Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Tim Fifield

Joe,

Please explain why this sounds dangerous? What do you put on your mechanical
layer that is not contained on the silk screen?

Tim

-Original Message-
From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:33 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


Tim,
It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for the assembly
info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all this stuff on a
separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
Joe


- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Richard,

 What I do is make a copy of the .ddb file (renaming it appropriately) and
 create the assembly drawing from it. I delete all but the .pcb and print
 preview files.
 Then I auto position all ref des to center (with correct rotation).
 In the print preview I use top and bottom overlays with the mechanical
 outline and title block. I set it up on an 11x17 and create a .pdf file.

 I find this is quite neat and clear when assembling as the ref des are
 inside the component outline.

 Tim


 
 * Tracking #: 524F310DD953EB41BC284D893FB206FADF1F2123
 *
 



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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Brad Velander

Tim,
I am not trying to answer for Joe but here is what we do. We include
in our library land patterns a mechanical layer with a precise 1:1 scale of
the component and the special .designator string. This is our assembly
layer. It is also the sanity check layer where you can look at the real part
dimensions and measure the distances between any components. You can't do
this with a silkscreen that must clear pads, mounting holes or other copper
obstacles. Dangerous using the silkscreen? I don't quite understand that
reference but using this method is definitely advantageous.
Now if only we had mechanical or special assembly layer pairing like
most every other CAD package have, we would be laughing for even
double-sided assemblies.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification 



 -Original Message-
 From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:33 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
 Joe,
 
 Please explain why this sounds dangerous? What do you put on 
 your mechanical
 layer that is not contained on the silk screen?
 
 Tim
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:33 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
 Tim,
 It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for 
 the assembly
 info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all 
 this stuff on a
 separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
 Joe


* Tracking #: 381CB48292AE4F4D9B8D5E8B4A00EFF3D4299245
*


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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Robert M. Wolfe

Tim,
One of my major complaints about Protel is its lack
of assembly layer capability, there should be 2 other
layers call them mechanical or whatever that automatically
mirror AND change to a designated other layer when
that part is pushed to bottom or top. The Top  Bottom Overlay layers do
this however there are many times and situations where I want an exact image
of the part
but would not want all of that in silkscreen. One good
example is connectors that hang over edge of board, why provide silkscreen
data that clearly will go off edge of
board. Also there may be a little more detail required
in an assembly view you would not want on silkscreen.
There is no clean way I've seen in 99SE to handle
this. Not sure I'd call it dangerous, but I just do not
like putting the kind of detail into a silkscreen layer
that could potentially end up on pads. Yes I know
the fab vendor can do this but why put too many places
on a design that this has to be done.
Bob Wolfe.

- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Joe,

 Please explain why this sounds dangerous? What do you put on your
mechanical
 layer that is not contained on the silk screen?

 Tim

 -Original Message-
 From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:33 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Tim,
 It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for the assembly
 info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all this stuff on a
 separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
 Joe


 - Original Message -
 From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


  Richard,
 
  What I do is make a copy of the .ddb file (renaming it appropriately)
and
  create the assembly drawing from it. I delete all but the .pcb and print
  preview files.
  Then I auto position all ref des to center (with correct rotation).
  In the print preview I use top and bottom overlays with the mechanical
  outline and title block. I set it up on an 11x17 and create a .pdf file.
 
  I find this is quite neat and clear when assembling as the ref des are
  inside the component outline.
 
  Tim
 
 
  
  * Tracking #: 524F310DD953EB41BC284D893FB206FADF1F2123
  *
  
 




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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Robert M. Wolfe

Brad,
The only problem I still see with this is the fact that this ONE
mechanical layer is in fact still one layer and not easily
if at all able to be separated out for the bottom assembly view.
If there is a way I would love to hear it, I have in fact used
a mechanical layer in my library for an assembly layer in hopes of future
enhancments from Protel to actually use this layer properly.
For now I use as you stated, but there really needs to be an association
with two layers for this to work right. If there was a way to change
all bottom parts using this machanical layer to another layer that would
work but again not clean, this should all happen as soon as you push
the part.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Tim,
 I am not trying to answer for Joe but here is what we do. We include
 in our library land patterns a mechanical layer with a precise 1:1 scale
of
 the component and the special .designator string. This is our assembly
 layer. It is also the sanity check layer where you can look at the real
part
 dimensions and measure the distances between any components. You can't do
 this with a silkscreen that must clear pads, mounting holes or other
copper
 obstacles. Dangerous using the silkscreen? I don't quite understand that
 reference but using this method is definitely advantageous.
 Now if only we had mechanical or special assembly layer pairing like
 most every other CAD package have, we would be laughing for even
 double-sided assemblies.

