Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)

2002-05-06 Thread Igor Gmitrovic

Brad,

What PCAD does is unknown to me, as I have never used it. My understanding
was that Mira wanted to find out how to do things in Protel, and my comments
were written with that in mind. From my point of view, Protel has enough
capabilities to create any assembly drawings and pickplace information one
may want. To create them I am working on a copy of the file, so to prevent
any file corruption. Printpreview is one of the tools I use to create
assembly drawings. Using Printpreview you don't have to flip the board. I
have not had any problems so far by flipping the board around, either.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Igor

-Original Message-
From: Brad Velander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2002 2:13 AM
To: 'Protel EDA Forum'
Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)


Igor,
what Mira  I were discussing is not necessarily the same as you
mentioned. Possibly some of Mira's comments (I am not 100% sure of what
precisely she meant) were the same as yours but what I alluded to was far
beyond Protel's present capabilities.
Within PCAD (and the former Accel EDA) are the DOC Tool functions.
These include all sorts of documentation functions and features. One of
these features allows you to take a snapshot of the PCB or any portion of
the design and place it within the database. You can further change the
layers, scale or flip the view of this snapshot. To document 2-sided
assemblies in Accel I used to take the snapshot of the PCB, place it above
or to the side of the real PCB, flip the view to bottom side view and build
a bottom assy dwg around that view, viewed from the bottom as assembly
people would view it. The view also will update (real-time? or may need a
refresh?) so you do not have to redo the view as you change items on the
real PCB. Simple, complete documentation within your database for bottom
viewed assemblies.

I believe the issue you mentioned of flipping the entire PCB has
some possible drastic problems according to comments I have heard from Ian
or Geoff. I am not qualified to discuss those but I believe that both Ian
and Geoff have warned against doing just that. Further more that approach
just screws up documentation of top side assembly views once flipped so you
still only have half a solution.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 7:45 PM
 To: 'Protel EDA Forum'
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2002 11:03 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)
 
 
 There are some very nice features
 in PCAD2k1. You can flip the component but you can
 flip (mirror) the whole PCB together with the routing.
 
 I have done that in Protel. Enable all used layers and go to
 EditSelectAll. Click on Move, left click on the selection 
 to choose a
 reference point and press X. This will mirror all layers and 
 you can view
 mirrored images by enabling/disabling layers. It won't change 
 layers, i.e.
 top layer objects will not be sent to bottom layer and vice 
 versa. You could
 always use PrintPreview to do the same thing, without compromising the
 integrity of your design.
 
 There is also a Doc tool menu to place a detail view
 of each layer, could be scaled or mirrored. I like the
 idea of integrated library. Cadstar is better than
 PCAD in this manner.
 
 Don't quite understand what you mean by this , but try 
 pressing Up and Down
 keys for scaling.
 
 It would be very good if Altium could implement these
 features in Phoenix. Sooner or later both Protel and
 PCAD will be merged.
 
 Many of the features people are asking about in this forum are already
 covered in the manual. You need time to learn how to use any CAD tool.
 Trying to compare PCAD and Protel or to go and do a 
 production work in new
 SW straight away will not take you far. Cover the basics first.
 
 Regards
 
 Igor
 __
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
 http://health.yahoo.com
 

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-30 Thread Peter Bennett

Mira wrote:
 
  It is important to fix any errors reported by ERC
  before going to the
  PCB (or, at least to know why ERC is complaining,
  and be willing to
  accept the results...)
 
 How can I keep the DRC on? I only see a way to run it
 afterwards.

ERC (Schematic Electrical Rules Check) does not run on-line - you must
manually run it when you want a check.

