[political-research] Re: Paying for the Crimes of Germans
Good lord. This has happened every single time I've seen a simple question asked: why should Palestinians pay for the crimes of Europeans? How can Europeans (and other peoples) demand that Arabs, Muslims and Christians in the Mideast accept a Zionist state, when they themselves would violently resist the creation of such a state on their own territories? Shouldn't those nations which were responsible for the Holocaust pay the price of hosting, supporting and protecting the state of Israel? Instead a getting a direct and reasonable answer to a direct and perfectly reasonable question, I was accused of supporting Iranian Islamists. When have I ever done anything but express the strongest possible revulsion for the current Iranian government and Islamism in general? I intensely dislike all forms of religious fundamentalism and theocratic government. One of the reasons I opposed the Iraq War was because it was obvious that it would radically shift the balance of power in the Mideast in favor of Iran. It's obvious that one of the core questions about the legitimacy and fairness of Zionism simply can't be answered by anyone. But that shouldn't stop any of us from exercising our analytical intelligence on the implications of the failure to provide an answer. The implications are quite probably going to be horrific for the Mideast and the entire world. It is impossible to bully into submission a people who feel from the bottom of their hearts, at the root of their being, and justly so, by any objective measure, that they have been the victims of a terrible injustice. The United States has been maneuvered by the Israel lobby into supporting an indefensible project that may well lead to its own ruination. The only remaining enthusiastic supporters of this venture are neoconservatives and Christian Armageddonists who are eager to instigate the destruction of the United States and the entire world as soon as possible. George W. Bush is one of them. Germany played a key role in setting these events in motion. I seriously wonder if Germany shouldn't do the right thing and offer to move the entire state of Israel to an equivalent territorial area within its own borders. Until it sincerely makes such an offer, German leaders have nothing useful to say about the march towards Armageddon in the Mideast. Any kind of sermonizing and lecturing is especially inappropriate, including that coming from the current pope. LeaNder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice, how you mirror my words back to me. In a way it is a perfectsign for the fact that we will be moving in circles in this debate.You: in insisting on an answer I can't give and me: expressingamazement that democrats support the position of not so democraticforces. And that is the basic problem I have in this affair. I do notlike war, but have to live with the paradox that I thank god theAmericans joined the Allied forces in WWII. Gave me a chance to growup in a free country if you do not look to closely into thecontinuations of the basic structures and personnel.What if I do not like the propaganda of either side?Doesn't it bother you a bit that Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust too?Should I join the far-right to support him? What if their positionmakes me sick? Over here they discovered Jesus as the ultimatelyrevolutionary force against the bad Anglo-Zionist-money-makers. Howutterly insincere. All they want is that Germanproperty belongs to Germans only.How comes you support democracy at home and someone likeAmadinejad In Iran? Or is it this the position of a realist only?Yes many people considered Zionism a dangerous idea, including manyJewish Germans like Leon Feuchtwanger. But quite possibly he changedhis mind, when he realized the full scope of the German annihilationmachinery. If the British army hadn't stopped Rommels in El Alameinwe might not have the "problem" today.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_AlameinThe fact that the diverse Protocol fictions of the 1920's feign aconnection to the real Zionist congress in Basle doesn't makes thingseasier to penetrate. It's a simple fact that the Zionists wereright in deciding to leave Germany early, as it is easy to understandthat some survivors went there. And that they are all over the Arabworld including in soap opera version, is just as frightening to me,as the US-Israel scenario.I admit I am a bit confused on the issue, and it always depends onwhat perspective I take. If I think in long historical periods, I amfirmly on the Israeli side, since I can recognize recurring patterns.Much feels very familiar, with slight modifications. This obviouslydoes not help to resolve the Palestinian crux.If I look at the "now" only, I do not like the separate listing ofantisemitic incidents, I would prefer to see a database of allincidents,
[political-research] Re: Paying for the Crimes of Germans
Germany played a key role in setting these events in motion. I seriously wonder if Germany shouldn't do the right thing and offer to move the entire state of Israel to an equivalent territorial area within its own borders. Until it sincerely makes such an offer, German leaders have nothing useful to say about the march towards Armageddon in the Mideast. Any kind of sermonizing and lecturing is especially inappropriate, including that coming from the current pope. This is something that will never happen, as you know. It would need a series of steps, the first had to be to accept that Israel has no right to exist. What you ask for could only follow from that. ... Not really a Realpolitik scenario? It is happening in the US, Sean. These are US hawks. That Israel supports them should not come as a big surprise. Could Bush start another war without any consent from senate or congress? What about the other pillars of your democracy? Popes never stopped wars. -b Search the archives for political-research at http://www.terazen.com/ Subscribe to the RSS feed for political-research at http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/political-research/rss YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "political-research" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[political-research] Re: Paying for the Crimes of Germans
We seem to be at an impasse at this point. Since Germans and Europeans, who were responsible as a culture for the Holocaust, are not willing to hand over any of their territory for the creation of a Zionist state, I fail to understand how they are in a moral position to demand that any other peoples do so. While I strongly disagree with the Iranian president on nearly everything, on this particular issue I think he managed to touch on a point so sensitive, but so necessary to answer in a satisfactory way, that it has been systematically censored in the Western mainstream media. I very much wish that the Palestinians and their Arab and Muslim neighbors would just roll over and accept whatever Israel dishes out to them, without a complaint. But since I know that Americans would never tolerate such abuse, I find myself unable to preach to them from a lofty moral perch about the virtues of submission. I'll wager that many Americans and Europeans feel this way, which is why their support for Israel is so shaky, so qualified, so unenthusiastic. They wish Jews well in Israel, but at the same time they don't want to become embroiled in destructive Mideast conflicts on the basis of policies that are impossible to defend from the standpoint of strict justice and logic. My best guess is that the Zionist experiment is going to end with the genocidal annihilation of hundreds of millions of people by nuclear and/or biological weapons. Neither side is going to back down. Both sides are being driven by the most fanatical impulses and archetypes in the monotheistic tradition. There is a better way -- the American Founding Fathers articulated it. That better way is being undermined and destroyed by the work of pro-Israel lobbyists like Daniel Pipes, David Horowitz and Michael Ledeen, and their immense support network in both major political parties, the mainstream media and much of the alternative media.LeaNder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Germany played a key role in setting these events in motion. Iseriously wonder if Germany shouldn't do the right thing and offer tomove the entire state of Israel to an equivalent territorial areawithin its own borders. Until it sincerely makes such an offer,German leaders have nothing useful to say about the march towardsArmageddon in the Mideast. Any kind of sermonizing and lecturing isespecially inappropriate, including that coming from the current pope.This is something that will never happen, as you know. It would need a series of steps, the first had to be to acceptthat Israel has no right to exist. What you ask for could onlyfollow from that. ... Not really a Realpolitik scenario?It is happening in the US, Sean. These are US hawks. That Israel supports them should not come as a big surprise. Could Bush start another war without any consent from senate orcongress? What about the other pillars of your democracy?Popes never stopped wars.-b Search the archives for political-research at http://www.terazen.com/ Subscribe to the RSS feed for political-research at http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/political-research/rss SPONSORED LINKS Business intelligence Competitive intelligence Market intelligence Emotional intelligence Military intelligence Critical thinking YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "political-research" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
