Re: [PEDA] Autorouter questions - DXP 2004?

2004-08-16 Thread edsi
Chris,

Go to http://www.connecteda.com/   I wrote an article for ELECTRA that may help you 
route your design.  This is not an advertisement for Electra,  I am just sharing my 
knowledge.

Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick MD


-- Original Message --
From: Chris Fisher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:  Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:57:40 -0700 (PDT)



I have a large? project I am trying to route with DXP 2004.  This is my 
first project using DXP, although I have spent time with test designs and 
tutorials.

The big SMT parts of my design are four 34x34 BGAs @ 1mm spacing and 24 
160-pin 0.8mm spacing connectors.  I am planning to escape two nets 
between vias under the BGA.

The first thing I found is that the auto fanout of the connectors was
rather poor.  Also the autorouter did very poorly with escaping the
via-grid under the BGA.  I then tried prerouting the fanouts and escapes
in the footprints.  With careful layer assignment and fanout, each net
going between BGAs and connectors can be routed on one layer (between
fanout vias).

At this point when I run the autorouter, it does a fairly poor jobs (lots 
of vias and bad decisions that lead to contention  failures).

Most FPGA boards I have seen use a layer topology that is radial, where
the FPGA is the center (at least in the area around the FPGA).  The
closest match in DXP is the Any setting.  This setting appears to assign
one of the fixed directions for the layer, instead of letting each net go
any direction on that layer.

What I am hoping is that I can get the autoroute to connect (without 
changing layers) all the nets between my BGAs and connectors.  Can this be 
done?

This board also has a small number of 100 ohm differential pairs.  At this
time the autorouter does not support differential pair routing, so I was
planning on hand-routing these signals.  Is this what everyone else does?

Questions:

Has anyone else tried using the autorouter this way (partial prerouting
of nets)?
The autorouter seems to ignore the copper on partially pre-routed nets?
Is there a workaround to get it to start from a section of copper instead 
of a pad?

Is there a way to individually restrict the signal layers used for each
net?
Is there a way to restrict the autorouter to only use only one layer?


Is a radial layer direction possible to support with the autorouter?




Does anyone have any further ideas?

Thanks,
Chris Fisher












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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter questions - DXP 2004?

2004-08-14 Thread Mira
Chris,

In general:
- route manually all important nets
- fanout manually all power pins
- run the autoroute from there.

Many people complain about the poor results. You can
never get as good layour as you'd do it manually but
it also depends on how you'll set the autorouter.
You'll have to repeat it several times.

Mira

--- Chris Fisher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 I have a large? project I am trying to route with
 DXP 2004.  This is my 
 first project using DXP, although I have spent time
 with test designs and 
 tutorials.
 
 The big SMT parts of my design are four 34x34 BGAs @
 1mm spacing and 24 
 160-pin 0.8mm spacing connectors.  I am planning to
 escape two nets 
 between vias under the BGA.
 
 The first thing I found is that the auto fanout of
 the connectors was
 rather poor.  Also the autorouter did very poorly
 with escaping the
 via-grid under the BGA.  I then tried prerouting the
 fanouts and escapes
 in the footprints.  With careful layer assignment
 and fanout, each net
 going between BGAs and connectors can be routed on
 one layer (between
 fanout vias).
 
 At this point when I run the autorouter, it does a
 fairly poor jobs (lots 
 of vias and bad decisions that lead to contention 
 failures).
 
 Most FPGA boards I have seen use a layer topology
 that is radial, where
 the FPGA is the center (at least in the area around
 the FPGA).  The
 closest match in DXP is the Any setting.  This
 setting appears to assign
 one of the fixed directions for the layer, instead
 of letting each net go
 any direction on that layer.
 
 What I am hoping is that I can get the autoroute to
 connect (without 
 changing layers) all the nets between my BGAs and
 connectors.  Can this be 
 done?
 
 This board also has a small number of 100 ohm
 differential pairs.  At this
 time the autorouter does not support differential
 pair routing, so I was
 planning on hand-routing these signals.  Is this
 what everyone else does?
 
 Questions:
 
 Has anyone else tried using the autorouter this way
 (partial prerouting
 of nets)?
 The autorouter seems to ignore the copper on
 partially pre-routed nets?
 Is there a workaround to get it to start from a
 section of copper instead 
 of a pad?
 
 Is there a way to individually restrict the signal
 layers used for each
 net?
 Is there a way to restrict the autorouter to only
 use only one layer?
 
 
 Is a radial layer direction possible to support with
 the autorouter?
 
 
 
 
 Does anyone have any further ideas?
 
 Thanks,
 Chris Fisher
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month now...)

2004-03-10 Thread Brian Guralnick
Autoroute example board #3, 5 min, 20 seconds.  (CPU set to 3 GHz, mp3
playing in the background.)

_
Brian Guralnick


- Original Message - 
From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with Protel for at
least 1 month now...)


 Just tried out the autorouter, the example autorouter 'board 1' routed in
29
 seconds.

 _
 Brian Guralnick


 - Original Message - 
 From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month now...


   I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.  Some time ago I
  went
   through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
 different
   brands of memory, different power supplies, and everything else to try
 to
   stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.  I finally
 ended
   up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though everything was
 spec'd
   at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
 
  That was the problem with my Asus dual 1GHz PIII.  To fix it, I had to
set
  in the bios, add 1.5ns on the SDRAM latch.
 
  DDR ram provides an output latch clock which the motherboard chipset
times
  itself to getting rid of these old type problems.
 
  _
  Brian Guralnick
 
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ray Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month
now...
 
 
   I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.  Some time ago I
  went
   through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
 different
   brands of memory, different power supplies, and everything else to try
 to
   stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.  I finally
 ended
   up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though everything was
 spec'd
   at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
  
   Has anyone had any problems with Protel with Intel motherboards?  I've
   heard their not barnburners but are extremely stable.
  
   At 03:19 PM 3/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
I do believe the stability of my new system is that all the
  peripherals,
   24 bit/96KHz sound, USB, 1394, Ethernet, SATA raid controller, ATA
raid
   controller are all on the motherboard  the video card was also made
by
  Asus
   ensuring a trouble free 8X AGP functionality.  It even more stable
than
  my
   old Dual PIII 1 GHz.  Also, the 2 X 120 Gbyte Western Digital HDs
read
 
   write at over 100 Megabytes / second on a continuous basis.
   
I'm sure if I added 1 card to the PCI bus, the boot time would
  probably
   double.
   
Additional, I have successfully over clocked this motherboard to
 4.1
   GHz, though, I don't think it's worth the potential headaches.
   
   _
   Brian Guralnick
   
   
   - Original Message -
   From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:37 AM
   Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month
 now...
   
   
 I'm only using a 300 watt power supply and it takes my XP box 25
  seconds
   to
 boot.
 (that's a joke!)

 Seriously though, don't install a bunch of crap on that PC or else
 the
   boot
 time will grow horribly. (And it may not shut down properly...sort
 of
  like
 this WinXP box.)

 Tony


  -Original Message-
  From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:45 PM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1
  month now...
 
  2 other things,
 
  It completely boots right to the XP password prompt in under
  5 seconds. (I didn't think that was possible...) I'm using a
  450 watt power supply.
 
  _
  Brian Guralnick
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 10:31 PM
  Subject: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month
  now...
 
 
   New PC (tested now for 1 month):
  
   Mobo: ASUS P4P800 Deluxe,
On board stuff:
 3.6 GHz Intel CPU.
 2GB DDR sdram in dual channel mode.
 AD1985 - on board sound card, v3630 drivers.
 Intel 82801ER Serial ATA raid controller with 2 x 120GB
  SATA WD hds.
 3Com gigabit LOM (3C940)
 Firewire port
 8 USB 2.0 ports
 Parallel Port
 Serial Port
  
   Video AGP:  ASUS V9520/TD - GeForce FX5200 (not the best
  card for extreme
   

Re: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month now...)

2004-03-10 Thread John A. Ross [RSDTV]
 -Original Message-
 From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:04 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with 
 Protel for at least 1 month now...)
 
 Just tried out the autorouter, the example autorouter 'board 
 1' routed in 29 seconds.

Brian

Was that in 99SE, using standard Board1.ddb file with defaults for router?

I did something similar a month or two ago, I just found the following from
my notes. 
I did this initially to see if the productivity benefit was there for the
investment in a new PC. 
But it also opened my eyes to Situs (not that I use it anyway).

Enviroment 1

Dell 8200, single PIV 2.0GHz, XP ProSp1, 756mB RIMM, Matrox G550
Outlook 2003/IE6 and DXP open  Running
Board1.ddb, Board 1, accept all defaults.

99SE

Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:0:31

DXP SP2
---
All I have here for now is SP2
Board 1 (99SE version), imported to DXP, accept all defaults.
Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:04:26

Board 1 (DXP version),
Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:06:03

Enviroment 2

Proliant ML350G3, Dual Xeon 2.8Ghz, 4gB ECC DDR, SCSI Raid 5 plus one drive
for cache, Matrox G550, Serverworks MoBo
W2K3 server, MS Exchange, ISA and Sharepoint all running, 
usually with 11-15 clients attached (plus PC from production floor)
Management logs show none of the CPUS were stressed and memory usage only
peaked at 68% 
Board1.ddb, Board 1, accept all defaults.

99SE

Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:0:25

DXP

All I have here for now is SP2
Board 1 (99SE version), imported to DXP, accept all defaults.
Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:3:59

Board 1 (DXP version),
Routing completion 100%, 
Connections routed 286, 
Connections remaining 0, 
Elapsed Routing Time : 0:06:35

I guess a similar exercise with other routers.

John









 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 
 month now...
 
 
   I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.  
 Some time ago I
  went
   through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
 different
   brands of memory, different power supplies, and 
 everything else to try
 to
   stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.  
 I finally
 ended
   up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though 
 everything was
 spec'd
   at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
 
  That was the problem with my Asus dual 1GHz PIII.  To fix 
 it, I had to set
  in the bios, add 1.5ns on the SDRAM latch.
 
  DDR ram provides an output latch clock which the 
 motherboard chipset times
  itself to getting rid of these old type problems.
 
  _
  Brian Guralnick
 
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ray Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 
 1 month now...
 
 
   I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.  
 Some time ago I
  went
   through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
 different
   brands of memory, different power supplies, and 
 everything else to try
 to
   stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.  
 I finally
 ended
   up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though 
 everything was
 spec'd
   at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
  
   Has anyone had any problems with Protel with Intel 
 motherboards?  I've
   heard their not barnburners but are extremely stable.
  