 Sincerely,
 Brad Velander.

 Lead PCB Designer
 Norsat International Inc.
 Microwave Products
 Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
 Fax  (604) 292-9010
 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.norsat.com
 Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
 certification



  -Original Message-
  From: Tim Fifield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:33 AM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
  Joe,
 
  Please explain why this sounds dangerous? What do you put on
  your mechanical
  layer that is not contained on the silk screen?
 
  Tim
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:33 PM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
  Tim,
  It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for
  the assembly
  info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all
  this stuff on a
  separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
  Joe

 
 * Tracking #: 381CB48292AE4F4D9B8D5E8B4A00EFF3D4299245
 *
 




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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Brad Velander

Robert,
you will see that I indicated that Protel/Altium needs a
mechanical/assembly layer pairing just as most packages have or have had for
many many years. I think that I heard on the DXP forum that this is a
reality in DXP, no guarantees. Not that I care, DXP is a very distant glint
in my eye at the moment.

Using the mechanical layer for assembly on bottom assemblies. It can
be done, but no, it is not clean or easy and can be loaded with
possibilities for errors.

With all of your parts placed and the board completed. Assumes that
you normal mechanical layer is top assembly. Select all the components that
were placed on the bottom layer. Unlock the primitives of those selected
components. Select the unlocked primitives of the mechanical layer (should
only be the ones for components on the bottom layer). Use a global edit to
transfer the selected primitives to a bottom mechanical assembly layer. Use
a global edit to lock all component primitives again. Done! Do your assembly
prints or gerbers with the layer inverted and you will have an as seen from
the bottom assembly view. Not too bad but still more cumbersome then we
should have to deal with in this day and age.

Ooops forgot, if you use the .designator string as we do on the
assembly layer, you have to mirror the .designator strings when you transfer
them to the bottom assembly layer. There is no easy way to do this,
basically one by one is the only acceptable manner.

PADS did it automagically 6+ years ago, PCAD did it approx. 3 - 4
years ago in a slightly different manner but it worked. Protel has never
done it since ver 1.0, what is wrong with this picture?

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification 



 -Original Message-
 From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:01 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
 Brad,
 The only problem I still see with this is the fact that this ONE
 mechanical layer is in fact still one layer and not easily
 if at all able to be separated out for the bottom assembly view.
 If there is a way I would love to hear it, I have in fact used
 a mechanical layer in my library for an assembly layer in 
 hopes of future
 enhancments from Protel to actually use this layer properly.
 For now I use as you stated, but there really needs to be an 
 association
 with two layers for this to work right. If there was a way to change
 all bottom parts using this machanical layer to another layer 
 that would
 work but again not clean, this should all happen as soon as you push
 the part.
 Bob Wolfe


* Tracking #: CA1E4AE66DC0824ABD750F0592FDE7C79D06CF8E
*


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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Robert M. Wolfe

Brad,
Thanks very much, I too looked at it that way but when I realized the
step to unlock the primitives of all those parts was involved and
like you say the number of steps and not
being clean I totaly abandoned that idea. Everytime I thought
I had a neat or better way to handle it there was always a few gotcha's.
The silk is my assembly output as is plain an simple. Not pretty
but I refuse to take that many steps and the kind of steps
to get a proper top and bottom assembly dwg.
Just thought you might of had a neat trick for this one.
Your right most CAD systems handled this well
many moons ago. Oh well, thanks again though
for the info, I'll just keep it this way till DXP takes
care of it. I'm ready though with that mechanical layer
just in case I do ultimately get to DXP.
So far been able to tell customers that
if you really want a better assembly dwg this is what it
will take and they have agreed with me.
Thanks
Bob Wolfe

- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Robert,
 you will see that I indicated that Protel/Altium needs a
 mechanical/assembly layer pairing just as most packages have or have had
for
 many many years. I think that I heard on the DXP forum that this is a
 reality in DXP, no guarantees. Not that I care, DXP is a very distant
glint
 in my eye at the moment.

