OS/distros package manager to install
picolisp (they don't install them in consistent places from one distro
to another, as you've noticed).

> 2) Similarly, on Debian, the alternative picolisp mode from Alexis
> is not listed in the emacs package manager.

If "listed in the emacs package manager" means that you can see it in
package-list-packages` output buffer, then *not* seeing it there means
that your emacs configuration is *not* pointing to the melpa service
-- check the `package-archives` variable -- (because we know that
Alexis's package is registered on melpa) or your network connex to
melpa was temporarily down.

For instance, I can see it here now in my package-list-packages
output:

> picolisp-mode is an available package.
> 
>  Status: Available from melpa -- Install
> Archive: melpa
> Version: 20190105.720
>  Commit: 39e54f31b5d10483aac2765bf5cc4ad92f9e4467
> Summary: Major mode for PicoLisp programming.
>Homepage: https://github.com/flexibeast/picolisp-mode
>Keywords: picolisp lisp programming 

> It may be because of a namespace issue, I have no idea.

No.
 
> 3) I don't know how all that works for other Linux distributions. It
> could be the same, it could be different.

Well, at least for emacs, it (emacs) works according to your personal
emacs configuration (normally either in ~/.emacs.d/init.el or
~/.emacs).  Please tell me that you have one of these and are not
relying on the "fallback" emacs site/system configuration.  If that
were the case, that could be the cause of inconsistent emacs behavior
from one platform to the next.

> 4) On my Mac, from where I can only ssh to my Raspbian picolisp, I
> have access to the melpa picolisp package and I discovered that this
> was not the same as the one distributed with picolisp when I noticed
> differences in behavior that caused a bit of confusion (no access to
> docs, e

Re: picolisp-mode

[rick]

Hi Jean-Christophe!

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 02:33 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> There is also a maintenance issue for the official mode. From what I 
> understand, there seems to be 3 different versions of that mode and the 
> authors are not active anymore (and have not been for 6 years)...

That's ok.  They are working fine for us for years anyway.  Many of us 
(including me) know elisp and can fix them, but honestly, there has never been 
an issue with them.

> In all honesty, if picolisp had not been maintained and updated for 6 
> years, would you consider using it ? I don't think you would.

I agree.  But also,. I would argue that that's not exactly an apples-to-apples 
comparison.  Editor configurations are much easier to work with and much less 
complex than language and virtual machine implementations.  I'll leave the 
latter to Alex. :)

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Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Rick,

Thank you for explaining your position. My wording may have been clumsy but I 
agree with everything you write.

The discussion is not about changing anything for people who already use one or 
the other mode. It is about proposing something easy to use *and* not confusing 
to new comers.

Besides for the merits of the various modes and the merits of having multiple 
modes, I think there is a big documentation issue. It is easily fixable and 
since that information is on the wiki that's something I can fix.

Then there is literally a ressource visibility issue at least on Debian. This 
one is not easy to fix and requires information from the Debian packager. I can 
ask for more information and see if there is a relatively easy fix.

There is also a maintenance issue for the official mode. From what I 
understand, there seems to be 3 different versions of that mode and the authors 
are not active anymore (and have not been for 6 years)...

In all honesty, if picolisp had not been maintained and updated for 6 years, 
would you consider using it ? I don't think you would.

Jean-Christophe 

> On Jan 23, 2019, at 15:20, r...@tamos.net  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 16:11 -05:00, Alexis wrote:
>> Having said all that, if the PicoLisp community generally felt it
>> would be best to settle on the mode currently bundled with the
>> distribution as /the/ Emacs mode for PicoLisp, and wanted me to
>> remove my mode from MELPA - or at least, rename it - in order to
>> avoid confusion, i'd be fine with that as well. :-)
> 
> No! :) First of all, there is no /the/ emacs mode for picolisp.  At
> the very least, that is my personal opinion.  beneroth mentioned on
> irc that there are picolisp users who use each of the known (including
> yours) picolisp modes. I don't think that they believe there is a
> "/the/ mode". :)
> 
> Also, "No!' goes for renaming or removing your code on melpa.  Please
> do not do this.  It is unnecessary.  I believe that you and the melpa
> people resolved this correctly.  I don't think anybody here believes
> that you "stole" or "sneaked" your code into melpa before any of the
> previously written mode authors could (in the "mwahahaha!" style,
> twirling the end of your mustache :).  That would be silly.  Anyway,
> those authors had plenty of time to register their mode with melpa if
> they wanted to.  They didn't.  (And you honestly didn't know about the
> others.)  melpa is just not an essential; it's just a nice
> convenience.  I get that milkypostman wants melpa to "win mindshare"
> or whatever his goals and motives are -- he certainly seems to believe
> in /the/ way.  Hey, as long as I can still source packages from
> where-ever, the melpa people can do whatever they want.
> 
> Anyway, that was very admirable of you to consider the community
> though.  Thanks, man!
> 
> Cheers, --Rick
> 
> -- 
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> 

Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com  
@brandelune

Re: picolisp-mode

[rick]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 16:11 -05:00, Alexis wrote:
> Having said all that, if the PicoLisp community generally felt it
> would be best to settle on the mode currently bundled with the
> distribution as /the/ Emacs mode for PicoLisp, and wanted me to
> remove my mode from MELPA - or at least, rename it - in order to
> avoid confusion, i'd be fine with that as well. :-)

No! :) First of all, there is no /the/ emacs mode for picolisp.  At
the very least, that is my personal opinion.  beneroth mentioned on
irc that there are picolisp users who use each of the known (including
yours) picolisp modes. I don't think that they believe there is a
"/the/ mode". :)

Also, "No!' goes for renaming or removing your code on melpa.  Please
do not do this.  It is unnecessary.  I believe that you and the melpa
people resolved this correctly.  I don't think anybody here believes
that you "stole" or "sneaked" your code into melpa before any of the
previously written mode authors could (in the "mwahahaha!" style,
twirling the end of your mustache :).  That would be silly.  Anyway,
those authors had plenty of time to register their mode with melpa if
they wanted to.  They didn't.  (And you honestly didn't know about the
others.)  melpa is just not an essential; it's just a nice
convenience.  I get that milkypostman wants melpa to "win mindshare"
or whatever his goals and motives are -- he certainly seems to believe
in /the/ way.  Hey, as long as I can still source packages from
where-ever, the melpa people can do whatever they want.

Anyway, that was very admirable of you to consider the community
though.  Thanks, man!

Cheers, --Rick

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Re: picolisp-mode

[rick]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:47 -05:00, andr...@itship.ch wrote:
> In the end everyone should use whatever fits that person the best,
> we don't need one way to rule them all.
> 
> - beneroth

Exactly.  Well said, beneroth.

I too am an emacs user.  I use tj's picolisp-mode.  I'm glad other
people are writing picolisp modes/packages for emacs -- the more the
merrier.  Thanks, Alexis.

Now back to the original topic.  As I see it, it was:

On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 06:43 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> There are currently 2 picolisp modes for emacs, one is distributed
> with picolisp and the other is on melpa. Is there a reason for that?

Yes, there is a reason.  I and many others value diversity in
software. I would like as many choices as are available to do picolisp
work in emacs.  I enjoy learning about the advantages and
disadvantages of one over the other, in other words, I like
considering the design choices made by the authors and as how they
relate to users' needs/requirements.  Maybe I'd like to weigh in with
a mode I write myself some day -- I don't now, as I, like beneroth, am
happy with the tools I have now -- nevertheless, I know this is a
viable option too.  (beneroth said it best on irc; "well I guess most
people in the picolisp community ended up here because they value
other things [more] than ease of access"; yes, I think most people
here are hackers and system tweakers.)

I'm only saying this because I am reading what's implied by people
like milkypostman (in that gh discussion): that there should be ONE
WAY that we should all coalesce around and, otherwise, that diversity
(often labeled "fragmentation" by its detractors) should be stamped
out, in some sense.  (I haven't heard this here, thankfully.)  I
couldn't disagree more.

On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 08:14 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> As far as emacs is concerned, we have melpa to manage our packages
> and in the picolisp case we have the Debian based distributions that
> only have access to the old mode and is not aware of the melpa
> package,

This is not a problem, as your/my emacs setup is orthogonal to this
concern.  This is especially true if, as I do, you do *not* believe
that melpa is the standard (and pretty-much sole) way of managing
emacs packages in your setup.  It certainly has become a /defacto/
standard (not THE standard: such a thing does not exist), but
ultimately, the way we configure emacs really determines how it runs.
I caution all people who *only* use melpa for packages -- if you do,
you will miss other packages (the ones that are not on melpa ofc).
Internet searches like Google are your friend here.  That is also why,
for instance, `use-package` was written to allow users to source
packages from pretty much anywhere on the intertubes, not *just* melpa
(or even other ELPA-like services).

