Re: The many uses of PilMCU

2014-10-13 Thread Heow Goodman
I've started a wiki document:

http://picolisp.com/wiki/?pilMCU

Will flesh it out over the next few days.

- h

On 2014-10-7, 4:36 PM, Christophe Gragnic wrote:
 Hi list !
 
 This thread is meant to collect ideas about PilMCU.
 At least mine (because I need to clean them up a bit)
 and ideas of other PicoLispers (out of curiosity).
 
 Maybe some items will look more like questions like «is it even possible?»!
 (This email took me at least two weeks of careful drafting.)
 
 May this thread help Alex and George to refine their biz-plan!
 
 My ideas are all related to the language I embed in PicoLisp:
 http://microalg.info
 I dream about a small box that would interpret this language and interact
 in several ways with the user (output of course, but input like coding
 the box too,
 as well as typing words or other (gaming) peripherals).
 
 Now I may go in more details. I'm not saying that Alex and George
 may build this box, but could consider enough flexibility and connectivity
 for someone to be able to build this kind of project based on their project
 

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Re: The many uses of PilMCU

2014-10-13 Thread Heow Goodman
My apologies, should have been more verbose.  Now in the wiki:

KEY

The left column denotes price. For instance $100x is 100
TIMES the consumer purchase price.

Similarly the top column denotes efficiency or performance,
as an example 5x slower means 1/5th the speed of a similar
consumer device.This must be based on the context of the
contents, we're not building a 3D graph.

This is because people want to build a variety of devices:

  * 3D goggles
  * mobile phone
  * genetic testing cluster
  * game system
  * wearable

The price and performance of these tasks varies as wildly as our
expectations.  Right now we have no idea how performant it will be or
how much it will cost.  This is where the wiki comes in, to outline
ideas based on which bucket the idea falls into.

- h

On 2014-10-13, 4:53 PM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
 I don't understand the leftmost column with the dollars.
 
 On 2014-10-13 22:38, Heow Goodman wrote:
 I've started a wiki document:

  http://picolisp.com/wiki/?pilMCU

 Will flesh it out over the next few days.

 - h

 On 2014-10-7, 4:36 PM, Christophe Gragnic wrote:
 Hi list !

 This thread is meant to collect ideas about PilMCU.
 At least mine (because I need to clean them up a bit)
 and ideas of other PicoLispers (out of curiosity).

 Maybe some items will look more like questions like «is it even
 possible?»!
 (This email took me at least two weeks of careful drafting.)

 May this thread help Alex and George to refine their biz-plan!

 My ideas are all related to the language I embed in PicoLisp:
 http://microalg.info
 I dream about a small box that would interpret this language and
 interact
 in several ways with the user (output of course, but input like coding
 the box too,
 as well as typing words or other (gaming) peripherals).

 Now I may go in more details. I'm not saying that Alex and George
 may build this box, but could consider enough flexibility and
 connectivity
 for someone to be able to build this kind of project based on their
 project

 

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Re: The many uses of PilMCU

2014-10-13 Thread George Orais
Hi Heow,

Looks great!! Thanks and yes i agree with the the details on Fast Dev ;)

Keep posted, cheers!

BR,
geo



On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:49 AM, Heow Goodman li...@alphageeksinc.com 
wrote:
 


My apologies, should have been more verbose.  Now in the wiki:

KEY

The left column denotes price. For instance $100x is 100
TIMES the consumer purchase price.

Similarly the top column denotes efficiency or performance,
as an example 5x slower means 1/5th the speed of a similar
consumer device.This must be based on the context of the
contents, we're not building a 3D graph.

This is because people want to build a variety of devices:

  * 3D goggles
  * mobile phone
  * genetic testing cluster
  * game system
  * wearable

The price and performance of these tasks varies as wildly as our
expectations.  Right now we have no idea how performant it will be or
how much it will cost.  This is where the wiki comes in, to outline
ideas based on which bucket the idea falls into.

- h


On 2014-10-13, 4:53 PM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
 I don't understand the leftmost column with the dollars.
 
