Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 09:51:38 AM you wrote: Correction, browser versions were supplied, I meant to say without screen shots with browser versions . And knowing which OS may be useful too. OS: knoppix 7.2 --- screenshots: http://dev1.insteps.net/test/pmwiki.org-ff-140113.png http://dev1.insteps.net/test/pmwiki.org-chrome-140113.png Any cleanup/changes to default skin is welcome, but starting with a pmwiki-exp.css and some testing would be nice. - Offtopic: There were some discussion of moving to git/github of current svn repo. Any thoughts? -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 09:18:32PM -0700, Simon wrote: I think it is unfortunate that we have reverted a change to PmWiki that arguably fixed a bug in PmWiki,css (mixing fixed and variable font-sizes) on unsubstantiated evidence (apologies V Krishn - but without screen shots and browser versions it is difficult to verify your claim). I didn't need any additional evidence to substantiate things -- I've experienced this exact situation myself in many projects (switching from fixed to variable font-sizes causes the layout to look radically different in some browsers). Indeed, one of the primary reasons that PmWiki's skin mixes font-size specifiers is because at the time there was great variation in browsers' handling of font-size specifications. This seems to be indicating a precedent that not changing the way PmWiki looks is of higher importance that fixing bugs, my 2¢. There's precedent, but this isn't setting it. It's long been a core philosophy that minor revision releases in PmWiki should minimize breakage of existing sites in upgrades. See PmWikiPhilosophy #5. In this case we also identified a different path to improvement that doesn't require breakage... by developing a new skin or CSS file alternative that can be bundled with PmWiki. This provides a much more flexible and stable upgrade path. Lastly, I agree fully with Petko that PmWiki's current .css doesn't indicate a bug in the normal sense of the term -- it's mainly a difference of opinion in design choices, similar to choosing to use tables (or avoid them) when creating a skin layout. As with many things in PmWiki, the core is flexible enough that you can change the defaults in places where your situation wants or requires something different. Pm ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
I think it is unfortunate that we have reverted a change to PmWiki that arguably fixed a bug in PmWiki,css (mixing fixed and variable font-sizes) on unsubstantiated evidence (apologies V Krishn - but without screen shots and browser versions it is difficult to verify your claim). This seems to be indicating a precedent that not changing the way PmWiki looks is of higher importance that fixing bugs, my 2¢. Simon On 13 January 2014 08:10, V.Krishn vkris...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, January 13, 2014 05:44:25 AM Petko Yotov wrote: Patrick R. Michaud writes: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. I have reverted the changes in the pmwiki.css file and released 2.2.60. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. If we add a new skin or even a new css file, in the same logic we shouldn't change it later. For that reason, before adding it to the core, let's agree on what it should contain. Besides font-size units, any other changes that are required (tableless? RWD?). If improved CSS, responsive design... etc are being considered, can we start with pmwiki-exp skin and add features gradually. This could well become pmwiki3 skin. -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
Correction, browser versions were supplied, I meant to say without screen shots with browser versions . And knowing which OS may be useful too. ta Simon On 28 January 2014 21:18, Simon nzsk...@gmail.com wrote: I think it is unfortunate that we have reverted a change to PmWiki that arguably fixed a bug in PmWiki,css (mixing fixed and variable font-sizes) on unsubstantiated evidence (apologies V Krishn - but without screen shots and browser versions it is difficult to verify your claim). This seems to be indicating a precedent that not changing the way PmWiki looks is of higher importance that fixing bugs, my 2¢. Simon On 13 January 2014 08:10, V.Krishn vkris...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, January 13, 2014 05:44:25 AM Petko Yotov wrote: Patrick R. Michaud writes: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. I have reverted the changes in the pmwiki.css file and released 2.2.60. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. If we add a new skin or even a new css file, in the same logic we shouldn't change it later. For that reason, before adding it to the core, let's agree on what it should contain. Besides font-size units, any other changes that are required (tableless? RWD?). If improved CSS, responsive design... etc are being considered, can we start with pmwiki-exp skin and add features gradually. This could well become pmwiki3 skin. -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
Simon writes: I think it is unfortunate that we have reverted a change to PmWiki that arguably fixed a bug in PmWiki,css (mixing fixed and variable font-sizes) on unsubstantiated evidence (apologies V Krishn - but without screen shots and browser versions it is difficult to verify your claim). This seems to be indicating a precedent that not changing the way PmWiki looks is of higher importance that fixing bugs, my 2¢. Sorry. Using valid CSS units is not a bug. The pmwiki.css file is valid CSS and contains no bugs, see: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F %2Fwww.pmwiki.org%2Fpmwiki%2Fpub%2Fskins%2Fpmwiki%2Fpmwiki.css No error found If the units bother you so much, it is very easy to create your own skin, or use one from the cookbook. Very few of the sites listed at PmWikiUsers or SuccessStories use the default skin, maybe for a reason. Also, if the two versions look exactly the same to you and me, the change didn't change anything and was unnecessary. :-) It is really possible that some users experience change in the sizes. A browser respecting the CSS standard to the letter, must display the 11pt font sizes exactly 11/72 of an inch or 3.88 millimeters regardless of the screen size (smartphone or full wall projection screen) or the zoom level selected by the user. It appears that for (your and my) current browsers, readability and confort for the user is of higher importance than the respect of the standard, so they display it at 11/12 of the default size for that screen and for the selected zoom level. Petko ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