In PCB Layout, DRC (Design Rules Check) can be run on-line as well as
manually.  The on-line version highlights/un-highlights errors as you
make or correct them, while the manual version highlights errors and
produces a text file listing the errors. (And I think the manual DRC
will catch some errors the on-line version misses)

-- 
Peter Bennett
TRIUMF
4004 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC, Canada  
GPS and NMEA info and programs: 
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)

2002-04-30 Thread Brad Velander

Igor,
what Mira  I were discussing is not necessarily the same as you
mentioned. Possibly some of Mira's comments (I am not 100% sure of what
precisely she meant) were the same as yours but what I alluded to was far
beyond Protel's present capabilities.
Within PCAD (and the former Accel EDA) are the DOC Tool functions.
These include all sorts of documentation functions and features. One of
these features allows you to take a snapshot of the PCB or any portion of
the design and place it within the database. You can further change the
layers, scale or flip the view of this snapshot. To document 2-sided
assemblies in Accel I used to take the snapshot of the PCB, place it above
or to the side of the real PCB, flip the view to bottom side view and build
a bottom assy dwg around that view, viewed from the bottom as assembly
people would view it. The view also will update (real-time? or may need a
refresh?) so you do not have to redo the view as you change items on the
real PCB. Simple, complete documentation within your database for bottom
viewed assemblies.

I believe the issue you mentioned of flipping the entire PCB has
some possible drastic problems according to comments I have heard from Ian
or Geoff. I am not qualified to discuss those but I believe that both Ian
and Geoff have warned against doing just that. Further more that approach
just screws up documentation of top side assembly views once flipped so you
still only have half a solution.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 7:45 PM
 To: 'Protel EDA Forum'
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2002 11:03 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)
 
 
 There are some very nice features
 in PCAD2k1. You can flip the component but you can
 flip (mirror) the whole PCB together with the routing.
 
 I have done that in Protel. Enable all used layers and go to
 EditSelectAll. Click on Move, left click on the selection 
 to choose a
 reference point and press X. This will mirror all layers and 
 you can view
 mirrored images by enabling/disabling layers. It won't change 
 layers, i.e.
 top layer objects will not be sent to bottom layer and vice 
 versa. You could
 always use PrintPreview to do the same thing, without compromising the
 integrity of your design.
 
 There is also a Doc tool menu to place a detail view
 of each layer, could be scaled or mirrored. I like the
 idea of integrated library. Cadstar is better than
 PCAD in this manner.
 
 Don't quite understand what you mean by this , but try 
 pressing Up and Down
 keys for scaling.
 
 It would be very good if Altium could implement these
 features in Phoenix. Sooner or later both Protel and
 PCAD will be merged.
 
 Many of the features people are asking about in this forum are already
 covered in the manual. You need time to learn how to use any CAD tool.
 Trying to compare PCAD and Protel or to go and do a 
 production work in new
 SW straight away will not take you far. Cover the basics first.
 
 Regards
 
 Igor
 __
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
 http://health.yahoo.com
 

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Peter Bennett

Mira wrote:
 
 Thanks for the remark, Peter.
 
 I used wires and placed net labels. It's amazing
 that I'm allowed to place parts with one and the same
 ref. designators.
 OK. I placed a net label on the wire that had GND
 power port connected expecting the name of the label
 to change to GND but it didn't.

The power ports act something like net labels (but not _exactly_ like
net labels - the power nets are always Global, while those created by
net labels may be local to a single sheet, depending on how the netlist
is generated.)
 
 The ERC caught both the duplicated net labels and the
 duplicated parts. But when I updated the PCB the
 duplicated net labels were not reported as a problem.
 On the PCB I got this pin (with duplicated net)
 connected to the name of the label (not to GND).
 When I move the net label aside, the pin is connected
 to GND.
 So far so good. Lets think this is a feature.

It is important to fix any errors reported by ERC before going to the
PCB (or, at least to know why ERC is complaining, and be willing to
accept the results...)

 
 I decided to check what will happen if I place a net
 label on top of two wires, which are crossing each
 other but not connected. They didn't have any other
 labels placed. ERC didn't catch it and the update PCB
 didn't complain either. It just shorted those two
 wires while on the schematic they are visibly not
 connected.
 Is this another feature? How may I prevent designers
 for shorting nets this way?