 On 2014-10-13 22:38, Heow Goodman wrote:
 I've started a wiki document:

  http://picolisp.com/wiki/?pilMCU

 Will flesh it out over the next few days.

 - h

 On 2014-10-7, 4:36 PM, Christophe Gragnic wrote:
 Hi list !

 This thread is meant to collect ideas about PilMCU.
 At least mine (because I need to clean them up a bit)
 and ideas of other PicoLispers (out of curiosity).

 Maybe some items will look more like questions like «is it even
 possible?»!
 (This email took me at least two weeks of careful drafting.)

 May this thread help Alex and George to refine their biz-plan!

 My ideas are all related to the language I embed in PicoLisp:
 http://microalg.info
 I dream about a small box that would interpret this language and
 interact
 in several ways with the user (output of course, but input like coding
 the box too,
 as well as typing words or other (gaming) peripherals).

 Now I may go in more details. I'm not saying that Alex and George
 may build this box, but could consider enough flexibility and
 connectivity
 for someone to be able to build this kind of project based on their
 project

 

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Re: The many uses of PilMCU

2014-10-08 Thread Thorsten Jolitz
Christophe Gragnic
christophegrag...@gmail.com writes:

Hi Christophe,

 This thread is meant to collect ideas about PilMCU.
 At least mine (because I need to clean them up a bit)
 and ideas of other PicoLispers (out of curiosity).

 Maybe some items will look more like questions like «is it even possible?»!

that last sentence describes the situation very well for people who have
not been in the 'embedded world' so far (like me) - they can let their
imagination (about PilMCU) flow, but most likely some seasoned embedded
programmer will bring them back-to-earth soon. 

For me the fascination about the PilMCU chip lies in the fact that, even
if it might be slower or more expensive than available mass products, I
can program it in PicoLisp. For others this might be a huge advantage
over doing embedded programming in other environments (which they
already know), for me it would allow me to try out embedded programming
without having to learn all the usual related stuff, I would simply skip
the painfull part and directly go to the fun part, so to say.

The problem is that I don't know exactly how that fun part would look
like in the end? Whats the state-of-the-art in robotics e.g.? How
difficult would it be to use the PilMCU chip as the brain of an
otherwise fully functional roboter(-tool-kit) - if at all possible? 

What about (connecting) smart home devices etc? All my ideas are
application oriented, i.e. I imagine an interesting use of a chip that
is programmed in PicoLisp, but these ideas can be turned down easily by
saying this would be cheaper  faster when simply running 64bit
PicoLisp on a regular mass-product chip.

So I think this thread is a good idea, and hope it helps me to make up
my mind about realistic possibilities of PilMUC. 

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

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Re: The many uses of PilMCU

2014-10-07 Thread George Orais
Hi Christophe!

Thanks for this great post! This will add more motivation for this project ;)

And yes, we will surely try our best to provide the actual hardware soon as 
possible, i noticed these days that there are many DIY kit that uses the RPi, 
it would be nice to see a kit which is intended for Lispers ;) 

So as of the moment i was busy for last 2 days on assembling and installing my 
new PC which i bought for this purpose because my old laptop was a bit slow for 
compiling and simulating ALTERA FPGA. Just last night i finished installed the 
latest tools under Win 8.1 Pro and tonight will try my code on that machine and 
get on track again: TtyIn then EEPROM. 

I'm looking forward to finish TtyIn and EEPROM this weekend, after that i can 
proceed with SDRAM, ciao for now!


BR,
geo



On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 4:36 AM, Christophe Gragnic 
christophegrag...@gmail.com wrote:
 


Hi list !

This thread is meant to collect ideas about PilMCU.
At least mine (because I need to clean them up a bit)
and ideas of other PicoLispers (out of curiosity).

Maybe some items will look more like questions like «is it even possible?»!
(This email took me at least two weeks of careful drafting.)

May this thread help Alex and George to refine their biz-plan!