> the rest of the world that has access to the melpa package and is
> not aware of the distribution package (or would not bother since the
> file is so old).

That's not necessarily true.  I use many off-melpa packages, some are
old and still work fine for me.

> That's messy.

Define "mess". ;)

> Considering that the melpa package is very actively maintained and
> supports the doc set, and that the distribution maintainers are not
> active, shouldn't we prefer a more standard "emacsy" way of dealing
> with the emacs mode and prefer what is on melpa (while eventually
> adding missing stuff from the distribution to the melpa archive)?

I think those are good reasons for *you* to prefer Alexis's version
and I wouldn't argue with you (they are indeed great reasons; to which
I would also add Alexis's use of pilIndent instead of elisp code).
But saying that "*we* [should] prefer" it and that there should be
"*a* [meaning, one] standard 'emacsy' way ..."?  No, I don't agree.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 10:06 -05:00, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> Maybe it would be better to refer to available packages in the
> documentation and let people use the one they like ?

This is a good idea.  Still, it's not easier than keeping things the
way they are.  As I believe you said: not a simple decision.

For those people having trouble with their emacs setup (for
programming and interaction with picolisp), what the system installs
should not be bothering your emacs setup as long as your local
packages (usually under ~/.emacs.d) are ahead of the system ones on
the `load-path`.  Also, picolisp executables and libs could be
installed, by the distro package manager, on one system in a different
location (path) than on another system.  To solve this: either tweak
your local emacs setup to point to the new location or, better yet,
install picolisp yourself in a (your, that is) standard location.  The
latter is what I do -- then I don't have to change anything.  Distro
package managers are not going to keep up with the latest
changes

Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 23, 2019, at 6:00, Alexis  <mailto:flexibe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Having said all that, if the PicoLisp community generally felt it would be 
> best to settle on the mode currently bundled with the distribution as /the/ 
> Emacs mode for PicoLisp, and wanted me to remove my mode from MELPA - or at 
> least, rename it - in order to avoid confusion, i'd be fine with that as 
> well. :-)

Just to make sure that there is no confusion :)

I am the one who raised the issue and I can't seriously be called "the picolisp 
community" ;)

And the issue I raised is the following (repeating myself, just to make sure we 
are all on the same page):

1) On debian and related distributions, the picolisp official mode is installed 
by default and in fact, there is no mention of that mode in the emacs package 
manager when you look for it, so you have no idea that anything is installed 
until you load a picolisp file. It also could be that the paredit patch is 
applied, it could be that the picolisp-wiki mode is installed as well, but 
there is no visible trace of that.

2) Similarly, on Debian, the alternative picolisp mode from Alexis is not 
listed in the emacs package manager. It may be because of a namespace issue, I 
have no idea.

3) I don't know how all that works for other Linux distributions. It could be 
the same, it could be different.

4) On my Mac, from where I can only ssh to my Raspbian picolisp, I have access 
to the melpa picolisp package and I discovered that this was not the same as 
the one distributed with picolisp when I noticed differences in behavior that 
caused a bit of confusion (no access to docs, etc.)

There are a number of ways to solve all that in order of "completeness" and 
"complexity":

I) Document the situation in the picolisp distribution (that won't solve the 
fact that Alexis' mode is not visible in Debian's emacs, but at least people 
will know the issue), that's an easy and costless thing to do: edit the wiki 
and the Readme file. I could do that.

II) make Alexis' mode visible in melpa even when running Debian. I'm in touch 
with the Debian packager for picolisp so I can ask if that's a namespace issue 
or something else. If that's only a namespace issue the solution would probably 
require to modify either the picolisp official emacs mode name or Alexis'.

a- Considering that the distribution mode is not visible  in emacs package 
system, changing its name would be transparent since calling the mode is made 
automatically with emacs hooks. Only when calling the mode manually would 
things differ, in which case the user should only remember the new mode name 
and we're done. Also, it's a one time install that is handled by Linux 
distribution packagers and users generally don't have to bother.

b- Changing Alexis' mode name requires administrative work on Melpa's side, it 
requires users to manually change the mode, updates would not be automatic, etc.