   At 03:19 PM 3/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
I do believe the stability of my new system is that all the
  peripherals,
   24 bit/96KHz sound, USB, 1394, Ethernet, SATA raid 
 controller, ATA raid
   controller are all on the motherboard  the video card 
 was also made by
  Asus
   ensuring a trouble free 8X AGP functionality.  It even 
 more stable than
  my
   old Dual PIII 1 GHz.  Also, the 2 X 120 Gbyte Western 
 Digital HDs read
 
   write at over 100 Megabytes / second on a continuous basis.
   
I'm sure if I added 1 card to the PCI bus, the boot 
 time would
  probably
   double.
   
Additional, I have successfully over clocked this 
 motherboard to
 4.1
   GHz, though, I don't think it's worth the potential headaches.
   
   _
   Brian Guralnick
   
   
   - Original Message -
   From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   

Re: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with Protel for at least 1 month now...)

2004-03-10 Thread Brian Guralnick
My tests were with Protel99SE, SP6, WinXP-Pro.
-
Autoroute Board#1, using defaults, 25 seconds.
Autoroute Board#3, using defaults, 5 min, 20 seconds.
-

It looks like Protel's autorouter is more memory  FSB bus speed intensive
than CPU core speed intensive.  My FSB/memory speed is 800 MHz.  Even if I
put in a 1.8 GHz CPU, the autoroute times would probably be the about the
same.  I guess only those who use the above 1.2GHz FSB probably will see
some realistic improvement.

_
Brian Guralnick


- Original Message - 
From: John A. Ross [RSDTV] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with Protel for at
least 1 month now...)


  -Original Message-
  From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:04 PM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter speed, (was New PC tested with
  Protel for at least 1 month now...)
 
  Just tried out the autorouter, the example autorouter 'board
  1' routed in 29 seconds.

 Brian

 Was that in 99SE, using standard Board1.ddb file with defaults for router?

 I did something similar a month or two ago, I just found the following
from
 my notes.
 I did this initially to see if the productivity benefit was there for the
 investment in a new PC.
 But it also opened my eyes to Situs (not that I use it anyway).

 Enviroment 1
 
 Dell 8200, single PIV 2.0GHz, XP ProSp1, 756mB RIMM, Matrox G550
 Outlook 2003/IE6 and DXP open  Running
 Board1.ddb, Board 1, accept all defaults.

 99SE
 
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:0:31

 DXP SP2
 ---
 All I have here for now is SP2
 Board 1 (99SE version), imported to DXP, accept all defaults.
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:04:26

 Board 1 (DXP version),
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:06:03

 Enviroment 2
 
 Proliant ML350G3, Dual Xeon 2.8Ghz, 4gB ECC DDR, SCSI Raid 5 plus one
drive
 for cache, Matrox G550, Serverworks MoBo
 W2K3 server, MS Exchange, ISA and Sharepoint all running,
 usually with 11-15 clients attached (plus PC from production floor)
 Management logs show none of the CPUS were stressed and memory usage only
 peaked at 68%
 Board1.ddb, Board 1, accept all defaults.

 99SE
 
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:0:25

 DXP
 
 All I have here for now is SP2
 Board 1 (99SE version), imported to DXP, accept all defaults.
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:3:59

 Board 1 (DXP version),
 Routing completion 100%,
 Connections routed 286,
 Connections remaining 0,
 Elapsed Routing Time : 0:06:35

 I guess a similar exercise with other routers.

 John









 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least 1
  month now...
 
 
I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.
  Some time ago I
   went
through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
  different
brands of memory, different power supplies, and
  everything else to try
  to
stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.
  I finally
  ended
up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though
  everything was
  spec'd
at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
  
   That was the problem with my Asus dual 1GHz PIII.  To fix
  it, I had to set
   in the bios, add 1.5ns on the SDRAM latch.
  
   DDR ram provides an output latch clock which the
  motherboard chipset times
   itself to getting rid of these old type problems.
  
   _
   Brian Guralnick
  
  
   - Original Message - 
   From: Ray Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:36 PM
   Subject: Re: [PEDA] New PC tested with Protel for at least
  1 month now...
  
  
I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with ASUS.
  Some time ago I
   went
through several ASUS 400MHz CUSL2 motherboards, different CPUs,
  different
brands of memory, different power supplies, and
  everything else to try
  to
stop random crashes.  It wasn't just with Protel either.
  I finally
  ended
up slowing the memory bus down to 100MHz even though
  everything was
  spec'd
at 133.I'll never touch ASUS again.  I was using Win2K.
   
Has anyone had any problems with Protel with Intel
  motherboards?  I've
heard

Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support
 if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium
 should just buy them and integrate it
 after all that was neuroute's biz strategy

Be careful what you wish for - you might get it.

Seriously, when a firm with a great product gets bought by another firm, it
usually has detrimental results on the product that made the former great.
I think I can count on one hand the number of real world examples of where a
buyout actually improved the product or service.  The business landscape is
littered with the remains of once good products and companies that were
ruined by a buyout.

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter


 no joke
 i know it is a tall order (big wish)
 but why route a big board all 4/4 (or 5/5) when only a little area needs
 it?

 i guess you would just define a rectangle and then outside that it would
 shift gears

 BTW my idle wish aside,
 mike seems quite excited by this router and he knows this business well

 if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium
 should just buy them and integrate it
 after all that was neuroute's biz strategy

 Dennis Saputelli


 Igor Gmitrovic wrote:
 
  And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.
 
  Are you sure you are joking here? :)
 
  Igor
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
  $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
  spectra does
 
  now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
  switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)
 
  ds
 
  edsi wrote:
  
   Joe and Dennis,
   This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is
the routing solution for all of Altium's products.
   Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from
the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is
converted to 28 mils.  Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor
problem compared to the quality of routing.  The full version will set you
back another 3K.  I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from
Protel since I have no use for their other add ons.
  
   Mike Reagan
   EDSI
   Frederick MD
  
   -- Original Message --
   From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
  
   what does it cost ?
   how does it like BGAs?
   
   does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel
bug?
   
   maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?
   
   ds
   
   
   edsi wrote:
   
Hello All,
   
 
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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Dennis Saputelli
what you say is true (good products ruined)
but it is too late

in other words this is the M.O. of biz today
so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference

when you consider:
1] more than a year has passed since Situs was released
2] it is 'still under developement' by their own recent words
3] they have never produced a usuable router *of their own making*

i stand by my idle wish

BTW - re #3
i find the 99SE router (which is a direct descendant of 
Neruoroute which they had purchased)
to be usuable for many needs ranging from simple to moderate
it is certainly not very SMD aware and is certainly not up to
today's technology, but how could it be? it's old

remember TRAXSTAR ?  heh heh
that was an in house router by protel a million years ago
i still have the dongle
it never did anything useful and wasn't real cheap by those day's 
standards

during the 2.8 windows era their router wasn't worth anything either
they didn't even claim it was
the router of choice at that time was from Masstek
can't recall the name right now
i still have the dongles

so i hope this shows the reasoning behind my thinking on this 
matter

Dennis Saputelli


Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:
 
  if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium
  should just buy them and integrate it
  after all that was neuroute's biz strategy
 
 Be careful what you wish for - you might get it.
 
 Seriously, when a firm with a great product gets bought by another firm, it
 usually has detrimental results on the product that made the former great.
 I think I can count on one hand the number of real world examples of where a
 buyout actually improved the product or service.  The business landscape is
 littered with the remains of once good products and companies that were
 ruined by a buyout.
 
 Best regards,
 Ivan Baggett
 Bagotronix Inc.
 website:  www.bagotronix.com
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
  no joke
  i know it is a tall order (big wish)
  but why route a big board all 4/4 (or 5/5) when only a little area needs
  it?
 
  i guess you would just define a rectangle and then outside that it would
  shift gears
 
  BTW my idle wish aside,
  mike seems quite excited by this router and he knows this business well
 
  if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium
  should just buy them and integrate it
  after all that was neuroute's biz strategy
 
  Dennis Saputelli
 
 
  Igor Gmitrovic wrote:
  
   And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.
  
   Are you sure you are joking here? :)
  
   Igor
  
   -Original Message-
   From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM
   To: Protel EDA Forum
   Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
  
   $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
   spectra does
  
   now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
   switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)
  
   ds
  
   edsi wrote:
   
Joe and Dennis,
This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is
 the routing solution for all of Altium's products.
Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from
 the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is
 converted to 28 mils.  Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor
 problem compared to the quality of routing.  The full version will set you
 back another 3K.  I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from
 Protel since I have no use for their other add ons.
   
Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick MD
   
-- Original Message --
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
   
what does it cost ?
how does it like BGAs?

does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel
 bug?

maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?

ds


edsi wrote:

 Hello All,

  
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   2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
   San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com
  
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  2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
  San Francisco, CA 94110

Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Jon Elson


Dennis Saputelli wrote:

what you say is true (good products ruined)
but it is too late
in other words this is the M.O. of biz today
so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference
 

Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
want to be bought, can't be bought.  In the old days, these companies
would end up having suspicious fires.  But, in the current climate
of high-quality forensic science, it is REALLY hard to get away with
this sort of crime.  Konekt.com has the feel of a privately-held
outfit, but I don't know for sure.
Jon



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Edi Im Hof
At 14:18 21.01.2004 -0600, you wrote:


Dennis Saputelli wrote:

what you say is true (good products ruined)
but it is too late
in other words this is the M.O. of biz today
so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference
Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
want to be bought, can't be bought.  In the old days, these companies
would end up having suspicious fires.  But, in the current climate
of high-quality forensic science, it is REALLY hard to get away with
this sort of crime.  Konekt.com has the feel of a privately-held
outfit, but I don't know for sure.
They don't even say where they located.
The phone number is ++32 ... Thats Belgium. Thats the only hint.
The hompage dosn't tells much about the company.
May they don't want to be bought out ;-) You don't know where to send the 
money.

Edi


Jon






+  IH electronic+  Phone:   ++41 52 320 90 00  +
+  Edi Im Hof   +  Fax: ++41 52 320 90 04  +
+  Doernlerstrasse 1, Sulz  +  URL: http://www.ihe.ch  +
+  CH-8544 Rickenbach-Attikon   +  E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   +
+  Switzerland  +  +



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Terry Creer
Thomas,
I presume 4/4 is 4mil tracks with 4mil clearances etc, etc...

TC


 -Original Message-
 From: Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:27 PM
 To: 'Protel EDA Forum'
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
 
 Please excuse my ignorance, what are 4/4, 5/5 etc...?
 
 
 


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support
 Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
 bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
 want to be bought, can't be bought.