My ideas are all related to the language I embed in PicoLisp:
http://microalg.info
I dream about a small box that would interpret this language and interact
in several ways with the user (output of course, but input like coding
the box too,
as well as typing words or other (gaming) peripherals).

Now I may go in more details. I'm not saying that Alex and George
may build this box, but could consider enough flexibility and connectivity
for someone to be able to build this kind of project based on their project

Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-09 Thread Thorsten
Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:


Hi Alex,

 sure how to insert the table. I would like to insert the raw html so
 that I don't have to recreate the table in wiki syntax (probably only
 the body part?). 

 Hmm, that's a problem. Currently, the only way to display such data is
 the pre-formatted markup, e.g.

 :{
data layout
 }

 or point to some external HTML document with

^{http://location.org Document}

I don't have a server running. 

 It would be tempting to add a new markup, for direct inclusion of HTML
 code, to the wiki syntax. However, this would introduce trouble, because
 the automatic TeX/PDF generator can't handle it.


 You could try to use 'html2text' on the HTML document, do some manual
 tuning, and then include it as pre-formatted text. Can you try that?

Its the html-export of an Emacs .org file anyway, so the original file
is plain text. I'll try that. 

But somehow I discovered a bug in the wiki?
when I try to make a new doc

,--
| myaccount-documents-new-Document+-new
`--

I get this message, even when I just logged in a minute ago. 
I closed and re-opened my brower (conqueror) but that did not help.
strange...

,
| Timeout
|
| Es konnte keine Verbindung zur Anwendung hergestellt werden.   
|
| Wahrscheinlich wurde die Wartezeit überschritten und die Anwendung beendet.
| Bitte versuchen Sie, die Anwendung neu aufzurufen. 
|
| Could not connect to the current session.  
|
| Probably, a timeout occurred, and the session terminated.  
| Please try to re-connect to the application.   
|
`

Cheers,
-- 
Thorsten

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Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-09 Thread Alexander Burger
Hi Thorsten,

 Trying again, after waiting a few minutes, it worked.

Yeah, I've just sent a mail informing about the bugfix.


 Now I inserted the (ultra-long) table into a :{} enrironment and made a
 new page. Preview showed that the format of the table was ok, but the
 table-size was not fitted to pagesize (no line-breaks).

Perhaps better clean it up and insert linebreaks. And perhaps some
delimiting lines.

I found that when I called 'html2text' with your original HTML-document,
as included in the mails, looks quite nice.


 I saved the page anyway. Lets see how it looks like. 

You don't refer to that page yet from somewhere in the Wiki?

Cheers,
- Alex
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Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-09 Thread Thorsten
Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de writes:

Hi Alex,

 Perhaps better clean it up and insert linebreaks. And perhaps some
 delimiting lines.

I gave it a second try, starting with a link from the articles page, and
and now everything looks fine and works without problems - as long as
I'm logged in. 

When I log out and access the wiki, the link to my article (on the
articles/essays page) is not shown as a link any more, but as text. 
I have no idea why - the link entry looks fine to me...

Cheers,
-- 
Thorsten

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Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-09 Thread Alexander Burger
Hi Thorsten,

 When I log out and access the wiki, the link to my article (on the
 articles/essays page) is not shown as a link any more, but as text. 
 I have no idea why - the link entry looks fine to me...

Hmm, perhaps another bug in the Wiki: The mainenance GUI doesn't enforce
a folded spelling of the name, which is a unique key in the DB.

I changed the internal name of your new document from AtMark to
atmark, and now it works. And I also changed the GUI, to automatically
'fold' the name of a newly created document.

Thanks again!

Cheers,
- Alex
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Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-08 Thread José Romero
On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:29:39 +0100
Thorsten quintf...@googlemail.com wrote:

 
 Hi list,
 
 when reading Picolisp source code I often find myself a bit confused
 with regards to the meaning of @ in the context of the source code.
 Therefore I tried to make a table that summarizes all possible
 meanings of @ in Picolisp in one place (see attached html-file
 below). Please let me know what I've missed or where I misunderstood
 something.
 