III) make sure that all the goodies that are in the picolisp mode are available 
in Alexis' mode and make Alexis' mode the distribution default. That includes 
inferior-picolisp.el. That requires Alexis to work on making sure that there is 
full compatibility.

I checked the paredit patch provided with picolisp, it only adds a 
"paredit-delete-leading-whitespace" function in various places. It is probably 
useful, and why not propose it for inclusion in paredit proper ? If it is not 
accepted, there is probably a way to trigger that behavior without having to 
patch paredit (a hook in the picolisp mode ?) but I don't know.

IV) Not strictly related, but the picolisp-wiki-mode could be transformed into 
a melpa package. That would be especially useful if "picolisp-wiki" (the 
server-side code) were packaged in Linux distributions so as to offer a useable 
wiki solution at large. That would also contribute to increasing picolisp's 
visibility.

Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com <http://mac4translators.blogspot.com/> 
@brandelune

Re: picolisp-mode

[Alexis]

andr...@itship.ch writes:


I greatly enjoy using paredit, which works well.
I have not tried out the other emacs modules for picolisp, and I 
don't
know if the one in MELPA works well with paredit, which I see as 
the

essential feature for an emacs picolisp-mode.


i myself don't use paredit - i've tried it, and have made an 
effort to use it, but in the end i found it to be much more of a 
hindrance than a help[1]. So i don't have any experience with 
paredit's interactions with my mode.



If the MELPA package supports paredit


Could you please explain what it means to "support paredit"? i 
certainly wouldn't want my mode to get in the way of people who 
want to use paredit.



and the other features of the
picolisp-mode coming with picolisp, ideally by also supporting 
the

nice tools from the vim/vip editors


Could you please elaborate on this? Which tools in particular are 
you thinking of?



Different users might find different versions, but I would not
consider it impossible or even difficult to get to the things 
you

want.
In the end everyone should use whatever fits that person the 
best, we

don't need one way to rule them all.


*nod* i very much agree. Whilst i definitely see the benefits of 
there being only one 'picolisp-mode', i also feel that there are 
benefits to having than one set of functionality available. Take 
the vc/magit situation as an example: vc and magit have quite 
different approaches to providing a UI to git, and that allows 
different users to choose the approach that works better for 
them.


Having said all that, if the PicoLisp community generally felt it 
would be best to settle on the mode currently bundled with the 
distribution as /the/ Emacs mode for PicoLisp, and wanted me to 
remove my mode from MELPA - or at least, rename it - in order to 
avoid confusion, i'd be fine with that as well. :-)



Alexis.

[1] Yes, i'm aware of the claim that "[i]f you think paredit is 
not for you then you need to become the kind of person that 
paredit is for." :-)


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Re: picolisp-mode

[andreas]

I'm working with picolisp and emacs, also using the older picolisp-mode 
which comes with the picolisp distribution (the official upstream one 
from http://software-lab.de/down.html).


I greatly enjoy using paredit, which works well.
I have not tried out the other emacs modules for picolisp, and I don't 
know if the one in MELPA works well with paredit, which I see as the 
essential feature for an emacs picolisp-mode.


The one coming with the picolisp distribution has some flaws: some newer 
built-ins are not known by the syntax highlighting, paredit treats (;) 
similar to CommonLisp comment, I didn't get Ctrl+K working(picolisp 
source/definition lookup, see picolisp in vim or vip.
But those never bothered me enough that I srsly wanted to do something 
about it.

I'm happy as it is.

If the MELPA package supports paredit and the other features of the 
picolisp-mode coming with picolisp, ideally by also supporting the nice 
tools from the vim/vip editors, then I would support to replace the mode 
in picolisp with the MELPA, so to have one unified emacs package for 
picolisp.


If nobody is to be found to ensure that for the MELPA package, then I 
would just leave it as it is now.
Different users might find different versions, but I would not consider 
it impossible or even difficult to get to the things you want.
In the end everyone should use whatever fits that person the best, we 
don't need one way to rule them all.


