Replies to:

"Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says"
http://www.politechbot.com/p-02524.html

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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:51:51 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Esther Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll
   says
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

does anyone notice what they call in the trade "leading questions?

How about, "Should individuals and businesses be allowed to use encryption 
to prevent penetration of their computers and communications by terrorists?

Esther Dyson

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From: Bosley_J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:19:27 -0400

Declan, as a recovering survey researcher I have to express some doubt that
a random sample of the general public has sufficient understanding of
encryption and/or how reducing same would "aid" the CIA/FBI for these
results to be at all valid.

John Bosley

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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:54:43 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Lizard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll
   says
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Some better questions:

"Since the government can't keep hackers from defacing government web 
sites, do you feel secure that they'll be able to keep encryption keys safe?"

"Given the prescence of spies, such as Aldrich Ames, at the highest levels 
of government, is it really a good idea to allow broad access to 
communication?"

"Cops in LA have been shown to have planted evidence in order to convict 
people they have personal vendettas against. Do you want them to be able to 
read your email without even a warrant?"

"Recently, entertainment companies have begun to encrypt music and DVDs. 
These encryption schemes are usually 'cracked' within days, if not hours. 
Since the best programmers work for high-paying corporations, not 
low-paying government agencies, do you really trust any encryption scheme 
the government will event?"

"If you feel 'Only people with something to hide support encryption', 
please post the full contents of your hard disk to an FTP site. Including 
things like your Quicken files, your personal love letters, and all the 
cookies from all web sites you visit. Yes, including that one. Especially 
including that one, you naughty little devil, you!"

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From: "Jones, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:38:54 -0400

IMO, This survey and the referenced debate shows that too many people have a
superstitious faith in technology.  This obsession clouds the thinking and
obscures the real work that must be don, in most situations.  In the current
instance, there have been no reports of evidence that technology had
anything to do with the attack on the WTC.  it is unlikely that Bin Laden or
the Taleban used an Internet chat room to recruit the suicide squad.

The idea that Carnivore or any other electronic eavesdropping can produce
the kind of intelligence needed to stop such attacks is ludicrous -- by all
reports, Afghanistan has been bombed back into the stone age already.
Internet cafes are probably scarce.

The focus on technology means our intelligence and law enforcement will be
able to monitor us more closely, which has not been proven to be necessary.
What is needed is monitoring of our enemies by means of human agents, who
will be the only effective means to identify further plans for terrorist
attacks.

Encryption keys will not help an intelligence community that ignores
explicit warnings and publicly stated threats.

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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:55:01 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Michael F. Reusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll
   says
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

At 11:26 PM 9/17/01 -0400, you wrote:

 >Unfortunately for the clarity of debate here, the
 >ban-crypto-without-backdoors question is poorly worded ("Should Encryption
 >Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?"), but then again I suspect
 >most people figured it out. This poll is noteworthy not only for what it
 >found, but that the pollsters included the crypto question in the first
 >place. It shows that, all of a sudden, this has become a serious debate in
 >Washington.

Declan,

I suspect that most of the people responding to this poll had only a vague
understanding of encryption and that a similarily loaded question like
"Should Neutrino Shielding Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?"
would get a similar, knee-jerk response, given our present circumstances.

Regards,

     Michael

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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:15:24 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Carl Ellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll
   says
Cc: DCCP list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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At 11:26 PM 9/17/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >How Much Would The Following Prevent Similar Terrorist Attacks?
 >                       Very Somewhat Not Too Much Not At All
 >Reduce encryption to
 >aid CIA/FBI             35       37          12         9
 >
 >
 >Should Encryption Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?
 >    Yes No
 >    54% 39%

The way they asked these questions, I'd have to vote "yes" too.

The thing they're missing from the question is that you have no
control over the S/W used by terrorists.  So, to ask the questions
properly, you need to ask:

"Reduce the encryption of Americans but not that of terrorosts, to
aid CIA/FBI"

"Should Americans' legal ability to use encryption be reduced, given
that terrorists can continue to use strong cryptography?"


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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:27:39 +0100
From: Simon Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Eighth Layer Limited
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says

Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >
 > Unfortunately for the clarity of debate here, the
 > ban-crypto-without-backdoors question is poorly worded ("Should Encryption
 > Laws Be Reduced To Aid CIA/FBI Surveillance?"), but then again I suspect
 > most people figured it out.

The question is so badly worded that it is almost useless, in my
opinion. Encryption laws would have to be increased, and some
people will vote for less laws whatever.

Just look at the various other proposals to alter the law;

Removal of ban on political assassination.
Removal of ban on Intelligence funding of unsavory characters.

These laws were imposed as they were seen to be necessary at the
time. The US intelligence community was behind Bin Laden when he
was killing Soviet soldiers, and he is just the kind of person
the second of these laws was introduced to help stop.

