Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
To add on to Richard's comment: One other vital purpose of P2 at this point is for backwards-compatibility with OSM's significant percentage of IE users. iD isn't IE<10 compatible and realistically cannot be, so having P2 and other editors as options is essential. Also, P2 is still a more advanced editor than iD and it's not clear that iD will ever be as advanced for certain things. Richard points out external vector sources, and I'd add on manual relation editing - iD will probably try to handle certain relation-cases in UI-wrapped ways first. That and of course, P2 is where we find smart implementations of everything related to OSM. Re: some of Steve's questions - - are the internals at all similar to Potlatch?... Yes and no - there's a similar concept of actions. Map rendering and the data structure are entirely different. A few of the operations/algorithms are directly ported from P2. Currently iD uses a converted version of P2's imagery.xml file, but we'll probably switch to JOSM's or another source. - is there a specified direction or policy on what kinds of advanced features will be allowed in? Is iD intended only as a beginners' editor? Can advanced features be included? Yes, there are some advanced features. We're okay with sophisticated features as long as they do not interrupt the gradual learning curve. So, basic UX ground rules like 'everything must be mouse-accessible', 'no unnecessary complicated terms', and so on. Hard to say much more than that that's a hard and fast rule - it really goes feature-by-feature as far as what's possibly intimidating versus what's user-friendly. - has there been any discussion about an openstreetmap.org version vs a MapBox version? Perhaps the former would have a different policy on the previous question... There are no plans (internal or external) about a 'MapBox version'. It's an open source project, and the #1 goal is to get it on osm.org as a default editor, for OSM, and to have a large base of contributors and users. Tom -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Potlatch-dev-Status-of-potlatch2-development-tp5746990p5751501.html Sent from the Potlatch mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> So, the question is: what purpose does P2 serve when iD is live and the
> default?
>
> I think there's two principal niches. One is working with third-party data,
> as per Snapshot Server and vector background layers. P2 does this very well
> and there's no support for it in iD. P2 looks like it'll be the go-to
> solution for projects like the DfT cycling data for a while yet.
>
> Secondly, there's simply the comfort of editing. I find P2 to be a very
> efficient and enjoyable editor to work with, which is perhaps not too
> surprising, but there are plenty of others who think so too. A comparable
> spot in the editor market to Merkaartor, if you like. But we do need to be
> aware that Flash Player is no longer a given, and I suspect that in a year's
> time, market penetration even on the desktop will be lucky to hit 80%.
>
> That second reason means that, for me at least, the priority is to get a
> version of P2 up and running on Adobe AIR. We can, of course, still have an
> online build too (especially for the third-party data use) and I see no
> reason why P2 can't continue as a selectable option on the osm.org Edit
> drop-down. Exasperatingly, AIR on Linux is limited to version 2.6, which I
> think equates to Flash Player 10.3.
Thanks for the update on this interesting situation. I haven't played
with iD until just now. The GUI looks excellent, and I love the modal
editing (press 2 then click to create a POI - no fiddly double
clicking). Looks like no tag templates ("features") yet, but
presumably underway. So, it looks like I'm not in either niche, and
will presumably switch to iD soon.
A few questions then about iD development:
- are the internals at all similar to Potlatch? Is it feasible to port
any features (ie, back-end node/way manipulations) over? I know
ActionScript isn't exactly JavaScript, but...
- is there a specified direction or policy on what kinds of advanced
features will be allowed in? Is iD intended only as a beginners'
editor? Can advanced features be included?
- has there been any discussion about an openstreetmap.org version vs
a MapBox version? Perhaps the former would have a different policy on
the previous question...
> For the small remaining time that P2 is the default editor on osm.org, I'm
> happy to - indeed, would seek to - remain the maintainer of that instance.
> Any pull requests that can be instantly and confidently merged, I will (and
> do) merge promptly. Anything that requires a day's work for me to understand
> isn't going to happen; I can't afford to give a day away like that.
Here's a couple I prepared earlier:
1)
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/66
It fixes a centroid calculation bug. You can very quickly verify that
it works and doesn't catastrophically fail.
2)
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/58/files
This will not unduly tax your cerebral resources.
3)
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/49
Stylistic considerations aside, this is an easy one.
4)
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/36
Aesthetic considerations aside, this is also easy.
I will grant you that the following pull requests are non-trivial to
understand, but are also pretty easy to verify. And considering that
the *current situation* is producing bad data, the risks are probably
justified.
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/67
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2/pull/33
It's still sad to see those poor pull requests sitting there - if you
had any idea how many hours those two bug fixes took. *sigh*
> That doesn't, however, stop anyone from running their own forked instances,
> and indeed that should be valuable in proving that a particular pull request
> will work or otherwise. So, Steve, I would encourage you to put your own
> build of P2 somewhere and people can then play with and test that as a
> prelude to getting them merged into the github.com/systemed repository
> later.
Yeah, it's a good idea. I'm not sure of the logistics, but I'll have a
go. If I provide a merged .swf, is there anywhere you or someone could
host it?
> Personally I think maintaining a standalone desktop editor will be a whole
> bunch more fun. It frees up P2 to be P2, rather than everyone's first
> experience of contributing to OSM; it's more realistically forkable (anyone
> can offer a build for download); the UI doesn't have to be constrained by
> the browser window; performance should be better; it's less likely to
> attract the BAN crowd; and we can dump trac and use something sane.
For my part, I'm 100% a web guy. I barely use any desktop apps at all
these days and would live in a browser if I could. And the motivation
of contribution to P2 has always been about working on "the
OpenStreetMap editor". Not some advanced tool used by a few hardcore
types. But that's purely a personal, aesthetic view.