- beneroth

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Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 23:23, Alexander Burger  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 10:41:24PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> The problem is that on Debian (and derivatives) the most recent mode that 
>> Alexis has developed is not available. I discovered that when I found 
>> discrepancies between the mode in raspian and the mode on my Mac when I was 
>> sshing to raspian.
> 
> Yes, that's why I meant I could pack the other version if somebody tells me 
> exactly what is needed. Optimally by sending new files and telling me which 
> ones to replace. Then it will take of course a long time until it propagates 
> through
> the package systems.

Yes, but I wonder if it's necessary to provide this (or any) emacs package since
1) most of the people who use picolisp install it on Linux through a package 
manager and thus have no direct access to the picolisp distribution
2) most emacs users would use the emacs package manager to search for a 
picolisp mode

Maybe it would be better to refer to available packages in the documentation 
and let people use the one they like ?

Jean-Christophe 
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Re: picolisp-mode

[Alexander Burger]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 10:41:24PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> The problem is that on Debian (and derivatives) the most recent mode that 
> Alexis has developed is not available. I discovered that when I found 
> discrepancies between the mode in raspian and the mode on my Mac when I was 
> sshing to raspian.

Yes, that's why I meant I could pack the other version if somebody tells me
exactly what is needed. Optimally by sending new files and telling me which ones
to replace. Then it will take of course a long time until it propagates through
the package systems.

☺/ A!ex

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Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 22:04, Manuel Cano  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As an Emacs user, it would be nice to have Picolisp package in Debian 
> updated. I use Emacs but I've tweaked some other lisp libs.
> I don't use MELPA either.

The problem is that on Debian (and derivatives) the most recent mode that 
Alexis has developed is not available. I discovered that when I found 
discrepancies between the mode in raspian and the mode on my Mac when I was 
sshing to raspian.

If you have time, give the melpa mode a try, it is available from Github:
https://github.com/flexibeast/picolisp-mode

Jean-Christophe

> 
> Kind regards,
> Manu
> 
> 
> El mar., 22 ene. 2019 a las 10:20, Jean-Christophe Helary 
> (mailto:brandel...@gmail.com>>) escribió:
> 
> 
>> On Jan 22, 2019, at 15:58, Alexander Burger > <mailto:a...@software-lab.de>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Or should we change the one in the distribution? I can do that, but as a 
>> non-emacs user I don't know exactly what is needed. So if there is a general 
>> agreement, please let me know what I should do.
> 
> It would be nice to hear from other emacs users.
> 
> If only for the access to documentation at point I would rather use Alexis' 
> mode.
> 
> If there is an agreement on that, I think it would be nice to discuss how we 
> do that. :)
> 
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary
> ---
> http://mac4translators.blogspot.com <http://mac4translators.blogspot.com/> 
> @brandelune
> 
> 

Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: picolisp-mode

[Manuel Cano]

Hi,

As an Emacs user, it would be nice to have Picolisp package in Debian
updated. I use Emacs but I've tweaked some other lisp libs.
I don't use MELPA either.

Kind regards,
Manu


El mar., 22 ene. 2019 a las 10:20, Jean-Christophe Helary (<
brandel...@gmail.com>) escribió:

>
>
> On Jan 22, 2019, at 15:58, Alexander Burger  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Or should we change the one in the distribution? I can do that, but as
> a non-emacs user I don't know exactly what is needed. So if there is a
> general agreement, please let me know what I should do.
>
>
> It would be nice to hear from other emacs users.
>
> If only for the access to documentation at point I would rather use
> Alexis' mode.
>
> If there is an agreement on that, I think it would be nice to discuss how
> we do that. :)
>
>
> Jean-Christophe Helary
> ---
> http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune
>
>
>

Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 15:58, Alexander Burger  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Or should we change the one in the distribution? I can do that, but as a 
> non-emacs user I don't know exactly what is needed. So if there is a general 
> agreement, please let me know what I should do.

It would be nice to hear from other emacs users.

If only for the access to documentation at point I would rather use Alexis' 
mode.

If there is an agreement on that, I think it would be nice to discuss how we do 
that. :)


Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: picolisp-mode

[Alexander Burger]

Hi all,

> > There are currently 2 picolisp modes for emacs, one is distributed with
> > picolisp and the other is on melpa. Is there a reason for that ?
> 
> Yes:
> 
>https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/2514
> 
> One of the MELPA maintainers said in that thread:
> 
>If the time comes that users start saying that picolisp-mode
>on MELPA should be the official version then lets cross that
>road when we get there.
> 
> If people here would now like me to rename my mode, i'd be happy to initiate
> that process.