I wasn't commenting about whether or not they wanted to be bought.  It's
entirely conceivable that the owners of a legit company with a good product
want to cash out.  Maybe they are tired of putting in 70+ hours a week, and
a good offer comes along.  The culprits are the buyers, who in many cases,
don't have the business sense that God gave to a rock.  Yeah, there's a
business model - create a publicly held company, managed by the business
school's best graduates, and well financed by IPO.  Problem is, buzzwords
and marketing do not a good product/service make.  These people buy the
company, and then change everything that made that company a success.  When
you are traveling in the direction of success, you don't do a 180!  But
that's exactly what they do.  It's like the Reverse Midas Touch, where every
piece of gold they touch turns into dung.  I say dung, because even base
metals would have some value ;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter




 Dennis Saputelli wrote:

 what you say is true (good products ruined)
 but it is too late
 
 in other words this is the M.O. of biz today
 so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference
 
 
 Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
 bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
 want to be bought, can't be bought.  In the old days, these companies
 would end up having suspicious fires.  But, in the current climate
 of high-quality forensic science, it is REALLY hard to get away with
 this sort of crime.  Konekt.com has the feel of a privately-held
 outfit, but I don't know for sure.

 Jon






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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread ravenrux
I call that the Dumbass touch. :)

Michael Badillo
QT, Inc.

From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2004/01/21 Wed PM 04:25:52 EST
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

 Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
 bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
 want to be bought, can't be bought.

I wasn't commenting about whether or not they wanted to be bought.  It's
entirely conceivable that the owners of a legit company with a good product
want to cash out.  Maybe they are tired of putting in 70+ hours a week, and
a good offer comes along.  The culprits are the buyers, who in many cases,
don't have the business sense that God gave to a rock.  Yeah, there's a
business model - create a publicly held company, managed by the business
school's best graduates, and well financed by IPO.  Problem is, buzzwords
and marketing do not a good product/service make.  These people buy the
company, and then change everything that made that company a success.  When
you are traveling in the direction of success, you don't do a 180!  But
that's exactly what they do.  It's like the Reverse Midas Touch, where every
piece of gold they touch turns into dung.  I say dung, because even base
metals would have some value ;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter




 Dennis Saputelli wrote:

 what you say is true (good products ruined)
 but it is too late
 
 in other words this is the M.O. of biz today
 so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference
 
 
 Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
 bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
 want to be bought, can't be bought.  In the old days, these companies
 would end up having suspicious fires.  But, in the current climate
 of high-quality forensic science, it is REALLY hard to get away with
 this sort of crime.  Konekt.com has the feel of a privately-held
 outfit, but I don't know for sure.

 Jon









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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Jon Elson


Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:

Well, remember that only publicly-traded corporations can be
bought out by force.  A privately-held corporation that doesn't
want to be bought, can't be bought.
   

I wasn't commenting about whether or not they wanted to be bought.  It's
entirely conceivable that the owners of a legit company with a good product
want to cash out.  Maybe they are tired of putting in 70+ hours a week, and
a good offer comes along.
Oh, of course, this happens.  I know a couple of people who got lucky, 
and were
able to sell their business for fabulous sums of money.

 The culprits are the buyers, who in many cases,
don't have the business sense that God gave to a rock.
UMM, anyone we know?  Like Altium?

 Yeah, there's a
business model - create a publicly held company, managed by the business
school's best graduates, and well financed by IPO.  Problem is, buzzwords
and marketing do not a good product/service make.  These people buy the
company, and then change everything that made that company a success.  When
you are traveling in the direction of success, you don't do a 180!
Yup, the history of high-tech businesses are littered with that debris. 
Shugart
Associates, for instance.  After buying it, and throwing out the founder,
they even prevented Alan Shugart from using his own name in a new venture.
So, he came up with Seagate.  Where's Shugart (the company) now?  Kaput.
Where's Seagate?  One of the biggest disk drive makers in the world.

 But
that's exactly what they do.  It's like the Reverse Midas Touch, where every
piece of gold they touch turns into dung.  I say dung, because even base
metals would have some value ;-)
 

Yup, that's it, the reverse Midas touch, all right.  There's hundreds of 
these stories.

Jon



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-21 Thread Ian Wilson
On 10:01 AM 22/01/2004, Jon Elson said:
 The culprits are the buyers, who in many cases,
don't have the business sense that God gave to a rock.
UMM, anyone we know?  Like Altium?
I know the sentiment but ...

Does anyone know which CAE companies are growing fastest? I assume Altium 
would be up there, but I have no figures.

I wouldn't mind if my company was growing as fast as Altium, but then I 
*know* I have little business sense.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Joe Sapienza
Mike,

This is a separate and not the integrated replacement for Situs, right?

Joe


- Original Message - 
From: edsi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:49 PM
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter


 Hello All,

 I wish to share my excitement on new autorouter for Protel.  The router is
from konekt.com, named ELECTRA.  Electra is available in several
configurations, but I wish to share that I spent a considerable amount of
time baselining this software. The router accepts DSN files, and is very
similar in operation to Spectra less a few high speed commands.
 As far as routing speed,  it is slightly slower than Spectra, but the
accuracy of the traces are cleaner. On three separate tests of the same
design, Electra was consistent with 500- 600 less vias.  It was also
consistent on all of my track lengths. The test board had 1984 components,
so this was not a trivial routing test.
 The router also observed my protected traces.  I can not speak highly
enough of this product, and no I do not have a vested interest in it
 Download their demo.  I highly recommend it


 Mike Reagan
 EDSI
 Frederick MD




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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Dennis Saputelli
what does it cost ?
how does it like BGAs?

does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?

maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?

ds


edsi wrote:
 
 Hello All,
 
 I wish to share my excitement on new autorouter for Protel.  The router is from 
 konekt.com, named ELECTRA.  Electra is available in several configurations, but I 
 wish to share that I spent a considerable amount of time baselining this software. 
 The router accepts DSN files, and is very similar in operation to Spectra less a few 
 high speed commands.
 As far as routing speed,  it is slightly slower than Spectra, but the accuracy of 
 the traces are cleaner. On three separate tests of the same design, Electra was 
 consistent with 500- 600 less vias.  It was also consistent on all of my track 
 lengths. The test board had 1984 components, so this was not a trivial routing test.
 The router also observed my protected traces.  I can not speak highly enough of this 
 product, and no I do not have a vested interest in it
 Download their demo.  I highly recommend it
 
 Mike Reagan
 EDSI
 Frederick MD
 

-- 
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread edsi
Joe and Dennis,
This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing 
solution for all of Altium's products.  
Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it 
exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils.  
Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality of 
routing.  The full version will set you back another 3K.  I probably can save that if 
I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add ons.

Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick MD


-- Original Message --
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800

what does it cost ?
how does it like BGAs?

does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?

maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?

ds


edsi wrote:
 
 Hello All,
 
 I wish to share my excitement on new autorouter for Protel.  The router is from 
 konekt.com, named ELECTRA.  Electra is available in several configurations, but I 
 wish to share that I spent a considerable amount of time baselining this software. 
 The router accepts DSN files, and is very similar in operation to Spectra less a 
 few high speed commands.
 As far as routing speed,  it is slightly slower than Spectra, but the accuracy of 
 the traces are cleaner. On three separate tests of the same design, Electra was 
 consistent with 500- 600 less vias.  It was also consistent on all of my track 
 lengths. The test board had 1984 components, so this was not a trivial routing test.
 The router also observed my protected traces.  I can not speak highly enough of 
 this product, and no I do not have a vested interest in it
 Download their demo.  I highly recommend it
 
 Mike Reagan
 EDSI
 Frederick MD
 

-- 
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com




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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Darren

Hi Joe,

Yes, not related to Altium, see this link
for details. Says pricing starting from
$600.00. looks like that is for double
sided boards.

http://www.konekt.com/


Regards,
Darren



 -Original Message-
 From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Mike,
 
 This is a separate and not the integrated replacement for 
 Situs, right?
 
 Joe



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Ian Wilson
On 05:49 AM 21/01/2004, edsi said:
Hello All,

I wish to share my excitement on new autorouter for Protel.  The router is 
from konekt.com, named ELECTRA.  Electra is available in several 
configurations, but I wish to share that I spent a considerable amount of 
time baselining this software. The router accepts DSN files, and is very 
similar in operation to Spectra less a few high speed commands.
As far as routing speed,  it is slightly slower than Spectra, but the 
accuracy of the traces are cleaner. On three separate tests of the same 
design, Electra was consistent with 500- 600 less vias.  It was also 
consistent on all of my track lengths. The test board had 1984 components, 
so this was not a trivial routing test.
The router also observed my protected traces.  I can not speak highly 
enough of this product, and no I do not have a vested interest in it
Download their demo.  I highly recommend it


I tried it before Chrissy - it crashed on my test board.  I have not had 
time to investigate further - been on hols.  I thought it did look interesting.

Ian Wilson



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Steve Wiseman
20/01/2004 19:28:34, Dennis Saputelli 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

what does it cost ?

Dunno yet.

how does it like BGAs?

It seems to have just routed my double-sided, densely-packed 
BGA board from hell, that even Specctra hates. It took a couple of 
hours, and barfed on some of the rules in my .do file, so it's quite 
possible it could be made to give better results faster. At the end 
of the .do, though, it asked if I wanted to save the .ses file - I said 
no, and it just quit, and if it saved the .rte file, I can't find it. Sigh - 
I'll pay more attention next time, but it does look promising. 
Certainly orders of magnitude more useful than the Protel built-in 
routers, which just sulks whem faced with aany serious board...

does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?

will report back when I find out. It would be handy if it didn't :)

maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA 
company ?

And give us all a copy as the 'vastly improved, completely re-
written' autorouter that was promised to be shipped with DXP, 
and was what made the sale for me, but turned out to be a mildly 
warmed over version of the all-but-useless router from P99. Yes, 
I'm still feeling ripped off. 

Steve Wiseman




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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread edsi
Ian,
The dsn file you create must be 100 percent Spectra compatible.  There are some quirks 
to every software packageSpectra has a few and if not followed both Spectra and 
Electra will not initialize.  If you are having some difficulty initilizing a file, 
send it to me and I will take a look at if. My email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] do not use 
the return on this emaildont ask how I am sending this lol

Dennis,
All vias are re-imported as 28 mil hole diameter. Unless this code is 100 percent 
copied from Spectra, I would now think this problem lies with a Protel ini file 
somewhere. I am investigating this because this problem has occured with 3 different 
autorouters with Protel.

My first test board had 3 BGAs, this router had no problems at all.  
We even wrote some fan out do files and the fan out were superior to Spectra.  This 
router is for real, it will change the game for sure

Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick MD






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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Dennis Saputelli
$3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
spectra does

now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)

ds


edsi wrote:
 
 Joe and Dennis,
 This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing 
 solution for all of Altium's products.
 Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it 
 exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils.  
 Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality 
 of routing.  The full version will set you back another 3K.  I probably can save 
 that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add 
 ons.
 