Look at how Wordpress has vastly improved the look of the default skins it provides over its lifetime. However, it also has explicitly changed the name of the skins, and provided version numbers for them. Could we give an explicit version number to the default PmWiki skin going forward, and separate the skin from the wiki itself? They shouldn't be tightly bound (perhaps they are, but I would hope not). While we're on the subject of consistency -- how about moving all of the styles used in a default install into the css files? There are still wiki-style definitions (eg, http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/GroupHeader) that can't be easily obviously targeted by a skin because they're hidden in header files, etc. While it is important to show markup examples in action, perhaps they could be limited to their own pages, so that something like PmWiki/BasicEditing is not dependent upon them. -Michael Paulukonis http://www.xradiograph.com http://goog_2112721603Interference Patterns (a blog)http://www.xradiograph.com%5Cinterference @XraysMonaLisa https://twitter.com/XraysMonaLisa http://michaelpaulukonis.com http://www.BestAndroidResources.com Sent from somewhere in the Cloud (hearthrug, by the fender) On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:10 AM, V.Krishn vkris...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, January 13, 2014 05:44:25 AM Petko Yotov wrote: Patrick R. Michaud writes: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. I have reverted the changes in the pmwiki.css file and released 2.2.60. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. If we add a new skin or even a new css file, in the same logic we shouldn't change it later. For that reason, before adding it to the core, let's agree on what it should contain. Besides font-size units, any other changes that are required (tableless? RWD?). If improved CSS, responsive design... etc are being considered, can we start with pmwiki-exp skin and add features gradually. This could well become pmwiki3 skin. -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
On Monday, January 13, 2014 05:44:25 AM Petko Yotov wrote: Patrick R. Michaud writes: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. I have reverted the changes in the pmwiki.css file and released 2.2.60. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. If we add a new skin or even a new css file, in the same logic we shouldn't change it later. For that reason, before adding it to the core, let's agree on what it should contain. Besides font-size units, any other changes that are required (tableless? RWD?). If improved CSS, responsive design... etc are being considered, can we start with pmwiki-exp skin and add features gradually. This could well become pmwiki3 skin. -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
V.Krishn writes: Noticed that page fontsize on: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/ChangeLog now look different on chrome (27.0) and firefox (21) (seemed same earlier) Hope this is not related to css changes in v2.2.59 ? The change of CSS units only affects the default skin. For the same browser, before and after the change, the font-sizes should be the same. It is possible that that size is not the same from one browser to another, especially when Firefox and Chrome remember the last zoom you have used on a site - I tend to zoom out when I browse. When I go to View-Zoom-Reset and Menu-Zoom-100% I see the same size. Petko ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:04:32AM +0530, V.Krishn wrote: Noticed that page fontsize on: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/ChangeLog now look different on chrome (27.0) and firefox (21) (seemed same earlier) Hope this is not related to css changes in v2.2.59 ? Yes, I was more than a little concerned about the CSS changes. Changing font-sizes from pt to pct isn't always a direct (or safe) match for every browser, not to mention that there may be user customizations that depend on PmWiki having the CSS specified a particular way. I'd prefer to see PmWiki core revert back to the CSS stylings it's had for a long time now. If we want to have a cleaned up default css stylesheet, maybe add a new skin to the core, but leave the existing on the way it's been for years now. Pm ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). With a mixture it makes it considerably harder to scale the PmWiki skin, for example for the range of modern device types. With all variable font-size we are slightly more responsive in design. If PmWiki itself has a different (older) skin from an improved cleaner one in the distribution, I'd support that. Simon On 13 January 2014 10:02, Patrick R. Michaud pmich...@pobox.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:04:32AM +0530, V.Krishn wrote: Noticed that page fontsize on: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/ChangeLog now look different on chrome (27.0) and firefox (21) (seemed same earlier) Hope this is not related to css changes in v2.2.59 ? Yes, I was more than a little concerned about the CSS changes. Changing font-sizes from pt to pct isn't always a direct (or safe) match for every browser, not to mention that there may be user customizations that depend on PmWiki having the CSS specified a particular way. I'd prefer to see PmWiki core revert back to the CSS stylings it's had for a long time now. If we want to have a cleaned up default css stylesheet, maybe add a new skin to the core, but leave the existing on the way it's been for years now. Pm ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
PS I would have to say they look pretty much identical to me on firefox http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/copperkiwi/pmwiki/2014-01-1311_43_16-PmWiki_PmWiki_ChangeLogFirefox_zpsdddad581.png and chrome http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/copperkiwi/pmwiki/2014-01-1311_42_44-PmWiki_PmWiki_ChangeLogChrome_zpsd01feb00.png On 13 January 2014 07:34, V.Krishn vkris...@gmail.com wrote: Noticed that page fontsize on: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/ChangeLog now look different on chrome (27.0) and firefox (21) (seemed same earlier) Hope this is not related to css changes in v2.2.59 ? -- Regards. V.Krishn ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. Pm ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
Re: [pmwiki-devel] current font sizes
Patrick R. Michaud writes: On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:38:53AM +1300, Simon wrote: I would be reluctant to see this changed back. I consider it more problematical having a mixture of fixed and variable width spacing for font-size (the only CSS attribute we are discussing here). IMO, it's definitely more problematical for a PmWiki upgrade to do things that break existing sites. I have reverted the changes in the pmwiki.css file and released 2.2.60. Since there's a way to get to the desired result (improved CSS for new sites, easy for existing sites to switch to the cleaner design if desired) by simply including a new skin (or even just an improved CSS file) in the distribution, we should do that. If we add a new skin or even a new css file, in the same logic we shouldn't change it later. For that reason, before adding it to the core, let's agree on what it should contain. Besides font-size units, any other changes that are required (tableless? RWD?). Petko ___ pmwiki-devel mailing list pmwiki-devel@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-devel