The use of encryption has previously been ruled to be covered by
the first amendment, and is just the kind of "essential liberty"
needed to prevent Governments becoming tyrannies.

That this law also seems to provide some solace or point of
refuge for the terrorist is because the law is aimed at
protecting liberty, and liberty allows you to do bad things if
you choose. Given that Afghanistan has been outlawing Internet
use I doubt modern encryption played a big part in this
incident, unless possibly it refers to the ability to intercept
telephone conversations.

Given the reports that some of the terrorists were on an FBI
list, and used their own names when boarding the aircraft leads
one to wonder if perhaps we should look at how well we use
existing intelligence before we start giving the intelligence
community more powers.

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From: "Dale Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:05:51

Declan:

Why would anyone volunteer to knowingly have their freedoms and privacy 
reduced just so that can continue to enjoy their freedoms? This is an 
twisted, confused and insane paradox!

There is a presumption implanted in the question that the "war against the 
osoma ben badguy" is utterly dependent on elimination of privacy - -ie: 
choice and to that extent freedom. That's simply BS!

Those who prefer to abdicate their freedoms and privacy to the feds - for 
any reason - simply have no respect for the rich lessons found in history. 
That's why Benjamin Franklin said: "Those who would trade their liberty for 
security deserve neither!"

However, I will very sadly observe that for the first time in history we 
have an American nation who in its majority for its daily bread looks not 
in the mirror but rather faces east to that pathetically polluted would be 
panacea on the Potomac and after falling to our knees, pray that our daily 
bread will continue to arrive. We've been seduced!

In the latter case, it is easy to understand why the whims of government 
seemingly carry with them the imperative of obedience while supplicating 
choice, privacy, individual freedom and liberty itself.

If it is security you want, then I will suggest that you petition the 
government to lock you up - - and then you will "enjoy" a nearly perfect 
security!

Have we Americans sold our soul for a mess of pottage?

Dale Robertson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:08:43 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "A.Lizard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll
   says

>http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/business/docs/bizletters16.htm
>Headline inflammatory
>2001-09-17 05:45:23
>
>I hope, in light of this terrible tragedy, that Dan Gillmor will cease his 
>whining about personal privacy and recognize that our national security 
>and the safety of our citizens override his concern about privacy, ``We 
>have been tested before and survived: Don't let criminals shut down our 
>freedoms'' (Aug. 12). The government absolutely must have the ability to 
>monitor all encrypted messages, and anyone sending or receiving encrypted 
>messages on our soil that cannot be decoded by the appropriate federal 
>agency must be subject to arrest and seizure of the encryption equipment. 
>We are at war, and we all, including Gillmor, need to recognize that.
>Al Colby
>Corralitos

No crypto means no e-commerce. Crypto with back doors get broken *quickly*, 
and the first bunch of people who find their credit card numbers spread all 
over the Net because they had misguided confidence in a "back doored" 
system recommended by the government and idiots like you will be screaming 
their heads off to the media. Or did you want the government to force the 
media to silence over "little" problems like that?

If the government permanently wipes out e-commerce as you want it to do, 
this will do even more damage to the economy than losing a dozen World 
Trade Centers. The enemies of America would like this, and if we lose 
crypto in the name of security, only they will have reason to celebrate. A 
strong economy both makes us terror targets AND gives us the ability to *do 
something about them*. You think this a bad thing?

Let's recast your statement in an older technology:
"The government must be able to open all our (US) mail without warrant or 
reasonable cause."

Can you figure out what's wrong with that without help?

The only reason why Americans support ending useful encryption is that 
they've been fed disinformation instead of facts and the mass media 
swallowed it and regurgitated it to the public without questions. If the 
question were recast:

"Would you be willing to risk a major depression due to anti-crypto laws 
created to make personal privacy on the Internet impossible?",
who would favor it?

As for the terrorists, guess what? There are places to get crypto outside 
the USA. All making crypto software illegal in the US will accomplish is to 
move corporations and private citizens to non-US crypto software. If you 
think you'll get the whole world to sign off on a "crypto ILLEGAL" policy, 
think again.

        *** Yes, we are at war. Who's side are you on? ***

A.Lizard

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Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:59:52 -0700
From: Troy Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Majority of Americans want anti-encryption laws, poll says

On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:26:24PM -0400, Declan McCullagh 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 > Also note that 72 percent of those surveyed said anti-encryption laws would
 > be "somewhat" or "very" helpful in preventing similar terrorist attacks.

[snip]

 > U.S. Put Arabs and Arab-Americans Under Special Surveillance?
 >     Agree Disagree
 >     32%   62%

32% of respondants think that Arab-Americans should be under special
surveillance?  That's a mind-numbing stat and, if statistically valid,
makes me ashamed to be an American (and unwilling to trust other opinions
of that 32%).

Disgustedly,

Troy

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