 Mike Reagan
 EDSI
 Frederick MD
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
 
 what does it cost ?
 how does it like BGAs?
 
 does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?
 
 maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?
 
 ds
 
 
 edsi wrote:
 
  Hello All,
 

-- 
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Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Igor Gmitrovic
And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.

Are you sure you are joking here? :)

Igor

-Original Message-
From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter


$3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
spectra does

now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)

ds


edsi wrote:
 
 Joe and Dennis,
 This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing 
 solution for all of Altium's products.
 Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it 
 exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils.  
 Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality 
 of routing.  The full version will set you back another 3K.  I probably can save 
 that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add 
 ons.
 
 Mike Reagan
 EDSI
 Frederick MD
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
 
 what does it cost ?
 how does it like BGAs?
 
 does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?
 
 maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?
 
 ds
 
 
 edsi wrote:
 
  Hello All,
 

-- 
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Thomas
Please excuse my ignorance, what are 4/4, 5/5 etc...?


 -Original Message-
 From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:25
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
 
 And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.
 
 Are you sure you are joking here? :)
 
 Igor
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
 
 $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
 spectra does
 
 now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
 switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)
 
 ds
 
 
 edsi wrote:
  
  Joe and Dennis,
  This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree 
 ELECTRA is the routing solution for all of Altium's products.
  Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing 
 back from the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as 
 Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils.  Double hits are 
 common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the 
 quality of routing.  The full version will set you back 
 another 3K.  I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala 
 carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add ons.
  
  Mike Reagan
  EDSI
  Frederick MD
  
  -- Original Message --
  From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
  
  what does it cost ?
  how does it like BGAs?
  
  does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a 
 protel bug?
  
  maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?
  
  ds
  
  
  edsi wrote:
  
   Hello All,
  
 
 -- 
 __
 _
 Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com
 
 
 _ 
 This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed 
 Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information 
 visit http://www.mci.com
 
 


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Dennis Saputelli
no joke
i know it is a tall order (big wish)
but why route a big board all 4/4 (or 5/5) when only a little area needs
it?

i guess you would just define a rectangle and then outside that it would
shift gears

BTW my idle wish aside,
mike seems quite excited by this router and he knows this business well

if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium
should just buy them and integrate it
after all that was neuroute's biz strategy

Dennis Saputelli


Igor Gmitrovic wrote:
 
 And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.
 
 Are you sure you are joking here? :)
 
 Igor
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
 $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what
 spectra does
 
 now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then
 switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region!  -:)
 
 ds
 
 edsi wrote:
 
  Joe and Dennis,
  This company has no affiliation with Altium.  Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing 
  solution for all of Altium's products.
  Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, 
  it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 
  mils.  Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the 
  quality of routing.  The full version will set you back another 3K.  I probably 
  can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their 
  other add ons.
 
  Mike Reagan
  EDSI
  Frederick MD
 
  -- Original Message --
  From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date:  Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800
 
  what does it cost ?
  how does it like BGAs?
  
  does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug?
  
  maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ?
  
  ds
  
  
  edsi wrote:
  
   Hello All,
  
 
 --
 ___
 Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107
 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com
 
 _
 This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed
 Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information
 visit http://www.mci.com
 

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2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2004-01-20 Thread Dennis Saputelli
4 mil line / 4 mil space

below 5/5 price and flakiness go up

Dennis Saputelli


Thomas wrote:
 
 Please excuse my ignorance, what are 4/4, 5/5 etc...?
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:25
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
 
 
  And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition.
 
  Are you sure you are joking here? :)
 
  Igor
 

-- 
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   Tel: 415-647-0480  EXT 107 
2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003
San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2003-10-21 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 04:10 PM 10/16/2003, Chacon Simon, Geoffrey wrote:
get-archive proteledaforum subject router
Well, partly to note that Geoffry can search the archive at
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
and partly to test the PEDA list, I'm sending this message.

(there was another archive operating, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], but it was broken exactly a year 
ago and the existence of the archive mentioned above made it a low priority 
to fix it)

I have not received any PEDA messages since the one to which I am 
responding. That's unusual but such a hiatus is not impossible.



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter questions:

2003-10-02 Thread Emanuel Zimmermann
Gary,

Personally I don't have much experience with the Protel autorouter. But if 
you really intend to use it in your setup: Why don't you let the router 
just use the outer layers for routing and do the rest manually on the 
inner layers? This way you have much more control over your power supply 
routing. Or just do the power routing manually, lock preroutes and let the 
autorouter do the rest.

No idea if one of this will work, however that would be the way I would 
try this.

Regards,
Emanuel
---
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Emanuel Zimmermann   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager RD   Phone: +41 56 483'34'34
Taefernstrasse 20   Fax:  +41 56 493'30'20

CH-5405 Daettwil
---

Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01.10.2003 18:50:59:

 I have a couple of questions about the autorouter and multilayer boards. 
 
 
 I know everyone will say to manually route it, and I will probably end 
 up doing it manually, but is there a way to use the autorouter and 
 specify the preferred layer to route the net on?  I would like to do a 4 

 layer design and I want to use the outer layers as much as I can and the 

 autorouter just seems to pick whatever layer it feels like if I use 4 
 routing layers and no power planes.  The downfall of this is that I was 
 thinking of just placing a polygon fill for the power planes but this 
 routing strategy cuts up the polygons too much and I am not happy with 
 the gnd plane this way.
 
 Or, is there a way to allow the autorouter to place a net class on the 
 inner ground or power plane layer?  This is why I am using 4 routing 
 layers, when really all I would like to do is to route my data and 
 address busses on the inner layers since my power nets are not 
 complicated and there is a lot of unused real estate there.
 
 Thank you for you input,
 Regards,
 Gary Allbee
 Alta Industrial Automation Ltd
 www.aialtd.com
 
 
 
 
 



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter questions:

2003-10-02 Thread Andy Gulliver
Is this on 99SE or DXP?

The following applies to P99SE/SP6, but similar principles will probably
apply for DXP:

If the power routing is simple you could try first manually routing the
power nets on the outer layers and then set up the Routing Layers rule so
the outer two are set to 'unused' (NB: you'll need to manually fan out any
SMT first) and then run the autorouter with preroutes locked.

Alternatively you could define net classes for 'power' and 'the rest' and
setup routing layer rules for each so they use different layer pairs -
bearing in mind that if you've got any SMT and you're wanting some signals
to keep off the outer layers then you'll have to either fanout manually or
change the rule for a fanout pass and reset it for the main routing.

Regards,

Andy Gulliver

 -Original Message-
 From: Gary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 01 October 2003 17:51
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter questions:


 I have a couple of questions about the autorouter and
 multilayer boards.

 I know everyone will say to manually route it, and I will
 probably end
 up doing it manually, but is there a way to use the autorouter and
 specify the preferred layer to route the net on?  I would
 like to do a 4
 layer design and I want to use the outer layers as much as I
 can and the
 autorouter just seems to pick whatever layer it feels like if I use 4
 routing layers and no power planes.  The downfall of this is
 that I was
 thinking of just placing a polygon fill for the power planes but this
 routing strategy cuts up the polygons too much and I am not
 happy with
 the gnd plane this way.

 Or, is there a way to allow the autorouter to place a net
 class on the
 inner ground or power plane layer?  This is why I am using 4 routing
 layers, when really all I would like to do is to route my data and
 address busses on the inner layers since my power nets are not
 complicated and there is a lot of unused real estate there.

 Thank you for you input,
 Regards,
 Gary Allbee
 Alta Industrial Automation Ltd
 www.aialtd.com








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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

2002-09-17 Thread Brad Velander

Jami,
you seem to be applying the term differential impedance as an
equal to controlled impedance, it is not. At the end of paragraph 2 on
page two Lee states. ...meaning that each is a well designed transmission
line with a proper termination.  There is no need for differential impedance
to accomplish this. A transmission line is a controlled impedance line,
but it is not a differential impedance line. So where in this article does
he state that controlled impedance is not required? All through the article
I can find nothing that even hints he is saying controlled impedance is not
required.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification 



 -Original Message-
 From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 7:38 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.
 
 
 Actually guys,
 
 Don't fight over the award yet, because he isn't really 
 saying what you
 think he is saying, and for that matter what doesn't even say 
 what he says
 he's saying.
 
 I just carefully read the first two pages, and he is claiming 
 to debunk the
 supposed need to apply impedance control to simple 
 differential signals,
 which would otherwise not need impedance control, which by 
 the way I will
 agree with.

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - A FLAWED PREMISE

2002-09-17 Thread Fred A Rupinski

I believe contributors to this thread have been citing the following paper
(unnamed until now):

Article for Printed Circuit Design,  By Lee W. Ritchey,  3Com Corporation
'Differential Signaling Doesn't Require Differential Impedance
Or,  How to Design a Differential Signaling Circuit' 

I feel compelled to report that even though the author presents some
noteworthy viewpoints about the practical aspects of differential logic
transmission circuits, some of his assertions are in error, therefore his
ideas must be applied with caution.

In the fifth paragraph, the author presents the premise,
.[differential signaling provides] immunity from common
mode noise coupled into the pair by outside noise sources.
...because any magnetic noise field couples equally into both wires
resulting in a common mode signal.

This statement is fundamentally WRONG. The pair in question forms a loop
that is in effect a single turn pickup coil with the drivers serving as a
virtual center tap. An emf is generated at the single turn coil terminals by
varying magnetic flux fields cut by the plane of the coil. This is a
differential voltage, NOT a common mode voltage. The greater the coil area,
the more flux lines pass through the plane of the coil, consequently, the
larger the emf. The shape of the loop doesn't matter; only the area. Any
standard physics text or electromagnetics reference will verify this.

The following sentence goes on to say, [This] is of [no] real benefit when
the wires are routed over the planes of a PCB.  As a consequence of the
initial wrong premise, this statement is also wrong.

First of all, magnetic fields penetrate copper planes, with the degree of
penetration dependent on the frequency. Therefore, trace loops adjacent to
the planes will pick up these fields, the degree also dependent on the
frequency. Finally, a trace loop voltage (emf) is a function of the area of
that loop. Since a differential pair is effectively a loop, minimizing the
pair separation minimizes the area, hence the voltage pickup as well.

Clearly, in a magnetic noise environment, the differential pair spacing
cannot be ignored. Once again, be careful.

Regards,
Fred A Rupinski

- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

 I knew the article and had read it thoroughly in the past several times. 
...he has done so much trying to
characterize,
 quantize or just plain dispel some of the old wives tales that plague this
 industry.


