Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-26 Thread Ana Guerrero
Hi Marc et all,

I will answer including also Qt 4 plans, that as you know is a quite
important part of KDE 4 :)

 * Which major upstream releases of KDE are expected in the next two
   years? Which of those are material for Debian stable, which might be a bit
   flaky?

About KDE
--

We currently have KDE 4.3.0 in unstable.
KDE 4.4 is expected about January 2010.
KDE 4.5 is expected about July 2010.

It is not a good idea to do more speculation about dates after this point
because in KDE they are also testing new release management methods. 

About flaky releases, usually 0 point releases have some bugs and any further 
point releases are highly preferred to ship in a Debian stable release.
In case of freezing with a .0 (or .1) release, we would like to be given the 
possibility of upload the next point releases given that point releases have so 
far contained fewer regressions than actual bug fixes.
Having a .2 or .3 point release would be the ideal.

We would like to mention that neither of us expected to release with KDE 4.3.X 
and we didn't give (nor will give now being late to the party) to it as much 
care as it probably needed to.

About Qt
-
We currently have Qt 4.5.2 in the archive and the development and expectations 
are on Qt 4.6. This release is expected about the end of this year or worse 
case, 
very early 2010.
Qt 4.6 will deliver an important set of new features (animation API, state 
machine 
framework), and important updates (graphics view, webkit, qtscript) [0]. 
Leaving 
4.6 outside of the next stable, would put Squeeze in an unsupported status of 
new 
Qt software for its entire life span.
It is also worth mentioning Qt 4.5.x doesn't support GCC 4.4 (and won't), Qt 
4.6 
will do. 
As with KDE the best is always shipping with a point release and Qt 4.6.1 is 
our 
minimal target.


 * How much time do you usually need from a new upstream release of KDE
   to a stable Debian package in unstable?

KDE releases the tarballs to packagers one week before release, so packagers
have time to prepare the packaging. We usually get something ready (with the
4.x releases) for release day, sometimes with some bugs, sometimes not. These
bugs are usually weeded out during a week or two after this.

For point releases, which is only bug fix releases, we usually get the
packaging fully right at first upload, which happens around release day.


 * How many big transitions will the upcoming changes cause? When should 
 those
   happen? Can we do something to make them easier?

We already have done most of the complicated stuff when moving from kde 3 to 
kde 4.
We have some stuff we would like to do but nothing too big or must do before 
next
release.


If we could plan the Debian release cycle completely after what would be good
for KDE, squeeze will freeze shortly after KDE 4.5.0 is uploaded to Debian
(July 2010) and the 4.5.x point releases would be allowed in.

KDE would have the possibility to take advantage of the new things in Qt4.6, 
and 
we would reach Qt4.6.2 or something like that on the Qt side.



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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-23 Thread Fathi Boudra
It's worth mentionning Qt 4.5.x doesn't support GCC 4.4 [1].
Qt 4.6 will add GCC 4.4 support.

[1] Qt breaks strict aliasing rules resulting in memory corruption and
miscompilation.

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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-23 Thread Sune Vuorela
Hi

In our response, I think we should really avoid mentioning at all a possible 
freeze in december 2009, as this is not what we are asked about.
We are asked about what we would like to see in a release and when we can get 
that.

So:
 * Which major upstream releases of KDE are expected in the next two
   years? Which of those are material for Debian stable, which might be a bit
   flaky?

KDE is currently releasing new feature versions in january and july, but they 
are also discussing their release management methods and plans.

We would expect KDE 4.4.0 in end of January 2010 and KDE 4.5.0 in end of July 
2010.

Each month after this, there is new bugfix releases of the latest version, at 
least until .3, and maybe a bit longer for .4. I don't think they have gotten 
to a .5 point release yet.

the .0 release has with 4.1.0 and 4.2.0 been a bit flaky. 4.3.0 has been a bit 
better in this regard, but we would still like to ship something like a .2 
release.