I'd be more likely to call it a bug (although it is really an undesired
byproduct of a feature).  A net label applies to any wire which touches
its bottom left corner, so you can put a horizontal label on a vertical
wire - but this feature can lead to the problem you describe.

 Is there any way to prevent Protel from placing
 duplicated ref. designators?

I initially place parts leaving the designator as R?, C?, U?, etc., 
then use Tools/Annotate to automagically assign numbers to all ?
parts.  For parts that you want a specific designator, you can set those
as required, and the Annotate function will only affect those parts that
still show a ?.

Later, when I have the board finished, I usually reannotate the PC
board, then back-annotate the schematic to match.



-- 
Peter Bennett
TRIUMF
4004 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC, Canada  
GPS and NMEA info and programs: 
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Brad Velander

Mira,
I am not sure which systems you may have used prior to Protel but of
the systems that I have used the reactions that you report below are the
norm.

Putting a net label with the same name on two wires, connects the
wires exactly the same as if you drew a wire between them. Same with most
every CAD system going. Placing the net label on two unconnected wires tells
the netlist facility that you wanted those two wires connected together. How
is it to know otherwise or better, ESP? Does it ask you if you actually
wanted each and every wire between two connection points or not because one
of the wires may be misplaced for the circuit to function correctly?

Putting your net label on the GND connection changed the net name
for the pin to the net named in the label. I would be pretty sure that all
of your GND nets were renamed by placing the net label on the GND net. It
also sounds as if you only checked the one pin! I am not sure but I would
bet that a net label has a higher priority over a power symbol net
assignment. If the net label had not changed the net name to the net label
name, how would you ever put a required netlabel on a net if the net label
name kept changing to some other already pre-assigned net name?

Putting multiple net labels on a net, will result in one of the nets
being the one actually assigned in the netlist. Which one is the one used in
the netlist is based somehow on the physical locations of the net labels
within the schematic sheets, i.e. first one the netlister comes across or
possibly the last one it comes across as it is trying to compile the
netlist.

Multiple parts with same designators, this is why there is a special
check within the ERC simply to check for this occurrence. ERC, ERC, ERC,
learn it, use it , live it. It will save your butt almost every time you use
it. Remember that when you first brought in all those parts they had the
same R? reference designators. As well, using the annotation tools within
Protel is probably the easiest manner to update designators without
duplication errors. The only manner by which you should have duplicated
designators is through human intervention causing human errors.

How do you stop designers from make errors like connecting two
unconnected nets with a misplaced netlabel? Extensive ERC, reviews and
procedural checks in your process. This is equivalent to how do you stop
somebody from putting the wrong component into the PCB, checks and measures!
There is no fool-proof method, fools are too numerous and they are
everywhere, give them enough time they will find a way to beat your best
planned processes and procedures. I have even been known to have beat my own
best processes.

Mira, this all 'sounds' like you are very new to EDA CAD tools, but
yet you seem to be trying to define the future path and processes for
others. Shouldn't this task of defining processes, procedures and how to
utilize the tools, be performed by the most experienced of those who will
actually will do the work? I believe that if I was CAD designer working in
your company right now, I would be dusting and polishing my resume.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 10:50 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes
 
 
 Thanks for the remark, Peter.
 
 I used wires and placed net labels. It's amazing
 that I'm allowed to place parts with one and the same
 ref. designators.
 OK. I placed a net label on the wire that had GND
 power port connected expecting the name of the label
 to change to GND but it didn't.
 
 The ERC caught both the duplicated net labels and the
 duplicated parts. But when I updated the PCB the
 duplicated net labels were not reported as a problem.
 On the PCB I got this pin (with duplicated net)
 connected to the name of the label (not to GND).
 When I move the net label aside, the pin is connected
 to GND.
 So far so good. Lets think this is a feature. 
 