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - A FLAWED PREMISE

2002-09-17 Thread Brad Velander

Fred,
thanks. However, I never stated, nor intended, that the routing
could ignore the spacing between the signal pairs. Lee's article is a little
cavalier about this issue, seeming to condone routing signal pairs with
larger than optimum spacing between the pair. Obviously some could have
interpreted my comments in the same manner as you did.
I simply intended that it was not of a concern to obtain a
differential impedance between the lines. This distance does not have to
be controlled down to a mil, as someone may try if they figured the traces
had some required impedance effect between each other (differential
impedance) and that spacing had to be rigidly maintained along the length of
the traces.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification 



 -Original Message-
 From: Fred A Rupinski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:22 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - A 
 FLAWED PREMISE
 
snip
 
 Clearly, in a magnetic noise environment, the differential 
 pair spacing
 cannot be ignored. Once again, be careful.
 
 Regards,
 Fred A Rupinski
 

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

2002-09-17 Thread JaMi Smith

Brad,

See below,

JaMi

- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.


 Jami,
 you seem to be applying the term differential impedance as an
 equal to controlled impedance, it is not. At the end of paragraph 2 on
 page two Lee states. ...meaning that each is a well designed transmission
 line with a proper termination.  There is no need for differential
impedance
 to accomplish this. A transmission line is a controlled impedance line,
 but it is not a differential impedance line. So where in this article
does
 he state that controlled impedance is not required? All through the
article
 I can find nothing that even hints he is saying controlled impedance is
not
 required.


Let me try to break this down:

 you seem to be applying the term differential impedance as an
 equal to controlled impedance, it is not.

If required it can be.

  . . .At the end of paragraph 2 on
 page two Lee states. ...meaning that each is a well designed transmission
 line with a proper termination.  There is no need for differential
impedance
 to accomplish this.

See discussion below.

. . . A transmission line is a controlled impedance line,

True

 but it is not a differential impedance line.

This statement is not necessarily applicable to the first part of the
sentence above. Here  you are beginning to mix apples and oranges.

See discussion below.

   . . .  So where in this article does
 he state that controlled impedance is not required? All through the
article
 I can find nothing that even hints he is saying controlled impedance is
not
 required.


The very premise of the title, the first paragraph, and also portions of the
article dealing with historical requirements of differential signaling, and
the stuff beginning about the middle of page two, all seem to be saying that
differential signals do not necessarily require controlled impedance.

If you believe that he really IS saying that controlled impedance IS
required for all differential signals, then I respectfully submit that
you really are misreading the article.

General Reply

I am not applying the term differential impedance as an equal to
controlled impedance, but more properly, one form of, or one way to
achieve, controlled impedance. I am also not saying that differential
signals require controlled impedance.

Referring to your quote above, back up a sentence, and read what he is
saying . . . This can be accomplished by routing the signals side by side
(differential impedance, one form of controlled impedance), (or) on
different layers or on the same layer spread apart, so long as the two
signals arrive in good condition at about the same time, meaning that each
is a well designed transmission line (another form of controlled
impedance) with the proper termination.

Don't you see that everything he is talking about here is relating to how to
get 2 lines from A to B with some form of controlled impedance, so
that either way, everything that he is talking about here is some form of
getting the two parts of a differential signal distributed or routed from
one point to the other as controlled impedance transmission lines, either
individually, or side by side.

This is why I say he is talking about apples and oranges, and this is
one of the parts of that conversation, which has absolutely nothing to do
with what I thought to be his original premise of whether simple
differential signals require a controlled impedance environment.

I mean I am having trouble even with his title. Take the first part,
Differential signaling doesn't require Differential Impedance. That
statement is true enough, but based on that, and especially on the second
part of the title one would assume that he was going to discuss simple
differential circuits, and why they do not necessarily have to be impedance
controlled (this is what I would call apples). But in reality ,what he is
actually talking about and saying in certain parts of the article is that
(controlled impedance ) Differential signaling doesn't require
Differential Impedance (to maintain controlled impedance) (and this is
what I would call the oranges, which is not really necessarily related to
the apples).

After about the middle of page two, he appears to get back on the subject of
simple differential signaling, beginning with How the current switch
works, but this is back to talking about apples.

I hope this is making some sense and you can understand what I am trying to
say.

There are really two different things that he is talking about here.

The first thing he is trying to say is that differential signals do not in
fact have to be controlled impedance signals, this is apples. I agree
with this. This is exemplified by the parts of the article which deal with
the aspect of differential signals being developed and used to overcome lack
of ground references

Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - A FLAWED PREMISE

2002-09-17 Thread JaMi Smith


- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - A FLAWED PREMISE


snip

   . . .  I simply intended that it was not of a concern to obtain a
 differential impedance between the lines. This distance does not have to
 be controlled down to a mil, as someone may try if they figured the traces
 had some required impedance effect between each other (differential
 impedance) and that spacing had to be rigidly maintained along the length
of
 the traces.


Brad, I try to address this in the post I just sent you, just before the
little Microsoft Doorbell rang for this post showed up in my Inbox, and in
cirtain circumstances , yes, you do in fact need to rigidly maintain spacing
. . .

Please see the other post.

JaMi

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

2002-09-17 Thread Brad Velander

Jami,
I don't think that I or Lee are mixing apples and oranges. To me
this article is so clear and comprehendible , I just don't see what you are
seeing.
Anyway, if you think Lee is wrong then you should discuss it with
him. It is not my task to defend him.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification 

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

2002-09-17 Thread JaMi Smith

Brad,

I am not asking you to defend him, you brought him up as an expert that I
needed to listen to, and all I am saying is that his article has some
serious problems and actual errors in it, and does not appear to answer the
original issue you had when you brought hit up.

I don't have time to correct every article on the internet that purports
to solve this problem, all I know is that his article has a major problem
(actually an error) in the third paragraph, and goes down hill from there,
and it does not appear to be addressing what it is claiming to address.

We obviously dissagree, but I still believe that that is due to a
misunderstanding on your part, and I gave you a fairly comprehensive and
detailed reason as to why I dissagreed with the article, and I stand by it.

If you actually believe that I made some technical error in my post, please
let me know exactly what it is, and I will gladly reevaluate it.

You can certainly forward my post to him, if you think that he would be
interested in my comments, and I certainly would like to know if the article
was actually puplished, but beyond that I really do have a board to finish,
and believe it or not, I really am not a member of the Internet Impedance
Police.

Notwithstanding all of that, and the fact that many people still appear to
not understand differintal impedance, I still believe that Altium needs to
look into this type of routing capability in DXP.

Have you even looked at the stufF from Dr. Johnson that I referenced in my
earlier post?

 Website:   http://signalintegrity.com/

 Newsletter Article:   http://signalintegrity.com/Pubs/news/5_2.htm


JaMi


- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.


 Jami,
 I don't think that I or Lee are mixing apples and oranges. To me
 this article is so clear and comprehendible , I just don't see what you
are
 seeing.
 Anyway, if you think Lee is wrong then you should discuss it with
 him. It is not my task to defend him.

 Sincerely,
 Brad Velander.

 Lead PCB Designer
 Norsat International Inc.
 Microwave Products
 Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
 Fax  (604) 292-9010
 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.norsat.com
 Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
 certification

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.

2002-09-17 Thread Ian Wilson

Surely this is OT now - what about any further discussion be held off this 
list. The forum admin has already mentioned that list membership is falling...
Ian

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs - OT?

2002-09-17 Thread Clive . Broome



Maybe off topic, but a very interesting thread, if people dont want to read this
thread, cant they just ignore it or something?

BR CB






Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 18/09/2002 08:57:30 AM

Please respond to Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To:   Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  Re: [PEDA] Autorouter and Differential Pairs.



Surely this is OT now - what about any further discussion be held off this
list. The forum admin has already mentioned that list membership is falling...
Ian






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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter just stops...

2002-06-12 Thread David . Watling


Hi,
I had something very similar a few years ago, and it was caused by a
circular board outline, which the autorouter doesn't like.  Have you got
any arcs in your board outline?

David Watling




   

Andy Gulliver

andy.gulliver@code   To: Protel User Group 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
scape.comcc:  

  Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter just 
stops... 
11/06/2002 15:53   

Please respond to  

Protel EDA Forum 

   

   





... doesn't crash, just stops:

On a fairly dense PCB, set up for 14 layers (8 signal, 6 power/ground) on a
5/5 design rule, I'm seeing strange router behaviour.

The router happily goes through the SMD fanout, memory  pattern routers
but
part way through the push 'n' shove pass it does a DRC and exits.  No
status
report, no error message, no crash - it just stops.

I've double checked that the board is within system capabilities, corrected
a few off-grid components and even re-fanned out four 1152-pin BGAs to make
sure the vias are all on-grid.  There are still off-grid pads, but that
sort
of thing hasn't stopped the router on previous designs.

The router seems to be objecting to something, albeit in a slightly more
restrained manner than usual, but the question is what?

Any hints/tips/solutions gratefully received.

(BTW, the Protel version is P99SE/SP6 and the PC is an 800-and-something
MHz
P3 with 512M SDRAM running Windows 2000 Professional)

Regards,

Andy Gulliver



* Tracking #: 0D6407EFA3F3654C90CDEC4D07962F5AD27F0FD9
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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter - preroutes

2002-03-01 Thread Dennis Saputelli

anyone know definitively:
1]
if i lock preroutes and then do not check 'lock all preroutes' in the
route all dialog
what will happen?
it seems to change some of them

2]
does 'automatically remove loops' check box have any effect on the
autorouter?

Dennis Saputelli


-- 
___
www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc.
   tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street  
  fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter - preroutes

2002-03-01 Thread Dennis Saputelli

or does it maybe mean 'lock all *locked* preroutes' ??

Dennis Saputelli

Dennis Saputelli wrote:
 
 anyone know definitively:
 1]
 if i lock preroutes and then do not check 'lock all preroutes' in the
 route all dialog
 what will happen?
 it seems to change some of them
 
 2]
 does 'automatically remove loops' check box have any effect on the
 autorouter?
 
 Dennis Saputelli
 
 --

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___
www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc.
   tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street  
  fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter - preroutes

2002-03-01 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 02:05 PM 3/1/2002 -0800, Dennis Saputelli wrote:
2]
does 'automatically remove loops' check box have any effect on the
autorouter?

I would be astonished to find that it had any effect whatever. 
automatically remove loops only affects loops being created during manual 
routing. It does not remove other loops, such as those created when it was 
off. The autorouter may indeed remove some loops, but it would be 
completely independent of the setting.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter Stability Problems

2002-01-20 Thread Ian Wilson

On 10:13 AM 19/01/2002 -0800, Brian Sherer said:

1) Protel doesn't flag buffer overruns at all, in any server. It can occur
when
for instance
multiple Polygon Pours are used instead of Split Planes on a multilayer
design.
It seems
that Polygons are handled as a multiplicity of primitives, while Split Planes
are handled as
single entities. Database size seems to grow exponentially if Polygon Pours
are
used.
In a failure to initialize or crash situation, this is often related to item
2.