The release schedules of Qt is also relevant.  Qt4.6 is expected to arrive 
around christmas, and has some new nice features, but from a release point of 
view, it is the first release that is expected to build correctly  with gcc 
4.4.

 * How much time do you usually need from a new upstream release of KDE
   to a stable Debian package in unstable?

KDE releases the tarballs to packagers one week before release, so packagers 
have time to prepare the packaging. We usually get something ready (with the 
4.x releases) for release day, sometimes with some bugs, sometimes not. These 
bugs are usually weeded out during a week or two after this.

For point releases, which is only bugfix releases, we usually get the 
packaging fully right at first upload, which happens around release day.


 * How many big transitions will the upcoming changes cause? When should 
those
   happen? Can we do something to make them easier

A removal-transition of arts would be nice, but requires a package name change 
of kdelibs4c2a, as kdelibs4c2a changes ABI without arts.

Of each new upstream release (4.x), the kde4libs source package will probably 
have to break: kdebase-workspace-bin (  4.x), which generates a small mess, 
but nothing major is expected.

A .la file removal transition should be considered carefully regarding to apps 
using kde3 kdelibs.


If we could plan the Debian release cycle completely after what would be good 
for KDE, squeeze will freeze shortly after KDE 4.5.0 is uploaded to Debian 
(July 2010) and the .1 and .2 and .3 releases will be allowed into squeeze. 
Squeeze will release in November or December 2010. 

This will give us a whole lot of interesting features and also some of the 
tricky kmail bugs that only can be solved by a almost full rewrite will have 
happened, and KDE will have the possibility to take advantage of the new 
things in Qt4.6, and we will reach Qt4.6.2 or something like that on the Qt 
side.
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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-21 Thread Modestas Vainius
Hello,

On sekmadienis 16 Rugpjūtis 2009 22:27:12 Ana Guerrero wrote:
  As announced on dda [RT1], we want to get an impression when releasing
  Squeeze is feasible. We have proposed a (quite ambitious) freeze in
  December 2009, and some developers have noted that their planned changes
  wouldn't be possible in this time frame. So, to find out when releasing
  would work for most people, it would be great if you could answer the
  following questions:

Nobody from Debian Qt/KDE team has expected (or dreamt of) the freeze to 
happen so early hence the announcement was quite shocking. If we freeze in 
December 2009, squeeze will be stuck with KDE 4.3.{3,4} and Qt 4.5.3. Is this 
good or bad? Well, I don't see much to clap for here:

1) *Very* bad timing for Qt release. As it was pointed out, Debian will freeze 
with Qt 4.5 (basically EOLed upstream) and Qt 4.6 right around the corner. 
Given Qt major releases are rather slow (every ~8-10 months) and Debian stable 
actually releases with Qt 4.5 in late Q2 of 2010, that would be only 2-4 
months until Qt 4.7. So who is going care to about Qt 4.5 then? Nor upstream, 
nor users and it is a big question if we will.

2) Regarding KDE itself, actually 4.3.{3,4} is not the worst candidate for 
Debian stable from the KDE 4.3 series, probably the best. But is 4.3 series a 
good candidate for Debian stable? Frankly, quality of KDE 4.3.0 suggests KDE 4 
still needs some work on stability front: memory leaks, kwin cpu usage, io 
usage and plasma-desktop crashes / bugs. Some of this might be Xorg bugs as 
well. What is more, if we push Qt 4.6 into stable somehow, KDE 4.3 probably 
won't work well with it and given that the most probable candidate for 
flackiness is plasma, nobody should expect fixes for this from upstream. Hence 
the whole picture of KDE 4.3 desktop still looks lacking.

3) Some important features are still missing like usable network manager 
integration, root administration in systemsettings (and overall situation with 
policykit), completely broken nepomum/soprano. Not to mention that some 
important third party KDE applications (e.g. k3b) are not ported to KDE 4 yet 
or existing ports are lacking in features. Only time can resolve these 
problems.