Or should we change the one in the distribution? I can do that, but as a
non-emacs user I don't know exactly what is needed. So if there is a general
agreement, please let me know what I should do.

☺/ A!ex

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Re: picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Alexis,

Wow :) Thank you for the information.

My current issue is that Debian installs the distribution picolisp-mode by 
default and for some reason the melpa package (yours) is not available.

Also, on Debian (well, it was Raspbian but I guess that's the same), when you 
open a picolisp file and you try to launch a picolisp process from the Picolisp 
menu, it doesn't work, as I wrote yesterday.

As far as emacs is concerned, we have melpa to manage our packages and in the 
picolisp case we have the Debian based distributions that only have access to 
the old mode and is not aware of the melpa package, and the rest of the world 
that has access to the melpa package and is not aware of the distribution 
package (or would not bother since the file is so old).

That's messy.

Considering that the melpa package is very actively maintained and supports the 
doc set, and that the distribution maintainers are not active, shouldn't we 
prefer a more standard "emacsy" way of dealing with the emacs mode and prefer 
what is on melpa (while eventually adding missing stuff from the distribution 
to the melpa archive)?

Jean-Christophe 

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 20:55, Alexis  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary  writes:
> 
>> There are currently 2 picolisp modes for emacs, one is distributed with 
>> picolisp and the other is on melpa. Is there a reason for that ?
> 
> Yes:
> 
>   https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/2514
> 
> One of the MELPA maintainers said in that thread:
> 
>   If the time comes that users start saying that picolisp-mode
>   on MELPA should be the official version then lets cross that
>   road when we get there.
> 
> If people here would now like me to rename my mode, i'd be happy to initiate 
> that process.
> 
> 
> Alexis.
> 
> -- 
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Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: picolisp-mode

[Alexis]

Jean-Christophe Helary  writes:

There are currently 2 picolisp modes for emacs, one is 
distributed with picolisp and the other is on melpa. Is there a 
reason for that ?


Yes:

   https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/2514

One of the MELPA maintainers said in that thread:

   If the time comes that users start saying that picolisp-mode
   on MELPA should be the official version then lets cross that
   road when we get there.

If people here would now like me to rename my mode, i'd be happy 
to initiate that process.



Alexis.

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picolisp-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

There are currently 2 picolisp modes for emacs, one is distributed with 
picolisp and the other is on melpa. Is there a reason for that ?


Jean-Christophe Helary
---
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune



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Re: GNU Emacs picolisp-mode

[Henrik Sarvell]

Hi Alex,

I don't know, too many changes too long ago, I have to do a diff against
the one in the standard release and see if I can detect something weird
first.

On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 12:42 PM Alexander Burger 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On Sat, Oct 06, 2018 at 12:36:27AM +0700, Henrik Sarvell wrote:
> > I attached my slightly modified version.
>
> Is it something we should put into the standard release?
>
> ☺/ A!ex
>
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>

Re: GNU Emacs picolisp-mode

[Tedd M. V.]

Henrik Sarvell  writes:

> I attached my slightly modified version.

Cool, thank you! ;-)

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Re: GNU Emacs picolisp-mode

[Henrik Sarvell]

I attached my slightly modified version.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:57 AM Tedd M. V.  wrote:

> Hello people, I'm sorry if I'm really confused but I'm just starting to
> learn picolisp, reading the tutorial the 'emacs'-style, but at the very
> beggining I saw this:
>
>
> "If you prefer to use Emacs, please use the picolisp-mode bundled in the
> "el/" directory (that is "@lib/el" for a local installation, or some
> system dependent directory for a global installation)."
>
>
> I imply that somewhere in the installation a .el file for emacs (to be
> places on your folder .emacs.d and added to your .emacs) is present and
> that it's not the same 'emacs'-style mode. Am I correct? So, if I am, I
> installed picolisp in Ubuntu, where can I find that file? I used whereis
> in the terminal but nowhere in a "/lib/" folder is something .el. Could
> someone please help use this emacs mode please? I'm more used to emacs.
>
> If it does not come in the binary installation, where in the source code
> do I get it?
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Tedd M. V.
>
> --
> -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.12
> GAT d- s+:+ a? C UL P+ L+++ E+ W+++ N+ o-- K+ w
> O-- M- V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5 X+ R tv- b+++ DI-- D+
> G++ e* h! r- z*
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
>
> GPG: 37219EA0D04C8D3C
> Keybase: tmv
> Ring: tmv
> Cryptocat: tmv
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> Signal: Upon request | Bajo solicitación
>
>
>
;; picolisp-mode: Major mode to edit picoLisp.
;; Version: 1.1