Brian,

Can you explain more about this please?  I have never heard of buffer 
overruns used in this context.

Yes, as others have said, large polygons do cause the PCB file size to 
increase.  But in my experience this has been a linear increase reflecting 
the number of tracks in the polygon.  In the past there has been discussion 
on methods of reducing the sizes of polygons.

Again, I have not come across the concept of buffer overruns in the 
context of a file format such as Protels.  The Access database format (DDB) 
is only used to store proprietary BLOB data, and from memory the capacity 
of Access (for blobs) is 2 GB. Since 32-bit handles are used throughout the 
servers (as far as I can see from the SDK anyway) this would imply roughly 
4 billion entities per file.  Now it is possible that Protel chokes on 
larger files due to bugs or memory handling problems.

And I know that there are certain actions using select and move selections 
that can cause groups of entities to become sort-of invisible.  But this 
is not related to file size and I can see how this could be described as a 
buffer overrun.

I would like certainly like to know more about the buffer overruns you 
describe - especially in regard to the interaction with the autorouter.

Thanks,
Ian Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter Stability Problems

2002-01-19 Thread John Whittaker

Hi Brian

Thank you so much.  Yes, I have seen 'phantom primitives' (could select it,
but couldn't see it or delete it) and I have gotten polygon plane counts of
8 when it should have been 7.  This design has been heavily edited, as you
suspected.  I will review your answer in detail  follow the steps.

Have you heard about the upcoming Protel Release - 'Phoenix'?  Will this
improve upon the autorouter?

Another Member of your forum asked me to send him the database in Specctra
format to see what happens.  I did.  It'll be interesting!

Thanks again

John


-Original Message-
From: Brian Sherer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 12:13 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter Stability Problems

Hi, John-

In my experience, the two likeliest possibilities are 1) database buffer
overrun, and
2) phantom primitives that no longer exist but are being treated as real.

1) Protel doesn't flag buffer overruns at all, in any server. It can occur
when
for instance
multiple Polygon Pours are used instead of Split Planes on a multilayer
design.
It seems
that Polygons are handled as a multiplicity of primitives, while Split
Planes
are handled as
single entities. Database size seems to grow exponentially if Polygon Pours
are
used.
In a failure to initialize or crash situation, this is often related to
item
2.

2) For a design that has been heavily edited, there may be Polygons or Split
Planes
that exist in the database but are not displayed, or that duplicate existing
objects.
This is very hard to find, as Protel only sees the topmost or most recent
object if you
try to double-click an area to query existing entities. The phantom objects
are
not
directly editable, apparently because they have been officially
deleted/modified, even
though they still exist wherever Protel keeps track of electrical
connectivity
at each
physical point of the board.

There are two ways to deal with removal of duplicates. First, inspect the
design and
determine where the real planes/polygons should exist. Next, run Board Info
and
check
that all such objects are accounted for. If there are extra objects, you'll
have to delete them,
by A) export to Spread / Delete offending objects / Import from Spread.

Usually, the Spreadsheet server will also overflow.

Don't panic. Go back to the original file and do a Select All. Now select
Edit
/Move and
double click on each Polygon and Plane to cause the Select Object list
box to
appear.
Inspect the list for duplicate objects. If a duplicate is found, choose one
of
the duplicates
and move it to a neutral area well outside the active board area. Deselect
Outside the
area of the moved object, then Edit/Clear to permanently delete it. Deselect
All, then
repeat the process until all duplicate Polygons and Duplicate Planes are
removed.

There must be a 1:1 correspondence between the Number of Polygons in Board
Info, and
the actual Polygoncount by inspection. The autorouter will _not_ flag the
extras, however,
if it is able to successfully route, the DRC _will_ show the extra polygon
as a
clearance
errors at each point of the polygon.

This is the only way I have found to remove Phantom objects regardless of
their

size/complexity, and is useful for designs where repeated polygon edits have
trashed the database.

Brian Sherer
Foothill Services LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

At 09:32 AM 1/19/02 -0600, you wrote:

 Hi guys

 I have been  trying to get a board autorouted (I have done more
complicated
 boards than this one, although this is an odd shape) and am having lockups
 2minutes into the routing process, etc. I have 2 workstations that I ve
tried
 running this on, and both have the same result: (running 99SE with Service
 Pack 6, #6.6.7)

 Unable to initialize unless I select all the components, pre-routes, and
 track, copy them to a new file, then Update PCB from connected copper .
This
 is an extreme pain, as I have to redo my layer stackup and design rules.

 Lockups after a couple of minutes into the autorouting process;



 Never goes to 100% completion, although once it went to 97%.

 Previously I routed a Pentium III board with very few problems, but this
 board is somewhat less complex (10 layers, 3274 pads) this has been an
 absolute nightmare!  I have burned up 6 days trying to get this to run.
Any
 ideas?  Will I be forced to export to Specctra  send it out to a design
 bureau (very undesirable)

 Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!!!



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter Stability Problems

2002-01-19 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 10:13 AM 1/19/2002 -0800, Brian Sherer wrote:

It seems that Polygons are handled as a multiplicity of primitives, while
Split Planes are handled as
single entities. Database size seems to grow exponentially if Polygon
Pours are used.

This is not just an appearance? Pours, by definition, consist of a pile of 
tracks and arcs filling an area. The size of the pour depends on the pour 
parameters, but, inherently, a pour involves many more primitives than a 
negative plane. This is the reason I have recommended so many times that 
Protel move away from pours and toward positive/negative merges for filling 
areas.

The only reason for using pours is that the copper is explicit, making 
checking possible without any additional special programming. But this 
leaves negative planes without explicit checking, which is an undesireable 
situation by itself. In other words, the negative plane checking problem 
should be solved, and if it is solved, it then becomes practical to use 
negative merges to accomplish what pours now accomplish, with the benefits 
of reduction of database size, elimination of pour anomalies -- which can 
be quite a nuisance --, and, to boot, substantial reduction of plot sizes.

But I want to emphasize that this problem is not a special Protel problem. 
Most CAD systems don't check negative planes, it is not a trivial problem. 
But it is soluble, and I presume that Protel's programmers know how to 
solve it, since they haven't asked me! :-)

2) For a design that has been heavily edited, there may be Polygons or Split
Planes that exist in the database but are not displayed, or that duplicate
existing objects.

Some methods were given for locating and eliminating such objects. A 
generic technique for dealing with suspected persistent database corruption 
is to chop the file into pieces and find out if the problem exists in all 
the pieces. The spreadsheet might be useful for keeping pieces distinct 
This technique can be useful when all else fails

The current Protel router, while quite serviceable for many applications, 
is not considered state-of-the-art. It will be *very* interesting to see 
what we get in the next few months!



[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter Stability Problems

2002-01-19 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 12:16 PM 1/19/2002 -0600, John Whittaker wrote:
Have you heard about the upcoming Protel Release - 'Phoenix'?  Will this
improve upon the autorouter?

It is a near certainty. As a completely rewritten router, we expect, it may 
have some bugs, but I also suspect that we will be very glad to see it.

There is no sign, however, that the router or any other aspect of Phoenix 
is in Beta test. This is a matter of concern. Since Protel now has a formal 
Beta program with NDA, it is possible that some Beta testing is going on, 
but it seems quite unlikely that wide-scope Beta testing, needed to give 
the program a serious workout to find subtle bugs and shortcomings, has 
begun. If there are only a few testers, it is not really Beta.

http://www.protel.com/media/mr02_situs.htm

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-19 Thread Douglas McDonald

The new router coming, we are told, might be a more serious competitor to
Specctra. If this is true, then the price increases Protel might be well
worth it. Even if the router was not as good as Specctra but was
substantially better than the current router, it might still be worth it.
So we are waiting

It's slightly off topic, but why have Specctra withdrawn all their OEM 
licenses. Last time I contacted them they went to great lengths to tell me 
that I wouldn't be able to get it from any other source but them. Has the 
thought of a good autorouter from Altium rattled them. Have they seen what's 
coming?


Doug

_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-19 Thread Ian Wilson

On 10:30 PM 18/11/2001 -1100, Douglas McDonald said:
The new router coming, we are told, might be a more serious competitor to
Specctra. If this is true, then the price increases Protel might be well
worth it. Even if the router was not as good as Specctra but was
substantially better than the current router, it might still be worth it.
So we are waiting

It's slightly off topic, but why have Specctra withdrawn all their OEM 
licenses. Last time I contacted them they went to great lengths to tell me 
that I wouldn't be able to get it from any other source but them. Has the 
thought of a good autorouter from Altium rattled them. Have they seen 
what's coming?


Doug

I would doubt that Spectra (Cadence) would see a discussed, hoped-for, 
never-seen, alluded-to, vapour-ware router from a company with a less than 
glittering reputation for V1.0 releases as an input to a business decision 
matrix.  My feeling is that Protel is pretty much disregarded as a serious 
competitor by the big names in the US.  This can be an advantage if your 
competitors disregard you but their clients don't, of course.

PCAD has some visibility but does Protel?

Ian

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-19 Thread Sean James

Yea, there's rubilith, orangelith or the old red  blue method.
Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170
- Original Message - 
From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter


Autorouter?

Whats an autorouter?

You mean you there's something besides black tape and #16 blades?

JaMi Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:07 AM
To: Protel EDA Form
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter

Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB
designs?
Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not
setting
it up properly. What do you people do?

Tim Fifield


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-18 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 11:42 PM 11/17/01 -0500, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:
Abdul, have you tried using a trackball and wrist rest?

Well, yes. I prefer a mouse. What I described about a frozen shoulder was 
about five years ago. I had already purchased a good chair -- highly 
recommended, though one does not need to spend $600, I got a very 
adjustable one -- the arms are very important -- for about $175. But the 
best chair is no good if one has bad habits, and for many years I had 
driven Tango with the left arm suspended above the keyboard, more or less, 
to hit the shortcut keys to quickly change mode.

I now have a gel pad for my wrists at the keyboard, and a wrist pad for the 
mouse. I make sure to keep my arms' weight on the pads and chair arm rests.

Carpal tunnel syndrome I got from taping moving boxes, not from my 
computer. But had I not changed my habits from the shoulder incident, I 
have little doubt but that the computer would have done that one too.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-17 Thread Georg Beckmann

I used the protel router for a lot of succsessful designs. Since about a
year
I have the specctra too.
This weeks I was on a 2 days seminar about specctra.

Here some general information about autorouter discussion.

- You cannot expect, that you push a button and get the ready done board you
thinking of.