 Using the mechanical layer for assembly on bottom assemblies. It can
 be done, but no, it is not clean or easy and can be loaded with
 possibilities for errors.

 With all of your parts placed and the board completed. Assumes that
 you normal mechanical layer is top assembly. Select all the components
that
 were placed on the bottom layer. Unlock the primitives of those selected
 components. Select the unlocked primitives of the mechanical layer (should
 only be the ones for components on the bottom layer). Use a global edit to
 transfer the selected primitives to a bottom mechanical assembly layer.
Use
 a global edit to lock all component primitives again. Done! Do your
assembly
 prints or gerbers with the layer inverted and you will have an as seen
from
 the bottom assembly view. Not too bad but still more cumbersome then we
 should have to deal with in this day and age.

 Ooops forgot, if you use the .designator string as we do on the
 assembly layer, you have to mirror the .designator strings when you
transfer
 them to the bottom assembly layer. There is no easy way to do this,
 basically one by one is the only acceptable manner.

 PADS did it automagically 6+ years ago, PCAD did it approx. 3 - 4
 years ago in a slightly different manner but it worked. Protel has never
 done it since ver 1.0, what is wrong with this picture?

 Sincerely,
 Brad Velander.

 Lead PCB Designer
 Norsat International Inc.
 Microwave Products
 Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
 Fax  (604) 292-9010
 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.norsat.com
 Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
 certification



  -Original Message-
  From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:01 PM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...
 
 
  Brad,
  The only problem I still see with this is the fact that this ONE
  mechanical layer is in fact still one layer and not easily
  if at all able to be separated out for the bottom assembly view.
  If there is a way I would love to hear it, I have in fact used
  a mechanical layer in my library for an assembly layer in
  hopes of future
  enhancments from Protel to actually use this layer properly.
  For now I use as you stated, but there really needs to be an
  association
  with two layers for this to work right. If there was a way to change
  all bottom parts using this machanical layer to another layer
  that would
  work but again not clean, this should all happen as soon as you push
  the part.
  Bob Wolfe

 
 * Tracking #: CA1E4AE66DC0824ABD750F0592FDE7C79D06CF8E
 *
 




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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-10 Thread Joe Sapienza

Tim,

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner. I'm on a US government contract and
working in Isolation and on site for the remainder of the week. Not to
mention I have to actually drive there.

Anyway it appears that The answers to your questions were pretty well
covered by other responses today.

Joe
- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Joe,

 Please explain why this sounds dangerous? What do you put on your
mechanical
 layer that is not contained on the silk screen?

 Tim

 -Original Message-
 From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:33 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Tim,
 It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for the assembly
 info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all this stuff on a
 separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
 Joe


 - Original Message -
 From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


  Richard,
 
  What I do is make a copy of the .ddb file (renaming it appropriately)
and
  create the assembly drawing from it. I delete all but the .pcb and print
  preview files.
  Then I auto position all ref des to center (with correct rotation).
  In the print preview I use top and bottom overlays with the mechanical
  outline and title block. I set it up on an 11x17 and create a .pdf file.
 
  I find this is quite neat and clear when assembling as the ref des are
  inside the component outline.
 
  Tim
 
 
  

  * Tracking #: 524F310DD953EB41BC284D893FB206FADF1F2123
  *
  
 




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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-09 Thread Tim Fifield

Richard,

What I do is make a copy of the .ddb file (renaming it appropriately) and
create the assembly drawing from it. I delete all but the .pcb and print
preview files.
Then I auto position all ref des to center (with correct rotation).
In the print preview I use top and bottom overlays with the mechanical
outline and title block. I set it up on an 11x17 and create a .pdf file.

I find this is quite neat and clear when assembling as the ref des are
inside the component outline.