4) unstable has been open for too short period of time. Remember, KDE 4 is a 
fresh thing in unstable/testing, 9 months of limited (and otherwise restricted 
by overall size of Qt/KDE and testing transitions since KDE links whole Debian 
together) testing is not enough. Not to mention that neither of us expected to 
release with KDE 4.3 and didn't give (nor will give now being late to the 
party) to it as much care as it probably needed to.

  * Which major upstream releases of KDE are expected in the next two
years? Which of those are material for Debian stable, which might be a
  bit flaky?

 We currently have KDE 4.3.0 in unstable and we will have at least a couple
 of point releases before this year ends.

 KDE 4.4 is expected about January 2010.
 KDE 4.5 is expected about July 2010.

 It is not a good idea to do more speculation about dates after this point
 because in KDE they are also testing new release management methods...

 About flaky releases, usually 0 point releases have some bugs and 1 point
 releases are highly preferred to ship in a Debian stable release.

Yes, Debian stable should not ship KDE or Qt .0 releases, .1 in the worst 
case, .2 or .3 would be perfect.

  * How much time do you usually need from a new upstream release of KDE
to a stable Debian package in unstable?

 Major releases:
 We usually are able to have the packages ready by the day of the release
 since we always get the final tarballs between 5-7 days before the release.
 In almost all the major releases, we need to put some stuff throught NEW
 and sometimes this is faster, sometimes it is not so fast.

Yes, stable Debian package does not take long but it is as stable as 
packaged upstream KDE is which is a big variable in early point releases.

  * How many big transitions will the upcoming changes cause? When should
  those happen? Can we do something to make them easier?

 Nothing I can think of now, we already have done most of the complicated
 stuff when moving from kde 3 to kde 4.

I agree, nothing very complicated remains.

 Something it would be very nice to do for Squeeze is killing more kde 3
 apps. Specially, some of the kde 3 apps that are not ported and have
 somehow a replacement in kde 4.  This is being doing slowly [0]. Anyway,
 with the current dates you are proposing, I am almost sure kdelibs(4c2a)
 from kde 3 will have to be kept for Squeeze (plus Qt 3, of course) and it
 will be hard because they are quite dead upstream...

Squeeze will and should ship KDE 3 libs / Qt 3. But the goal to get rid of as 
much KDE 3 / Qt 3 apps as possible is still important.

 What could be removed is arts (and we would love to), but it needs some
 work on it.

I don't understand why nobody considers splitting 

Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-18 Thread Ana Guerrero
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 09:17:38PM +0200, Mario Fux wrote:
 Am Montag, 17. August 2009 schrieb David Palacio:
 
  I want to highlight that Qt 4.6 will deliver an important set of new
  features (animation API, state machine framework), and important updates
  (graphics view, webkit, qtscript) [0]. Leaving 4.6 outside of the next
  stable, would put Squeeze in an unsupported status of new Qt software for
  it's entire life span.
 
  See [1] for an estimate of when we should expect a 4.6 release.
 
  [0] http://qt.nokia.com/developer/qt-roadmap
 
  [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1190545/qt-4-6-release-
  date/1190569#1190569
 
 See this blog on labs.trolltech.com/blogs about the release of Qt 4.6:
 http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/08/13/its-getting-colder/



Cool, so with a bit luck we will have Qt 4.6 sliglty before KDE 4.4.

Ana



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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-17 Thread David Palacio
 My thoughts... this is just a draft, add your thoughts/extra information or
 if you just agree, and we'll try to get a final mail.
 I would be nice if we hear from modax before sending anything too (he is in
 vac).