- The autorouter works with fix rules you define before , you change,
 invent and giveup rules while you are manual routing.

- The autorouter saves a lot of time, you can try different placing options
routing strategies and so on.

- Let the autorouter do the major job, do the rest with manual routing.

- It's often easy to complete the board manually, because the autorouter
can't   push parts and can't see the whole board but a single net at a time.

- Specctra sells its product partswise. You have to find out, what you
really  need. One options can cost the same as the basic version.
In other words, they sell you a car. If you got it, they tell you that
you car works even better with a motor. The next questions is ' how about
some wheels' and so on.

-  Anyway, I'm sure, that to work 'together' with an autorouter saves you a
lot of time and you have a return of invest in a short time.

Georg

-Ursprungliche Nachricht-
Von: Steve Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Gesendet: Samstag, 17. November 2001 02:39
An: Protel EDA Forum
Betreff: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter



 $1K a year, I'd think Mr. Baggett could afford for a tool rapidly
 being improved. Obviously, if it were not being improved, even $1
 would be too much!

To me, this is the crux of the matter. Pay your money now and
wait and see what you get for it. An alternative would be put your
$1k into a slot machine and use the resulting income to buy
Specctra.

Steve.


==
Steve BaldwinElectronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn  http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealandph  +64 9 820-2221
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  fax +64 9 820-1929
==

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-17 Thread Mike Reagan



 -  Anyway, I'm sure, that to work 'together' with an autorouter saves you
a
 lot  of time and you have a return of invest in a short time.


I agree with George,
If you are laying boards out all of the time Spectra will pay for itself in
a year.  It is that fast  and  that good ! I lay boards out using spectra
that require little or no clean up. You will never here me plugging
Cadence, but the autorouter is superb.So ask ourselves now if Protel
released a real autorouter and it cost us  2k,   wouldn't it be worth the 2
K ATS price  just to get an autorouter?   Spectra at 35 K vs ATS 2K?   I
could pay the ATS fee for the next 15 years and still be ahead.   If you
don't get enough use out of the tools , why buy them in the first place.
It reminds me of my father who is retired has nothing to do so he decides to
dig a hole in his yard  for a fish pond.  He went out and bought a new
freaquen backhoe  to dig a  2 x 4 hole.   I asked him why he didn't rent a
backhoe instead buying one, he replied he just always  wanted one.It got
used one, sat for a year then was sold.  So the hole cost him about 50 K to
dig.   If you are not using these tools full time consider subcontracting,
design services. I know that's a tough pill to swallow, but someone who
buys spectra has certainly evaluated  their requirements and justified the
savings.  The same goes for the ATS plan, if you aren't using the tools,
then its tough to justify the cost.  A new autorouter alone will be worth
ATS.   Please ALTUIM ,  give us the router!

Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick DM

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-17 Thread Don Ingram


 - You cannot expect, that you push a button and get the ready done board
you
 thinking of.


Unless you are a new Customer or you work in Marketing for the Software
supplier...

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-17 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support

 On the other hand, today we have carpal tunnel syndrome and I got a frozen
 left shoulder from hours of having my left hand hovering over the keyboard
 while the right hand moved the mouse. Don't try this one at home, it took
a
 year of physical therapy to unfreeze the shoulder.

Abdul, have you tried using a trackball and wrist rest?  During my recovery
from surgery, I took my workstation home and put it on a wheeled table (my
father made it) that overhangs my bed, like a hospital table.  Since the
keyboard support area is tilted down, a mouse was impossible to use because
it would roll off onto the bed.  I found a trackball I really like.  It's a
Logitech Trackman Wheel.  It's a compact, simple trackball that is a mouse
replacement.  You can rest your hand on it while using it, unlike many
trackballs.  The ball is low mass, easy to move with your thumb.  If you are
right handed like I am, it may be a good alternative for you.  Instead of
hovering your hand over a mouse, you can rest it on the trackball.

Get a gel-filled wrist rest to put at the base of your keyboard.  This will
let you avoid supporting all the weight of your arms when typing.

Other things that might help your ergonomic situation:  a pull-out keyboard
drawer and a really good chair.  Most work tables and office tables position
the keyboard too high.  My desk is a regular folding work table (el cheapo
from any office supply store).  It's a good height for electronics work but
not keyboard use.  I use a pull-out keyboard drawer which puts the keyboard
about 3 inches lower than the table top, and it frees up a lot of table
space too.  It's also good because I don't have to sit as close to the
table, I can sit back in my chair.  Of course, if you are very tall this may
be too low for you.  I am 6'3 and it's just right for me.

A really good chair is essential.  I went to a local office supply store
(not Office Depot) and sat in many chairs until I found the perfect one.  I
got a medium-back task chair with fabric upholstery, a 5-spoke metal base,
good lower back support and adjustable padded arms.  A fabulous chair, but
pricey (about $600).  I can sit in it all day and still feel good.  It has
about 12 different adjustments, so it can be tweaked to perfection.

Just so we are on topic:  Good ergonomics will help you during those long
Protel sessions...

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Juha Pajunen

I have been using Protel99SE now about
two years and have not never used autorouter.
I try is once and end up that same conclusion as Tim Fifield

PS. I am a new guy i this forum

Sincerely,
Juha Pajunen, Hw Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 16. marraskuuta 2001 16:07
To: Protel EDA Form
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter


Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB designs?
Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not setting
it up properly. What do you people do?

Tim Fifield

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Rene Tschaggelar

I don't even use it for small designs. I tried it once
and found it useless. Admittedly I do strictly 2 layer
designs. It might be useful for multilayer designs though.

Rene
--
http://www.ibrtses.com

Tim Fifield wrote:

 Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB designs?
 Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
 bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not setting
 it up properly. What do you people do?



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support

How large is large for you?  I use the 99SE autorouter for my large
designs, but not for small designs.  It takes a lot of practice and
trial/error to figure out how to set up the autorouting rules for each
board.  And each board may take different rules.  You just have to have
patience.  Typically I will spend a half day tweaking rules and testing them
with trial routing runs.  After you get an acceptable run, you will need to
do some manual cleanup.  Yes, it doesn't seem very productive.  But it is
still faster than routing the whole thing manually.

When I say large, perhaps a better metric is difficult.  Our DOS Stamp
is a 6-layer PCB with only 10 ICs on it, but it is very small (2.6 x 2 in.)
and has SMT parts on both sides.  Not a large design, but quite difficult
given the small area and parts on both sides.  The router does a good job on
this board with the right rules.

Another board I did recently was a PC/104 form factor 486-class custom SBC.
8 layers (2 power, 1 ground, 5 signal), 2 large PQFP208 devices and 12 other
ICs.  The router did a good job on it.  An afternoon to tweak the rules, and
30 minutes to clean up afterwards.

If you have lots of replicated circuitry with parallel, ordered busses, you
can probably do better with manual routing.  But if the circuitry lays out
randomly, as most of mine do, autorouting is a more productive choice.
The pinouts of most of the chips and the placement of I/O connectors are
constraints you cannot do anything about.  If you have PLD/FPGAs, you can
control the pinout of these devices somewhat.  I tend to let the PLD/FPGA
fitter do pin assigment, because I want the best utilization of chip
resources.  But the more large chips you have in your design, and the more
vendors of chips, the more random your layout will be.

Work with the router for a while.  Everything in autorouter lore says it
should be a pushbutton process.  They don't say how many buttons you have
to push to get good results!  Also, keep in mind that an autorouter will
never be as smart as you, only faster than you.

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Form [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:07 AM
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter


 Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB
designs?
 Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
 bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not setting
 it up properly. What do you people do?

 Tim Fifield



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Darryl Newberry

My company has lots of money so they bought Specctra 10.0. Our designs
aren't physically that big or dense so I still prefer to route by hand for
best results. Plus I don't really do that many boards in a year. Specctra
performance is great but you have to learn all about DO files. 

I was not at all impressed with the Protel AR.

Darryl Newberry
Freedom Scientific
2850 SE Market Pl
Stuart FL 34997
(561) 223-6443 tel
(561) 223-6413 fax
http://www.freedomscientific.com
All information contained or disclosed herein is proprietary and
confidential to Freedom Scientific. 
Opinions expressed by the sender do not necessarily reflect Freedom
Scientific corporate policy.

-Original Message-
From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 09:07
To: Protel EDA Form
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter


Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large 
PCB designs?
Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm 
not setting
it up properly. What do you people do?

Tim Fifield


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Sean James

I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
teeth with hand taping.
Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170
- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Form [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:07 AM
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter


 Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB
designs?
 Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
 bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not setting
 it up properly. What do you people do?

 Tim Fifield


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support

 I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
 teeth with hand taping.

Ouch, that must have hurt!  Personally, I have my dentist do my dental work.
;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  http://www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Sean James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter


 I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
 teeth with hand taping.
 Sean James
 PCB Designer
 Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
 102 Grove Street
 Worcester, MA 01605
 (TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
 (FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support

 I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
 teeth with hand taping.

Fortunately, I never had to use the mylar tape layout.  But I have manually
routed quite a few boards.  Until the Protel AR came along, I never did
autorouting, because the few autorouters I had access to were all useless.
Really useless, not just marginally useful.  I never worked for any employer
that would spend the money on a useful router - they were all too busy
blowing money on the Mech guys for Intergraph workstations in the 5 and 6
figures.  Never mind that Autocad ($3K) on a fast PC ($4K) could do that
stuff (circa 1990).  Even though the Mechs had all that fancy hardware, they
seemed to be more interested in what us spark chasers (EEs) were doing.
Once one of the Mechs asked what software I used to connect the pads
together on the CAD system.  I told him I was using the Bago-router.  He
thought I was being serious and asked what the Bago-router was.  I replied
It's a 100% completion, rip-up-and-retry router (this was before
push-and-shove).  Wow, that's cool!  I wish we had CAD technology like
that, he said.

So when I say that the Protel AR is useful, remember that I have never seen
or used the pricier ARs, such as Specctra.  I am sure I would love Specctra,
but I can't compare it to Protel AR.  All I can tell you is that the Protel
AR is useful, but takes patience to use properly.

After I started my own business (1991) I went without an autorouter until
the Protel router came along (1996).  It was the only affordable ($1K) AR at
the time.  I didn't have $10K+ to spend on AR software.  I do enough PCB
design work to justify having an AR, but not enough to justify $10K+ for
Specctra.  So, for me, the Protel AR is the only router for me at this time.
I am aware that there are better ARs out there, but the cost is not
justified for my organization.  When good folks like Abdul, bless his heart,
assert that Protel is a good value even at $8K, they should keep in mind
that some organizations do more than PCB layout for hire.  My company has
had to acquire not only CAD software, but expensive test equipment, parts
inventories, business software, employees, etc.  The money I have to spend
on that other stuff is money I can't spend on Protel/Altium price increases.

