Re: Current status of KDE for Lenny

2008-07-22 Thread Pierre Habouzit
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 08:41:36PM +, Pino Toscano wrote:
 Alle lunedì 21 luglio 2008, Pierre Habouzit ha scritto:
  On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 07:21:12PM +, Ana Guerrero wrote:
   On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 09:03:42PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 05:44:23PM +, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
 On 2008-07-19, Ana Guerrero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi!
 
  -okular, the new KDE 4 document viewer. (source split from KDE 4's
  kdegraphics)

 Is it indended to replace or accompany kpdf for Lenny?
   
  I hope not, okular isn't a decent replacement for kpdf for me yet.
  
   seriuosly? first time I have read somebody prefer kpdf over okular.
 
  Seriously:
+ navigation of hyperlinks is badly broken (doesn't jump in the proper
  places e.g.);
 
 Bug reported but never been able to reproduce myself.

  Well, it happens regularly enough to me, and pity you can't reproduce
it, but it's a huge problem to navigate in documents that are thousands
of pages big.

+ I *hate* the left widget with silly icons that eat horizontal space
  for no good reason, and miss the previous sliding widget that
  implemented the very same in kpdf, and it's a big no-go for me, I've
  a small screen on my laptop ;
 
 The silly icons have a reason for being there, but given what you said, 
 telling the reason is pointless. Anyway, 22px is a so huge problem?

  Yes, because of that, I cant have two okular side by side _and_
readable contents on my screen, with kpdf I can. Note that when reduced
to their minimal size, I have to memorize what the icons are for, which
is a regression from the sliding widget in kpdf where there is text I
can read.

And there are quite a few quirks that are irritating beyond words,
  when you work with huge PDFs files (lots of norms, POSIX documentation,
  and whatnot) on a hourly basis.
 
 And do you hope that the few quirks that are irritating will automagically 
 solve themselves during the night?
 I'll tell you what's irritating: users that don't speak even if forced, but 
 they do really complain (even a lot) about the state of things. This will NOT 
 help us (and you probably know that).

  Well, I have tried it at work for one day, and I'm not payed for
reporting bugs. I had really no time for it, and I went back to kpdf.
I've decided to wait for a more mature kde release so that the number of
quirks goes down and that I can take 5 minutes for reporting the
leftovers rather than a hour I don't have.

+ there are quite a few annoying glitches with the thumbnail
  navigation too, I don't recall which though.
 
 ?

  I seem to recall something with clicking on thumbnails that doesn't
jump to the page, and scrolling that was horribly slow.

Kpdf may lack a few fancy thingies, but the UI is overall more
  polished.
 
 Huge POV; many other users actually think the opposite.

  Probably, but I still hold it, even if it seems to annoy you.

  Like we say in france, the devil is in the details. okular is 
  gross compared to what kpdf does for now.
 
 Cool with words, eh. It's not like we tried to improve it, to get gross 
 back.

  In fact that's a language issue, I meant rough, not gross. But still,
there are indeed things that look better in okular: the gray shadow in
the thumbnail area is a good idea e.g. Though, it's not yet polished
enough for me. That's all.


  Note that I'm now an occasional KDE user now, I only use a couple of
KDE apps, kpdf being among them. I don't know why you're irritated so
much:

  (1) I wasn't complaining that okular was bad. It's not, I find it
  promising. I merely stated that kpdf was still better for me.

  (2) I'm not _required_ to report bugs[0], I do it when I've the time.
  Though since I didn't reported bugs, I didn't complained about
  okular taking time to be fixed.

  (3) I know what it feel when you worked hard on something and that
  after all it wasn't so good. I know it hurt pride and al. but
  really, the left icons are not a good UI. And I know I'm not the
  only one to think that.

  (4) I wasn't judging anyone in my previous mails, but now I am: if
  each time someones tells that they don't like okular you get
  outraged at this level, then you should really consider quitting.
  My Ice Cream vendor isn't annoyed when I say that I don't like his
  chocolate flavoured Ice Cream because it's too soft for me, in
  fact, it instead creates a new bitter flavor because he knows
  he'll have some clients that prefers this one.



  [0] reporting bugs is a huge work, it's not a fire and forget thing,
  you have to answer the developers, try new versions, try even
  sometimes patches and so on. It's very time consuming, and I know
  I won't have that time. There is nothing more annoying than a user
  that can't take that time, but still complains about bugs not
  being fixed. Knowing that, I prefer not 

Re: Current status of KDE for Lenny

2008-07-22 Thread Pino Toscano
Alle martedì 22 luglio 2008, Pierre Habouzit ha scritto:
 And there are quite a few quirks that are irritating beyond words,
   when you work with huge PDFs files (lots of norms, POSIX documentation,
   and whatnot) on a hourly basis.
 
  And do you hope that the few quirks that are irritating will
  automagically solve themselves during the night?
  I'll tell you what's irritating: users that don't speak even if forced,
  but they do really complain (even a lot) about the state of things. This
  will NOT help us (and you probably know that).

   Well, I have tried it at work for one day, and I'm not payed for
 reporting bugs. I had really no time for it, and I went back to kpdf.
 I've decided to wait for a more mature kde release so that the number of
 quirks goes down and that I can take 5 minutes for reporting the
 leftovers rather than a hour I don't have.

I'll tell you what to do: simply, forget about Okular and about its 
maintainer. Okular will _not_ even be mature enough for you, so no need to 
even thinking about trying to use it in everyday work. It simply won't work.
This is a win-win solution: you avoid all the annoyance all around something 
you don't want, and I'll avoid trying to understand generic and encrypted 
problems (?) from you.

   (2) I'm not _required_ to report bugs[0]

Like I'm not _required_ to fix bugs, or I'm not _required_ to listen to users, 
or I'm not _required_ to try to make the applications I maintain better for 
some people.
See, even if I would do any of the above, my attempts would simply die if 
users raise walls in front of them.

   (4) I wasn't judging anyone in my previous mails, but now I am: if
   each time someones tells that they don't like okular you get
   outraged at this level, then you should really consider quitting.

Quitting? Do you see quitting as rationale solution when you face people 
with:
a) your application sucks!
b) your application is annoying, but I cannot tell you why
c) i *have* foo bar in your application

My reply is: No.

Let me ask you a final question: what would _you_ do if you heard about people 
complaining about what you do (example, the packages you maintain), but you 
get just generic complains about it, possibly referred indirectly by other 
people?
Then, whatever you reply to this, just take it as reply for all your 
complains.

-- 
Pino Toscano


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