 I decided to check what will happen if I place a net
 label on top of two wires, which are crossing each
 other but not connected. They didn't have any other
 labels placed. ERC didn't catch it and the update PCB
 didn't complain either. It just shorted those two
 wires while on the schematic they are visibly not
 connected. 
 Is this another feature? How may I prevent designers
 for shorting nets this way?
 Is there any way to prevent Protel from placing
 duplicated ref. designators?
 
 Thanks,
 Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Yuriy Khapochkin


Mira wrote:
 
 Thanks for the remark, Peter.
 
 I used wires and placed net labels. It's amazing
 that I'm allowed to place parts with one and the same
 ref. designators.

That's feature, though annoying one.

 OK. I placed a net label on the wire that had GND
 power port connected expecting the name of the label
 to change to GND but it didn't.

Not in the Protel, sorry.
 
 I decided to check what will happen if I place a net
 label on top of two wires, which are crossing each
 other but not connected. They didn't have any other
 labels placed. ERC didn't catch it and the update PCB
 didn't complain either. It just shorted those two
 wires while on the schematic they are visibly not
 connected.
 Is this another feature? How may I prevent designers
 for shorting nets this way?

By not allowing them to place label in such a way.

 Is there any way to prevent Protel from placing
 duplicated ref. designators?

I couldn't find one and treated it as a feature.

WBR,
Yuriy.

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Yuriy Khapochkin

Hi Brad,

I couldn't agree with you on most points.

Brad Velander wrote:
 
 Mira,
 I am not sure which systems you may have used prior to Protel but of
 the systems that I have used the reactions that you report below are the
 norm.

I have used PCAD2001 for quite some time and could tell that there are 
no features Mira reported for the Protel.
 
 Putting a net label with the same name on two wires, connects the
 wires exactly the same as if you drew a wire between them. 
Interesting question, didn't check this in PCAD. I need to try.

 Putting your net label on the GND connection changed the net name
 for the pin to the net named in the label. I would be pretty sure that all
 of your GND nets were renamed by placing the net label on the GND net. It
 also sounds as if you only checked the one pin! I am not sure but I would
 bet that a net label has a higher priority over a power symbol net
 assignment. If the net label had not changed the net name to the net label
 name, how would you ever put a required netlabel on a net if the net label
 name kept changing to some other already pre-assigned net name?

But that's crazy! If I put Net label over the existing net it's worth to assign
net name to the label, not vice versa.
Just because Net Label is only a descripition of the Net.
 
 Putting multiple net labels on a net, will result in one of the nets
 being the one actually assigned in the netlist. Which one is the one used in
 the netlist is based somehow on the physical locations of the net labels
 within the schematic sheets, i.e. first one the netlister comes across or
 possibly the last one it comes across as it is trying to compile the
 netlist.

Again, try PCAD2001. It's imposible to place different Net Label on the same
Net.
If you try, Net will be splitted into subnets and you'll get warning message.

 Multiple parts with same designators, this is why there is a special
 check within the ERC simply to check for this occurrence. ERC, ERC, ERC,
 learn it, use it , live it. It will save your butt almost every time you use
 it. Remember that when you first brought in all those parts they had the
 same R? reference designators. As well, using the annotation tools within
 Protel is probably the easiest manner to update designators without
 duplication errors. The only manner by which you should have duplicated
 designators is through human intervention causing human errors.

Again, try PCAD2001. It simply will not allow you to have two components 
with the same designators and will automatically assign new available designator
for each new part placed.

 Mira, this all 'sounds' like you are very new to EDA CAD tools, but
 yet you seem to be trying to define the future path and processes for
 others. 

Brad, I'm not very new in EDA CAD :-), but I have approximately the same 
set of questions as Mira to the Protel development team.
So I just hold my breath and think about them, as of features I have to live
with
and try to find some kind of workarounds if possible

WBR,
Yuriy Khapochkin.