 On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 02:41:27PM +0200, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
  Heya,
 
  As announced on dda [RT1], we want to get an impression when releasing
  Squeeze is feasible. We have proposed a (quite ambitious) freeze in
  December 2009, and some developers have noted that their planned changes
  wouldn't be possible in this time frame. So, to find out when releasing
  would work for most people, it would be great if you could answer the
  following questions:

 I will answer your including also Qt 4 plans, that as you know is a quite
 important part for KDE 4 :)
 There is also a bunch of widely used kde apps that do not belong to KDE
 core, but they are leaf apps.

  * Which major upstream releases of KDE are expected in the next two
years? Which of those are material for Debian stable, which might be a
  bit flaky?

 We currently have KDE 4.3.0 in unstable and we will have at least a couple
 of point releases before this year ends.

 KDE 4.4 is expected about January 2010.
 KDE 4.5 is expected about July 2010.

 It is not a good idea to do more speculation about dates after this point
 because in KDE they are also testing new release management methods...

 About flaky releases, usually 0 point releases have some bugs and 1 point
 releases are highly preferred to ship in a Debian stable release.


 We currently have Qt 4.5.2 in the archive and if it even could get another
 point release, the development and expectations are on Qt 4.6.
 There is not public release schedule for Qt 4.6, but worse case scenario, I
 think there will be at least a pre-release by december. Qt 4.5 was released
 in March 2009, I really expect Qt 4.6 being release before Qt 4.5 is one
 year old.

 Whether KDE 4.4 will need Qt 4.6 or not, is still unknown, it depends a lot
 of Qt 4.6 release date.

  * How much time do you usually need from a new upstream release of KDE
to a stable Debian package in unstable?

 Major releases:
 We usually are able to have the packages ready by the day of the release
 since we always get the final tarballs between 5-7 days before the release.
 In almost all the major releases, we need to put some stuff throught NEW
 and sometimes this is faster, sometimes it is not so fast.

  * How many big transitions will the upcoming changes cause? When should
  those happen? Can we do something to make them easier?

 Nothing I can think of now, we already have done most of the complicated
 stuff when moving from kde 3 to kde 4.

 Something it would be very nice to do for Squeeze is killing more kde 3
 apps. Specially, some of the kde 3 apps that are not ported and have
 somehow a replacement in kde 4.  This is being doing slowly [0]. Anyway,
 with the current dates you are proposing, I am almost sure kdelibs(4c2a)
 from kde 3 will have to be kept for Squeeze (plus Qt 3, of course) and it
 will be hard because they are quite dead upstream...
 What could be removed is arts (and we would love to), but it needs some
 work on it.


 In summary:
 We would like a Squeeze release with KDE 4.4.0 at least (4.4.1 if possible)
 and Qt 4.6. For us december work quite *bad*, if you freeze  in december
 we'll have some kde 4.3.x and from january we'll be using 4.4, if the
 freeze last a few months (*), by July we will be using 4.6 and it will be
 quite hard to care about bugs in KDE 4.3.x, that will be from 2 releases
 ago

 (*) I am sorry but it is not crazy thinking about this happening...

 [0] http://wiki.debian.org/kdelibs4c2aRemoval

I want to highlight that Qt 4.6 will deliver an important set of new features 
(animation API, state machine framework), and important updates (graphics 
view, webkit, qtscript) [0]. Leaving 4.6 outside of the next stable, would put 
Squeeze in an unsupported status of new Qt software for it's entire life span.

See [1] for an estimate of when we should expect a 4.6 release.

[0] http://qt.nokia.com/developer/qt-roadmap

[1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1190545/qt-4-6-release-
date/1190569#1190569

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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-16 Thread Ana Guerrero


My thoughts... this is just a draft, add your thoughts/extra information or if
you just agree, and we'll try to get a final mail.
I would be nice if we hear from modax before sending anything too (he is in
vac).