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  http://www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: Sean James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter


 I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
 teeth with hand taping.
 Sean James
 PCB Designer
 Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
 102 Grove Street
 Worcester, MA 01605
 (TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
 (FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread David W. Gulley

Tim Fifield wrote:
 
 Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB designs?
 Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
 bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not setting
 it up properly. What do you people do?

I have used it for medium designs (3 560-pin BGAs, 4 100/144-pin QFPs,
30 or so smaller SM ICs and several hundred discrete R, C, L and XTAL,
plus connectors, test points, etc.) I hand routed the speed critical and
analog sections, set up many design rules (layers, clearances per IC,
per via, etc.) and then turned the AR loose. Spent about 2 hours
cleanup, but I feel like I had good results and it did the job MUCH
faster than I could have done by hand. For large designs, I typically
use Specctra.

For small designs, I may hand route or throw the AR into it just to see
how it does. Often I am surprised by how well it performs!

Sometimes, I setup keepout lines (constraining the traces within
specific regions) and turn the AR loose doing analog and speed critical
signals as well as the rest of the board. I usually have a good bit to
clean up (setting length, max parallel and length rules on signals and
verifying they are within tolerance), but even then I find the AR did as
well as or better than some layout shops had done on designs which were
similar but using other tools.

My advice is set up every rule you can find (even if the AR does not
obey them) and then DRC/tweek until YOU are satisfied. If you think the
cleanup will take too long either add some constraints (new rules or
keepout guides), or do it by hand.

Don't get me wrong, I complain about the AR because there are a LOT of
quirks which I think Altium (nee Protel) should put serious effort into
correcting; but for the price, it does a reasonable job.

David W. Gulley
Destiny Designs


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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 12:04 PM 11/16/01 -0500, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:
When good folks like Abdul, bless his heart,
assert that Protel is a good value even at $8K, they should keep in mind
that some organizations do more than PCB layout for hire.

Certainly. I don't need simulation, PLD programming, etc. It used to be 
that you could buy Schematic and PCB and the other tools separately. In 
fact, that might still be true, but they are inordinately expensive that 
way, basically Protel 98 Schematic and PCB cost almost as much as the whole 
Protel 98 Suite, so only if only if one only needed one tool was it 
worthwhile buying it separately.

   My company has
had to acquire not only CAD software, but expensive test equipment, parts
inventories, business software, employees, etc.  The money I have to spend
on that other stuff is money I can't spend on Protel/Altium price increases.

Existing users are not seeing much in the way of price increases. 
Maintenance if it goes to $2K per year, yes, that would be an increase, and 
that *is* the currently announced price. But it does not make complete 
sense, which is why many of us suspect that when the smoke clears, it will 
not be that much.

$1K a year, I'd think Mr. Baggett could afford for a tool rapidly being 
improved. Obviously, if it were not being improved, even $1 would be too 
much! $2K per year, well, as I have noted many times, that, by industry 
standards, would correspond to a price for the package of about $12K. 
That's too much for Protel, I think. I was happier with Protel at $6K, the 
jump to $8K was too fast for me, but I still think that, at the price, it 
is the best tool available, so I have to consider it worthwhile. 
Worthwhile is a relative term assuming that one is going to choose *some* 
CAD tool.

We used to have plenty of users writing on this list who were calling the 
Protel suite a piece of . Yet, somehow, they were voluntarily 
continuing to use it. They did not want to sell it, even though Protel 
allows resale. Obviously, they thought it was terrible, but they did not 
think anything else in the same price range was better.

A professional uses the available tools, expecting that none of them are 
perfect; in fact, a good professional can use lousy tools to come up with 
good results, even though he will obviously prefer better ones.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 12:04 PM 11/16/01 -0500, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:

Once one of the Mechs asked what software I used to connect the pads
together on the CAD system.  I told him I was using the Bago-router.  He
thought I was being serious and asked what the Bago-router was.  I replied
It's a 100% completion, rip-up-and-retry router (this was before
push-and-shove).  Wow, that's cool!  I wish we had CAD technology like
that, he said.

Reminds me of the blurb I wrote for the bio on an article about a cassette 
interface for the Altair 8800 that I wrote years ago for Byte Magazine, 
this would be about 1978 or 1979. I wrote that the article had been 
prepared on a ten-channel digital interface. I.e., a typewriter controlled 
by ten fingers.

Comparisons between Specctra and the current Protel autorouter can be a bit 
silly if the difference in price is not considered. Realistically, we can 
think of the Protel autorouter as costing about $1K. You can get a 
brain-damaged version of Spectra useful for low layer counts for about 
$10K. Yes, the full version of Specctra is a much better router. It ought 
to be.

The new router coming, we are told, might be a more serious competitor to 
Specctra. If this is true, then the price increases Protel might be well 
worth it. Even if the router was not as good as Specctra but was 
substantially better than the current router, it might still be worth it. 
So we are waiting

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 11:32 AM 11/16/01 -0500, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote:
  I've never have used autorouters. I'm from the old school, where I cut my
  teeth with hand taping.

Ouch, that must have hurt!  Personally, I have my dentist do my dental work.

My teeth I never cut, my fingers, yes, and I think more than one X-acto 
blade ended up in my leg.

Yes, kids, in the old days, blood on the tracks

And my eyes were completely shot after years of placing tape to an accuracy 
of better than 5 mils. For 2X artwork, that was better than 2.5 mils on the 
board.

the sacrifices we made for future generations!

On the other hand, today we have carpal tunnel syndrome and I got a frozen 
left shoulder from hours of having my left hand hovering over the keyboard 
while the right hand moved the mouse. Don't try this one at home, it took a 
year of physical therapy to unfreeze the shoulder.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread JaMi Smith

Autorouter?

Whats an autorouter?

You mean you there's something besides black tape and #16 blades?

JaMi Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:07 AM
To: Protel EDA Form
Subject: [PEDA] Autorouter

Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB
designs?
Do the majority of board designers do everything manually? I don't even
bother with the autorouter anymore, it's to messy. Perhaps I'm not
setting
it up properly. What do you people do?

Tim Fifield

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Steve Baldwin


 $1K a year, I'd think Mr. Baggett could afford for a tool rapidly
 being improved. Obviously, if it were not being improved, even $1
 would be too much! 

To me, this is the crux of the matter. Pay your money now and 
wait and see what you get for it. An alternative would be put your 
$1k into a slot machine and use the resulting income to buy 
Specctra.

Steve.


==
Steve BaldwinElectronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn  http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealandph  +64 9 820-2221
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  fax +64 9 820-1929
==

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Re: [PEDA] Autorouter

2001-11-16 Thread Dwight Harm

Not doing anything too large, but mostly use autorouter, with some manual
pre-routing. 300+ components, SMT  thru-hole, 4-layer, mixed
analog+digital. On the dense side (for me), 1200 pads on 5x7 board -- I'm
happy to let the autorouter find a way! (Usually gets it about 98%.)

-Original Message-
From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:07 AM

Just curious... Does anybody use the 99SE autorouter for large PCB designs?

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Re: [PEDA] autorouter

2001-07-23 Thread Richard Thompson

Wow thanks!!  I would never have found that :-)  It was indeed a rogue
footprint, protel couldn't be a bit more helpful though could it ;-)  i had
to remove each footprint until it worked like you suggested.

many thanks

Rich



 Hello Richard,
 
 I have had this problem once before and found that one of my footprints
 (SOT23) was corrupted so after updating this footprint all was okay. 
 
 You ask how I found this?
 
 I suggest you first check your library ddb and run a database compact and
 repair as I found my library with the corrupted footprint would produce an
 error. This may help you find which library ddb has the problem.
 
 Then you may have to remove each footprint on the design in sequence
 checking the router each time then undo if the router still gives you the
 error. Sorry, I as Protel did not report which footprint is corrupted this
 seemed to be the only way. 
 
 Hope this helps.
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Re: [PEDA] autorouter

2001-07-22 Thread SIMM Maurie

Hello Richard,

I have had this problem once before and found that one of my footprints
(SOT23) was corrupted so after updating this footprint all was okay. 

You ask how I found this?

I suggest you first check your library ddb and run a database compact and
repair as I found my library with the corrupted footprint would produce an
error. This may help you find which library ddb has the problem.

Then you may have to remove each footprint on the design in sequence
checking the router each time then undo if the router still gives you the
error. Sorry, I as Protel did not report which footprint is corrupted this
seemed to be the only way. 

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Maurie Simm, CID
CAD Systems Admin/Designer,
IPC Certified Interconnect Designer
 
Tenix Defence Systems Pty. Ltd. 
Systems Division - SA


-Original Message-
From: Richard Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:38 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] autorouter


Hi guys,

Can anyone explain why the autorouter is giving me this error message
please?

one or more connections cannot be routed due to design rule violations

this happens even if i try to just route a single component or net as well
as the whole board.  i have done a done a complete drc (and online checking
is active) there are no errors/violations reported.  i have tried removing
all of the design rules and it still refuses to play ball.

any ideas?

Rich

Richard Thompson
BLT Industries



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Re: [PEDA] autorouter

2001-07-20 Thread Brooks,Bill

Hi Richard,
I would suggest that you check your setup on Design Rules for the
autorouter. It may be that the spacing you are telling the program to
maintain is so large that there are no paths for the router to take that
would not violate the spacing rule. 
- Bill Brooks

Bill Brooks 
PCB Design Engineer 
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS INC.
3030 Enterprise Court 
Vista, CA 92083 
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter 
http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm



-Original Message-
From: Richard Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:08 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] autorouter


Hi guys,

Can anyone explain why the autorouter is giving me this error message
please?

one or more connections cannot be routed due to design rule violations

this happens even if i try to just route a single component or net as well
as the whole board.  i have done a done a complete drc (and online checking
is active) there are no errors/violations reported.  i have tried removing
all of the design rules and it still refuses to play ball.

any ideas?

Rich

Richard Thompson
BLT Industries



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Re: [PEDA] autorouter will not use all signal layers

2001-05-07 Thread Pierce, Scott

do you have your layers setup in the DRC'er?
Scott

-Original Message-
From: Michael Reynolds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:15 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
Subject: [PEDA] autorouter will not use all signal layers


Hi,

Protel99SE autorouter seems to be using only top and bottom layers even
though the layer stack shows two mid layers.  How do I enable the two mid
layers to be used by the autorouter???

thanks,

Mike Reynolds
Blazie Engineering, a division of Freedom Scientific
2850 SE Market Place
Stuart, FL 34997
561-223-6443   FAX 561-223-6413




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Re: [PEDA] autorouter will not use all signal layers

2001-05-07 Thread HxEngr