Tim



* Tracking #: 524F310DD953EB41BC284D893FB206FADF1F2123
*


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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-09 Thread Joe Sapienza

Tim,
It sounds as if you intend to use the silkscreen layer for the assembly
info? A dangerous practice and extra work. Usually do all this stuff on a
separate mechanical layer. Then go the PDF route.
Joe


- Original Message -
From: Tim Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


 Richard,

 What I do is make a copy of the .ddb file (renaming it appropriately) and
 create the assembly drawing from it. I delete all but the .pcb and print
 preview files.
 Then I auto position all ref des to center (with correct rotation).
 In the print preview I use top and bottom overlays with the mechanical
 outline and title block. I set it up on an 11x17 and create a .pdf file.

 I find this is quite neat and clear when assembling as the ref des are
 inside the component outline.

 Tim


 
 * Tracking #: 524F310DD953EB41BC284D893FB206FADF1F2123
 *
 



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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-08 Thread DUTTON Phil

Hello Richard,

We regularly produce good assembly drawings from Protel.
What we do is as follows;

We have a sheet border on one of the Mechanical layers, and use this layer for all of 
the assembly notes, item balloons etc. Company graphics are just lines and arcs, 
created initially from a .dxf file (in our case from AutoCAD.).
We create a print .ppc file using this layer, the board outline and component overlay.
We print hardcopy direct from this and use a .pdf distiller to create a .pdf version 
that everyone else can view on our network.

We actually have another mechanical layer with a mirror image version of our company 
sheet border to allow printing of a right-reading assembly drawing for the other side 
of the board if required. We use a third mechanical layer to produce the sheet border 
for the master (fab) drawing.

It took a while initially and involved a bit of fine tuning, but once it was all done 
we made that .ddb essentially a template for any new designs.

I hope this is of some help to you.

regards,

Phil Dutton.
Tenix Defence
Adelaide, South Australia.



-Original Message-
From: Richard Stevense [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, 7 September 2002 8:02 AM
To: Protel EDA Users Group
Subject: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...


Hello all,

I am vainly attempting to create assembly drawings for my current project. I
have found two methods for creating these drawings but with unsatisfactory
results.

Method 1: Within Print Preview export the drawing (Top or Bottom
Overlay/Mech 1 on) without Font Substitution and Non-Enhanced WMF. Open a
new blank schematic sheet and place WMF graphic.
Result: Weird looking part designators.

Method 2: Same as Method 1 but use Font Substitution (Verdana looks best in
my opinion).
Result: Beautiful looking part designators but some designators (not all)
are in weird/rotated positions (not in the same places or orientation as
original Print Preview document).

Anybody out there have a better method or found some way around this?

Start of gripe... Also, I find it odd that you can export in Enhanced WMF
from Print Preview but you cannot place this file format in a schematic
sheet. End of gripe...

Thanks in advance,
Richard Stevense
Calgary, Alberta.



* Tracking #: E4A620CE6DF7394E9806222E6D7A0FE51170734C
*


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Re: [PEDA] You can't get there from here (I think)...

2002-09-06 Thread Dennis Saputelli

i assume you want to make electronic dwgs?
how about PDF ?

Dennis Saputelli

Richard Stevense wrote:
 
 Hello all,
 
 I am vainly attempting to create assembly drawings for my current project. I
 have found two methods for creating these drawings but with unsatisfactory
 results.
 
 Method 1: Within Print Preview export the drawing (Top or Bottom
 Overlay/Mech 1 on) without Font Substitution and Non-Enhanced WMF. Open a
 new blank schematic sheet and place WMF graphic.
 Result: Weird looking part designators.
 
 Method 2: Same as Method 1 but use Font Substitution (Verdana looks best in
 my opinion).
 Result: Beautiful looking part designators but some designators (not all)
 are in weird/rotated positions (not in the same places or orientation as
 original Print Preview document).
 
 Anybody out there have a better method or found some way around this?
 
 Start of gripe... Also, I find it odd that you can export in Enhanced WMF
 from Print Preview but you cannot place this file format in a schematic
 sheet. End of gripe...
 
 Thanks in advance,
 Richard Stevense
 Calgary, Alberta.
 



* Tracking #: 26AFE1036A6F8643A9D85A989E28FB26291C2E6E
*

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