;;; Copyright (c) 2009, Guillermo R. Palavecino

;; This file is NOT part of GNU emacs.

 Credits:
;; It's based on GNU emacs' lisp-mode and scheme-mode.
;; Some bits were taken from paredit.el
;;
 Contact:
;; For comments, bug reports, questions, etc, you can contact me via IRC
;; to the user named grpala (or armadillo) on irc.freenode.net in the
;; #picolisp channel or via email to the author's nickname at gmail.com
;;
 License:
;; This work is released under the GPL 2 or (at your option) any later
;; version.

(require 'lisp-mode)

(defcustom picolisp-parsep t
  "This is to toggle picolisp-mode's multi-line s-exps closing parens separation capability."
  :type 'boolean
  :group 'picolisp )

;; I know... this shouldn't be here, but you see, people may want to keep
;; their body-indent value unaltered and have a different one for picolisp
;; sources, so...
(defcustom picolisp-body-indent 3
  "Number of columns to indent the second line of a `(de ...)' form."
  :group 'picolisp
  :type 'integer )

(defvar picolisp-mode-syntax-table
  (let ((st (make-syntax-table))
(i 0) )

;; Default is atom-constituent.
(while (< i 256)
  (modify-syntax-entry i "_   " st)
  (setq i (1+ i)) )

;; Word components.
(setq i ?0)
(while (<= i ?9)
  (modify-syntax-entry i "w   " st)
  (setq i (1+ i)) )
(setq i ?A)
(while (<= i ?Z)
  (modify-syntax-entry i "w   " st)
  (setq i (1+ i)) )
(setq i ?a)
(while (<= i ?z)
  (modify-syntax-entry i "w   " st)
  (setq i (1+ i)) )

;; Whitespace
(modify-syntax-entry ?\t "" st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\n ">   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\f "" st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\r "" st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\s "" st)

;; These characters are delimiters but otherwise undefined.
;; Brackets and braces balance for editing convenience.
(modify-syntax-entry ?\[ "(]  " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\] ")[  " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?{  "(}  " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?}  "){  " st)

;; Other atom delimiters
(modify-syntax-entry ?\( "()  " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\) ")(  " st)
;; It's used for single-line comments.
(modify-syntax-entry ?#  "<   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\" "\"   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?'  "'   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?`  "'   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?~  "'   " st)

;; Special characters
(modify-syntax-entry ?,  "'   " st)
(modify-syntax-entry ?\\ "\\   " st)
st ) )

(defvar picolisp-mode-abbrev-table nil)
(define-abbrev-table 'picolisp-mode-abbrev-table ())

(defun picolisp-mode-variables ()
  (set-syntax-table picolisp-mode-syntax-table)
  ;;(setq local-abbrev-table picolisp-mode-abbrev-table)
  (make-local-variable 'paragraph-start)
  (setq paragraph-start (concat "$\\|" page-delimiter))
  ;;(setq comint-input-ring-file-name "~/.pil_history")

  (make-local-variable 'paragraph-separate)
  (setq paragraph-separate paragraph-start)

  (make-local-va

Re: GNU Emacs picolisp-mode

[Tedd M. V.]