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Mira

Brad,
Thank you for your polite reply.
You may start polishing my resume, too.
I'm experienced PCAD MD user. You can only dream of
what I can do with this package. :o)
But my colleagues think that it's time to make a move
and some of them prefer Protel although they never
worked with it. Some other think it's safe and
easier to draw schematics in Protel. With my first
steps in Protel, I may say it's a nice drawing but
only a drawing.
PCAD gives names to each wire I draw. I may change it
any time even when I start drawing it. It places
junction when I stop/start on top of another wire and
asks me if I'd like to connect them. It could
disconnect them if I delete a segment and asks me how
to rename them. I may choose to keep them connected.
I just checked the same with PCAD2001. It also gives
names to the wires and places junctions automatically.
It changes the net names if I delete one of the
segments. The only difference is that I have to go to
wire properties to change the net name and I cannot
type it when I start drawing it. 

Regarding duplicated refdes PCAD does not allow me to
place the same part refdes if there is already one
placed although I type it manually (as in Protel). The
only way to have duplicated names on the components is
to copy another schematic and choose to keep the same
refdes.
PCAD2001 places the refdes automatically. If you have
R1 and R3, next time when you place R it will name it
R2... then R4 and so on.
I didn't want especially to duplicate part names. I
just placed one and then I saw there was another one
with the same name but this makes me wonder what will
happen If I have multiple pages and the same component
names. To be checked!

This was just to give you an idea of what I was
expecting to see. There is no need all EDA packages to
be the same. I only want to know what might be done in
Protel and I thank you for your time and patience to
explain it.

Now about the net label placed on top of two wires...
I saw that the net label has kind of a ref. point.
Obviously when this point touches the wire it assigns
this name to the wire. It seemed to me but now I'm
sure this ref. point acts as a junction if placed on
top of two wires, which are crossed but not really
connected.

   |netlabel3
---o---
   |

If you place the net label at the point where o is,
you'll get them connected no matter that there is no
junction at all. Do you understand me? 
There is no indication to which wire this label
belongs to. Wire itself does not show anything either.
I can pay attention on this but I may not avoid
mistakes of that kind.

Mira



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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Brad Velander

Yuriy,
with all respect, you are comparing two vastly differing systems and
not the validity of the comments that I made. I used Accel EDA for a few
years so I have seen some of the issues that you speak of.

Like trying to manually swap designators on a couple of schematic
symbols, going through differing intermediate designators and several extra
steps to accomplish such a simple task as swapping designators R13  R14.
Crazy, talk about crazy! Probably, well actually for damn sure, it doesn't
understand my design intent and therefore why should it second guess me on
designators?

Placing the net label, in Protel there is no pre-assigned net name
unless it is a power symbol connected net or it has a previously assigned
net label netname. So what would normally be assigned when you connect the
net label? Blank? And how would you then change it? Is it a net label or a
net leech?

Using multiple net labels on a single net. Since the dawn of EDA time the
grandfather of EDA schematic entry, OrCAD, has/had allowed for entry of
multiple net names on a single net. This pre-dates any other tool that still
exist out there.

What is this the invasion of the PCAD gang? You know what, we are here to
help if you need help. We would appreciate it if you could read the manuals
first and try the tutorials. If you want to fight about the symantics of the
tool operation call Protel. We all know where that will get you, very
frustrated because they really couldn't care.

This is so funny, me a Protel mouth piece! What is this world coming
to? I just can't stop snickering at the thought.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Yuriy Khapochkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:03 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes
 
 
 Hi Brad,
 
 I couldn't agree with you on most points.
 
 Brad Velander wrote:
  
  Mira,
  I am not sure which systems you may have used prior 
 to Protel but of
  the systems that I have used the reactions that you report 
 below are the
  norm.
 
 I have used PCAD2001 for quite some time and could tell that 
 there are 
 no features Mira reported for the Protel.
  