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 02:41:27PM +0200, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
 Heya,
 
 As announced on dda [RT1], we want to get an impression when releasing
 Squeeze is feasible. We have proposed a (quite ambitious) freeze in December
 2009, and some developers have noted that their planned changes wouldn't be
 possible in this time frame. So, to find out when releasing would work for
 most people, it would be great if you could answer the following questions:


I will answer your including also Qt 4 plans, that as you know is a quite
important part for KDE 4 :)
There is also a bunch of widely used kde apps that do not belong to KDE
core, but they are leaf apps.

 * Which major upstream releases of KDE are expected in the next two
   years? Which of those are material for Debian stable, which might be a bit
   flaky?
 

We currently have KDE 4.3.0 in unstable and we will have at least a couple of 
point
releases before this year ends.

KDE 4.4 is expected about January 2010.
KDE 4.5 is expected about July 2010.

It is not a good idea to do more speculation about dates after this point
because in KDE they are also testing new release management methods...

About flaky releases, usually 0 point releases have some bugs and 1 point
releases are highly preferred to ship in a Debian stable release.


We currently have Qt 4.5.2 in the archive and if it even could get another
point release, the development and expectations are on Qt 4.6.
There is not public release schedule for Qt 4.6, but worse case scenario, I
think there will be at least a pre-release by december. Qt 4.5 was released in
March 2009, I really expect Qt 4.6 being release before Qt 4.5 is one year
old.

Whether KDE 4.4 will need Qt 4.6 or not, is still unknown, it depends a lot of 
Qt 4.6 release date.

 * How much time do you usually need from a new upstream release of KDE
   to a stable Debian package in unstable?


Major releases:
We usually are able to have the packages ready by the day of the release since
we always get the final tarballs between 5-7 days before the release.
In almost all the major releases, we need to put some stuff throught NEW and 
sometimes this is faster, sometimes it is not so fast.


 * How many big transitions will the upcoming changes cause? When should 
 those
   happen? Can we do something to make them easier?
 

Nothing I can think of now, we already have done most of the complicated stuff
when moving from kde 3 to kde 4.

Something it would be very nice to do for Squeeze is killing more kde 3 apps.
Specially, some of the kde 3 apps that are not ported and have somehow a 
replacement 
in kde 4.  This is being doing slowly [0]. Anyway, with the current dates you
are proposing, I am almost sure kdelibs(4c2a) from kde 3 will have to be kept 
for Squeeze (plus Qt 3, of course) and it will be hard because they are quite 
dead upstream...
What could be removed is arts (and we would love to), but it needs some work on 
it.


In summary:
We would like a Squeeze release with KDE 4.4.0 at least (4.4.1 if possible) and
Qt 4.6. For us december work quite *bad*, if you freeze  in december we'll
have some kde 4.3.x and from january we'll be using 4.4, if the freeze last a
few months (*), by July we will be using 4.6 and it will be quite hard to care
about bugs in KDE 4.3.x, that will be from 2 releases ago

(*) I am sorry but it is not crazy thinking about this happening...

[0] http://wiki.debian.org/kdelibs4c2aRemoval


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Re: KDE plans for the squeeze cycle

2009-08-16 Thread Kevin Krammer
I mostly agree with Ana's comments, but I think I have a couple of additions.

I can't be certain but I would bet that KDE 4.4 will not depend on Qt4.6 
unless there is at least a release candiate of 4.6 at the time of KDE soft 
feature freeze (actually that would have to be very soon, it would probably be 
hard to remove 4.6 dependencies).

Personally I like the idea of going for a very late patch release of a KDE 
release, e.g. the latest 4.3 because 4.4 will very likely introduce a lot of 
new stuff.

Speaking as a KDEPIM developer, 4.4 is the release we are currently targeting 
or addressbook and calendar porting to Akonadi [1].
This is very nice for us as developers, however there are still issues for 
certain types of deployment, mainly because non of the embedded style database 
backends (SQLite, MySQL/Embedded) qualify for being our (Akonadi's) default 
yet.

Cheers,
Kevin

[1] Some functionality might even depend on Nepomuk

-- 
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KDE user support, developer mentoring


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