> [1] Apart from rendering all nodes, rather than just those in the currently
> selected way... that
Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
On 09/02/2013 14:06, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Steve Bennett wrote: *crickets* No active devs left on this list? Did everyone move to iD? My impression (and I'm open to correction) is that Richard is focused on other projects, as well as iD, and that Andy has de-facto become the PL2 maintainer right now, but has other higher priority. *updates P2's development status to "It's complicated"* To me there's absolutely no doubt that, for primetime use as My First OSM Editor, iD is absolutely the way to go. I'd anticipate that it will be ready to take its place as the default OSM editor in the next couple of months and I'm greatly looking forward to the time when it does. (Disclaimer: although I had a role in pointing it in, I hope, the right direction at first, I'm not really involved in the development of iD at present. I keep an eye and chime in on github tickets now and then, but I've not had the time to get my JavaScript-fu up to the level required to keep up with the Mapbox ninjas. And frankly, that's not at all a problem; they're a million times better coders than I'll ever be, they're making pretty much all the right design decisions[1], they've got the resources both to code it and to inspire a development community, and they're good guys. I couldn't really ask for it to turn out any better.) So, the question is: what purpose does P2 serve when iD is live and the default? I think there's two principal niches. One is working with third-party data, as per Snapshot Server and vector background layers. P2 does this very well and there's no support for it in iD. P2 looks like it'll be the go-to solution for projects like the DfT cycling data for a while yet. Secondly, there's simply the comfort of editing. I find P2 to be a very efficient and enjoyable editor to work with, which is perhaps not too surprising, but there are plenty of others who think so too. A comparable spot in the editor market to Merkaartor, if you like. But we do need to be aware that Flash Player is no longer a given, and I suspect that in a year's time, market penetration even on the desktop will be lucky to hit 80%. That second reason means that, for me at least, the priority is to get a version of P2 up and running on Adobe AIR. We can, of course, still have an online build too (especially for the third-party data use) and I see no reason why P2 can't continue as a selectable option on the osm.org Edit drop-down. Exasperatingly, AIR on Linux is limited to version 2.6, which I think equates to Flash Player 10.3. That said, I'm personally not planning to spend huge amounts of time on P2 development in the next couple of months, because there's no urgent priority to do so and I have other things to do. I'm also a bit burned out by OSM right now, partly from six years of dealing with the BAN POTLATCH types and partly from "the whole OSMF shitstorm" (as someone wise called it). So I hope we'll have Potlatch-on-AIR by SOTM, but not by tomorrow, unless that is someone else does it. For the small remaining time that P2 is the default editor on osm.org, I'm happy to - indeed, would seek to - remain the maintainer of that instance. Any pull requests that can be instantly and confidently merged, I will (and do) merge promptly. Anything that requires a day's work for me to understand isn't going to happen; I can't afford to give a day away like that. That doesn't, however, stop anyone from running their own forked instances, and indeed that should be valuable in proving that a particular pull request will work or otherwise. So, Steve, I would encourage you to put your own build of P2 somewhere and people can then play with and test that as a prelude to getting them merged into the github.com/systemed repository later. Personally I think maintaining a standalone desktop editor will be a whole bunch more fun. It frees up P2 to be P2, rather than everyone's first experience of contributing to OSM; it's more realistically forkable (anyone can offer a build for download); the UI doesn't have to be constrained by the browser window; performance should be better; it's less likely to attract the BAN crowd; and we can dump trac and use something sane. cheers Richard [1] Apart from rendering all nodes, rather than just those in the currently selected way... that's a bit too GIS-like for me. But nothing's perfect, and to have that as my only gripe with it demonstrates exactly how good it is. ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
> From: Serge Wroclawski [mailto:emac...@gmail.com] > Subject: Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development? > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Steve Bennett > wrote: > > *crickets* > > > > No active devs left on this list? Did everyone move to iD? > > My impression (and I'm open to correction) is that Richard is focused on > other projects, as well as iD, and that Andy has de-facto become the PL2 > maintainer right now, but has other higher priority. > > If that's the case (and it very well may not be) then it might make > sense for you to ask to maintain PL2 for now, and see if that gets a > different response. I'd be willing to take on imagery.xml and vectors.xml. I don't know ActionScript, but I do know imagery layers, vector layers, and XML. ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Steve Bennett wrote: > *crickets* > > No active devs left on this list? Did everyone move to iD? My impression (and I'm open to correction) is that Richard is focused on other projects, as well as iD, and that Andy has de-facto become the PL2 maintainer right now, but has other higher priority. If that's the case (and it very well may not be) then it might make sense for you to ask to maintain PL2 for now, and see if that gets a different response. - Serge ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
*crickets* No active devs left on this list? Did everyone move to iD? Steve On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Steve Bennett wrote: > Hi all, > Anyone know what the current status of development is? I have a > number of pull requests on Github that have been sitting there for > nearly a year. Richard Fairhurst hasn't responded to the last couple > of emails I've sent him. > > I keep seeing bugs I'd like to fix, but if pull requests get ignored, > there doesn't seem much point. > > Anyone know what's going on? > > Thanks, > Steve ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
[Potlatch-dev] Status of potlatch2 development?
Hi all, Anyone know what the current status of development is? I have a number of pull requests on Github that have been sitting there for nearly a year. Richard Fairhurst hasn't responded to the last couple of emails I've sent him. I keep seeing bugs I'd like to fix, but if pull requests get ignored, there doesn't seem much point. Anyone know what's going on? Thanks, Steve ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