 
 But that's crazy! If I put Net label over the existing net 
 it's worth to assign
 net name to the label, not vice versa.
 Just because Net Label is only a descripition of the Net.
  
 
 Again, try PCAD2001. It's imposible to place different Net 
 Label on the same
 Net.
 If you try, Net will be splitted into subnets and you'll get 
 warning message.
 
  Multiple parts with same designators, this is why 
 there is a special
  check within the ERC simply to check for this occurrence. 
 ERC, ERC, ERC,
  learn it, use it , live it. It will save your butt almost 
 every time you use
  it. Remember that when you first brought in all those parts 
 they had the
  same R? reference designators. As well, using the 
 annotation tools within
  Protel is probably the easiest manner to update designators without
  duplication errors. The only manner by which you should 
 have duplicated
  designators is through human intervention causing human errors.
 
 Again, try PCAD2001. It simply will not allow you to have two 
 components 
 with the same designators and will automatically assign new 
 available designator
 for each new part placed.
 
 Brad, I'm not very new in EDA CAD :-), but I have 
 approximately the same 
 set of questions as Mira to the Protel development team.
 So I just hold my breath and think about them, as of 
 features I have to live
 with
 and try to find some kind of workarounds if possible
 
 WBR,
 Yuriy Khapochkin.

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Mira

Peter,

 The power ports act something like net labels (but
 not _exactly_ like
 net labels - the power nets are always Global, while
 those created by
 net labels may be local to a single sheet, depending
 on how the netlist
 is generated.)

This was good to know. However it changed the global
net into a local one and I think only on one GND pin.
I have to check it again.

 It is important to fix any errors reported by ERC
 before going to the
 PCB (or, at least to know why ERC is complaining,
 and be willing to
 accept the results...)

How can I keep the DRC on? I only see a way to run it
afterwards.

 A net label applies to any
 wire which touches
 its bottom left corner, so you can put a horizontal
 label on a vertical
 wire - but this feature can lead to the problem you
 describe.

Yes, I fount it out.

 I initially place parts leaving the designator as
 R?, C?, U?, etc., 
 then use Tools/Annotate to automagically assign
 numbers to all ?
 parts.  For parts that you want a specific
 designator, you can set those
 as required, and the Annotate function will only
 affect those parts that
 still show a ?.

This is a good idea. It's interesting if I have C1, C?
and C10 what it will place - C2 or C11. I have to try
this.

Thank you so much, Peter.
Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Tony Karavidas

Yes, I think your point is clear, but we obviously get along quite well
without making this mistake.

Even if they were not connected by the inclusion of the net name, the name
placed in that location is unclear as to which wire it references.


Tony



 Now about the net label placed on top of two wires...
 I saw that the net label has kind of a ref. point.
 Obviously when this point touches the wire it assigns
 this name to the wire. It seemed to me but now I'm
 sure this ref. point acts as a junction if placed on
 top of two wires, which are crossed but not really
 connected.

|netlabel3
 ---o---
|

 If you place the net label at the point where o is,
 you'll get them connected no matter that there is no
 junction at all. Do you understand me?
 There is no indication to which wire this label
 belongs to. Wire itself does not show anything either.
 I can pay attention on this but I may not avoid
 mistakes of that kind.

 Mira



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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Brad Velander

Mira,
OK! This explains a bit more, been there done that a number of times
in the last ten years. I can understand where you are coming from now and I
sympathize. My best advice, look for functionality and not duplication of
what you were used to. Also keep an eye out for solutions to issues that
your other package was stymied on.  It is 'less' painful that way, not
completely painless though.

Some of the features you mention with PCAD net connectivity are very
nice. I have seen some of them via Accel EDA a few years ago, V13/14/15.
Protel is different and definitely a little more wide open and less
restrictive. The work around is to properly configure and utilize the ERC
checks.

As for your net label connection to two wires, sorry my
misunderstanding. I now see your point and yes it is not the most desired
operation. It is similar to running a wire perpendicular to the ends of
symbol pins, you just don't do it unless you want all the pins to connect to
the wire. For your reference this function is also present in OrCAD, or at
least it used to be for about a decade or more.