Thorsten Jolitz  writes:

> tmv...@cryptolab.net (Tedd M. V.) writes:
>
>> Hello people, I'm sorry if I'm really confused but I'm just starting to
>> learn picolisp, reading the tutorial the 'emacs'-style, but at the very
>> beggining I saw this:
>>
>>
>> "If you prefer to use Emacs, please use the picolisp-mode bundled in the
>> "el/" directory (that is "@lib/el" for a local installation, or some
>> system dependent directory for a global installation)."
>>
>>
>> I imply that somewhere in the installation a .el file for emacs (to be
>> places on your folder .emacs.d and added to your .emacs) is present and
>> that it's not the same 'emacs'-style mode. Am I correct? So, if I am, I
>> installed picolisp in Ubuntu, where can I find that file? I used whereis
>> in the terminal but nowhere in a "/lib/" folder is something .el. Could
>> someone please help use this emacs mode please? I'm more used to emacs.
>>
>> If it does not come in the binary installation, where in the source code
>> do I get it?
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> Tedd M. V.
>
> Hallo Tedd,
> Picolisp has a different philosophy than Emacs, i.e. the pure Unix
> philosophy 'one tool for one task' (more or less), while Emacs is more
> 'one tool for all tasks'.
>
> So PicoLisp comes with a line editor for writing single command lines
> like in a shell. When you want to do text editing, you call an editor
> like vim via (edit ...), when finished with editing, you go back to you
> command line (line editor).
>
> This line editor uses vim keybindings, but you can set it to emacs style
> bindings by doing once:
>
> :pil -em +
>
> or
>
> : pil +
> :(em)
>
> The picolisp emacs mode is something else, normally its for Emacs users
> who like to stay all the time in their favorite editor Emacs, that has
> different editing modes for different programming languages.
> You should have the .el files necessary in you picolisp distribution, if
> not, look on my github accout tj64 for them.

That was exactly my doubbt, 'maybe, somehow I'm confusing the emacs style line
editor moder'. And also user Simon Saville show me that the files are
there by default, duh!

> cheers,
> Thorsten

Thanks a lot! Very helpful :)
Tedd M. V.

-- 
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GAT d- s+:+ a? C UL P+ L+++ E+ W+++ N+ o-- K+ w 
O-- M- V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5 X+ R tv- b+++ DI-- D+ 
G++ e* h! r- z* 
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

GPG: 37219EA0D04C8D3C
Keybase: tmv
Ring: tmv
Cryptocat: tmv
Bitmessage: BM-2cSx4RVaXbRvWmPtRsdoW25f8wipSMVRAG
Signal: Upon request | Bajo solicitación


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Description: PGP signature

Re: GNU Emacs picolisp-mode

[Simon Saville]

Hi Ted,
I use a debian installed picolisp, along with emacs, and it's all
setup to work by the packages.
To find which files are included with your package try 'dpkg -L picolisp'.
For debian the important files are:-
/etc/emacs/site-start.d/50picolisp.el
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/picolisp/*
So 'picolisp-mode' is available to use, as is the inferior-picolisp
I realise that there are probably differences in packaging between
debian & ubuntu, but they both use the same dpkg system.
This might help you find out what's going on. Maybe, drop a note to
the package maintainer?
Simon
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 21:58, Tedd M. V.  wrote:
>
> Hello people, I'm sorry if I'm really confused but I'm just starting to
> learn picolisp, reading the tutorial the 'emacs'-style, but at the very
> beggining I saw this:
>
>
> "If you prefer to use Emacs, please use the picolisp-mode bundled in the
> "el/" directory (that is "@lib/el" for a local installation, or some
> system dependent directory for a global installation)."
>
>
> I imply that somewhere in the installation a .el file for emacs (to be
> places on your folder .emacs.d and added to your .emacs) is present and
> that it's not the same 'emacs'-style mode. Am I correct? So, if I am, I
> installed picolisp in Ubuntu, where can I find that file? I used whereis
> in the terminal but nowhere in a "/lib/" folder is something .el. Could
> someone please help use this emacs mode please? I'm more used to emacs.
>
> If it does not come in the binary installation, where in the source code
> do I get it?
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Tedd M. V.
>
> --
> -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.12
> GAT d- s+:+ a? C UL P+ L+++ E+ W+++ N+ o-- K+ w
> O-- M- V- PS++ PE Y+ PGP++ t+ 5 X+ R tv- b+++ DI-- D+
> G++ e* h! r- z*
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
>
> GPG: 37219EA0D04C8D3C
> Keybase: tmv
> Ring: tmv
> Cryptocat: tmv
> Bitmessage: BM-2cSx4RVaXbRvWmPtRsdoW25f8wipSMVRAG
> Signal: Upon request | Bajo solicitación
>
>

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