 If you think the table is worth it, I could make a wiki-page for it,
 but I don't have access to the picolisp-wiki. 
 
 Cheers

'text also uses @ http://software-lab.de/doc/refT.html#text
It's also useful to note that in short-circuit evaluation style
functions like 'and, @ always holds the result of the previously
evaluated argument, as you can see in this typical PicoLisp line:

  (and and (@ (min @ 5) (prinl @) (gt0 (dec @)) .))

;)
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Re: The many uses of @

2011-11-08 Thread Thorsten
José Romero jose.cyb...@gmail.com
writes:

 On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:47:04 +0100
 Thorsten quintf...@googlemail.com wrote:

 José Romero jose.cyb...@gmail.com
 writes:
 
  'text also uses @ http://software-lab.de/doc/refT.html#text
  It's also useful to note that in short-circuit evaluation style
  functions like 'and, @ always holds the result of the previously
  evaluated argument, as you can see in this typical PicoLisp line:
 
(and and (@ (min @ 5) (prinl @) (gt0 (dec @)) .))
 
  ;)
 
 ok, I added these two cases to the table (see below).
 
 Could you give a little 'walk-through' for the example line, its not
 that obvious (to me) how this works (but it does) ;)
 
 min, prinl, gt0 and dec are obvious.
 the double 'and and' and the '.' at the and are a bit strange. Where
 does the initial @=5 come from - because @ is initially T and T is
 greater than everything else?
 
 cheers

 Pretty silly and badly written explanation of what goes on there:

  I'm eval. I see a list, look inside, i see a symbol called 'and. i
  look at it's val. It's a number, thus a function pointer, i call it
  with the rest of the list unevaluated.

  I'm doAnd, i look at the list i was passed, i see a symbol called 'and,
  i evaluate it, a number came out, it's not NIL, so i shove it in @ and
  look at the next cadr. It's a list, i evaluate it, has a symbol called
  @ in it's car, that symbol resolves to a number, a pointer to doAnd, i 
  call it with the rest of the list unchanged.

  I'm doAnd, i look at the list i was passed, the first argument,
  evaluating it results in a function call that returns 5, it's not nil,
  so i shove it to @ and go on. The next element is another list, a call
  to prinl happens, it returned 5, it's not nil, so i shove it to @ and
  go on. Look at the next element, a call to (gt0 (dec @)), returns 4,
  that is not nil, so i shove the 4 in @ and go on. Looking at the next
  cadr i see @ again (but i don't realize, because i don't know wether a
  list is circular or not), it evaluates to 4, so i shove it to @ keep
  going. I see (min @ 5) again.
  ... 3
  ... 2
  ... 1
  ... (gt0 (dec @)) returns NIL here, so i stop evaluating and return NIL

  Back in the first doAnd, i see the previous call returned NIL, so i
  stop evaluating right there and return NIL.

great, thank you - thats probably what one would call dense code. 

what I did not understand (or remembered) in the beginning was that symbols
evaluate to their VAL, a number (the second 'and') and that a final '.'
immediatly followed by a closing parenthesis indicates a circular list. 

a lot of things going on in one single line of code. in picolisp its
really helpfull to be aware whats going on under the hood. 

 Then I realized that it could be written with only one 'and using
 the right syntax (and losing part of it's rube-goldberg appeal):

that looks a bit easier ...

   (and 5 . ((prinl @) (gt0 (dec @)) .))

let me try this one: 

I'm eval. I see a list, look inside, i see a symbol called 'and. i
look at it's val. It's a number, thus a function pointer, i call it
with the rest of the list unevaluated.
I'm doAnd, i look at the number i was passed, i see a number 5,
i evaluate it, a number came out, it's not NIL, so i shove it in @ and
look at the next cadr. 

here I get stuck - this looks like a dotted pair cell, but thats a list
and not an atom in the CDR? or is this list evaluated until it return an
atom as an result? otherwise its clear that doAnd evaluates the circular
list until NIL is returned.  

Cheers
-- 
Thorsten

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