As for the duplicate designators, yes I can remember many times
cursing the Accel EDA insistence on no duplicate designators when I was just
trying to swap a couple of designators around. Not a pretty picture. I got
used to changing designators to R999, R998, R997, R996, R995, etc., then
changing them to the actual values that I had wanted in the first place.

I believe from what you have described there is a basic difference
in philosophy at work here. Seems PCAD's thoughts are to tie down the system
so that the designer can't make a mistake. With Protel we use the ERC check
to check that we didn't make a mistake when we are finished doing what we
wanted to do. I don't think that in most circumstances there would be much
difference in efficiency between to two philosophies. When you were trying
to do something a little off base or different then Protel is probably far
more efficient without the encumbrances at each and every step.

Here's a heads up before you hit the wall on a very weak item in
Protel. Protel does not have any support for double sided assembly drawings
other than using the silkscreen. Yes, we have all cried the blues about this
one, maybe in the Phoenix release. I had even suggested the Accel view
window as a nice feature for mirroring bottom assembly drawings. There is
also word of integrated libraries with Phoenix, I only hope it is better
then Accel EDA had implemented a few years ago. What a pain to generate
fully functional symbols and land patterns. All while viewing little tiny
windows with a bunch of columns/fields stuffed around them.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:43 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes
 
 
SNIP
 
 Now about the net label placed on top of two wires...
 I saw that the net label has kind of a ref. point.
 Obviously when this point touches the wire it assigns
 this name to the wire. It seemed to me but now I'm
 sure this ref. point acts as a junction if placed on
 top of two wires, which are crossed but not really
 connected.
 
|netlabel3
 ---o---
|
 
 If you place the net label at the point where o is,
 you'll get them connected no matter that there is no
 junction at all. Do you understand me? 
 There is no indication to which wire this label
 belongs to. Wire itself does not show anything either.
 I can pay attention on this but I may not avoid
 mistakes of that kind.
 
 Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Brad Velander

Mira,
just in case you haven't found the answer to your question below,
the answer is C2! It will re-use vacant designators first, unlike some other
systems which just keep running up those designator numbers.
I don't remember how Accel handled that instance, I believe that it
just kept running up through the designators if I remember right. Seems to
me that is why I wanted to change designators manually so many times and
would get a couple mixed up and then go through the renaming round-about to
get them right.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:54 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes
 
 
 
 This is a good idea. It's interesting if I have C1, C?
 and C10 what it will place - C2 or C11. I have to try
 this.
 
 Thank you so much, Peter.
 Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Ian Wilson

On 03:43 PM 29/04/2002 -0700, Mira said:
Brad,
Thank you for your polite reply.

Nicely put. Brad - are you being harsh?  There are legitimate userbility 
issue in Protel that are well worth discussing even though many of us 
experienced users are so familiar with them that we may loose sight of 
other ways of doing things.

I for one would quite like the net to be an attribute of a sch wire (to 
facilitate some global operations across sheets on wires).  But it does 
rather break some aspects of Protels current manner-of-use and so would 
need really careful thought.

..snip..
PCAD2001 places the refdes automatically. If you have
R1 and R3, next time when you place R it will name it
R2... then R4 and so on.

Protel will step net lablels, pin numbers and ref des numbers when there is 
a numeral last in the relevant text.  It will not fill in unused windows.

So if you have placed a resistor R3, then the next one will be R4.  When 
placing items you can hit the TAB key to bring up the properties for that 
object.  You can then set the ref des as you wish, continuing to place more 
of the same component type will step on the ref des numerals.  This 
auto-assisted ref des incrementing suits me as I sometimes like to group 
ref des by circuit block, leaving gaps to allow for additional components 
as the design matures.

Does PCAD force re-use of ref des windows? This is something I would not 
like.  When we remove a component we try hard not to re-use that ref des to 
reduce the chance of production errors. We also like to group ref des by 
function often.

I didn't want especially to duplicate part names. I
just placed one and then I saw there was another one
with the same name but this makes me wonder what will
happen If I have multiple pages and the same component
names. To be checked!

ERC can trap duplicate ref designators.  And many other errors - it is well 
worthwhile making *full* use of ERC including taking the time to set up the 
electrical type of the pins in schematic libraries to facilitate the best 
possible ERC.

..snip..
Now about the net label placed on top of two wires...
I saw that the net label has kind of a ref. point.
Obviously when this point touches the wire it assigns
this name to the wire. It seemed to me but now I'm
sure this ref. point acts as a junction if placed on
top of two wires, which are crossed but not really
connected.

|netlabel3
---o---
|

You are correct and this is a limitation of Protels net labelling 
scheme.  You can ameliorate this situation by naming explicitly (with a net 
label) as many nets as practical and then ERC is more likely to pick up the 
duplicate net labels.  Placing net labels in consistent locations to reduce 
the chance of a long wire running across a sch causing a stray net label 
connection is helpful.  A visual check for unclear net label placement is 
important - but a clear, good looking, sch will have this anyway.

A related issue that Protel should have fixed a long time ago is the 
joining of co-linear wires.  Wires in Protel remain as placed.  If you 
place a small section of wire and then at some time later come back and 
extend that by placing another wire (rather than stretching the existing 
wire), the join between these two in-line sections remains - the wires are 
not merged.  This join is now an auto-junction hot spot.  So if someone 
runs a track across this hotspot a junction dot will be added (assuming 
auto-junction is enabled - see more on this below), so creating a possibly 
incorrect circuit.  This is a bigger failing in Protel than the placement 
of the net label in my opinion.

A note on auto-junction: The auto-junction is a system, not document, level 
attribute (Tools-Preferences).  This means the attribute does *not* travel 
with the schematic.  So leaving stray auto-junction hotspots around a sch 
may be OK for some (if Auto-junction is off), but if that sch is given to 
someone else then a number of operations can cause the junction to be 
auto-magically placed, possibly in an area a long way from where one is 
working, and so easily missed.

It is very disappointing to me that this issue remains in Protel years 
after it being made clear to Protel/Altium that is was a problem.  Merging 
co-linear wire segments is not hard and many low end sch packages have it.

Mira,  it has been years since I used another ECAD package in anger so I am 
not a good judge.  However, there are many that successfully use Protel for 
high-end high quality work, so it can be done.  Which package is best - 
sort of like asking which religion is best, or which OS is best.

Good luck,
Ian Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes

2002-04-29 Thread Ian Wilson

On 04:25 PM 29/04/2002 -0700, Brad Velander said:
Mira,
 just in case you haven't found the answer to your question below,
the answer is C2! It will re-use vacant designators first, unlike some other
systems which just keep running up those designator numbers.

It will re-use gaps when you use the annotate tool.  But if you are relying 
on the auto-increment when placing symbols (after seeding the first by 
hitting TAB and setting a desired starting ref des) it will simply count 
up.  It is not very clever as it will count over existing ref designators - 
so making duplicates.

In Protel there are tools to assist but there is no forced restriction 
against duplicate ref designators - good or bad? Depends on how you operate 
I s'pose.

Ian Wilson


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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)

2002-04-29 Thread Mira

Ian,
It's a pleasure to read your emails.

 Does PCAD force re-use of ref des windows? 
PCAD2k1 gives you full control over the placed parts.
You see the refdes before it's placed and you can roll
up/down till you get the number you want. You have
also tips when you hold the mouse over any object.
I don't like the renumber utility much.

snip
 wire), the join between these two in-line sections
 remains - the wires are 
 not merged.  This join is now an auto-junction hot
 spot.  So if someone 
 runs a track across this hotspot a junction dot will
 be added (assuming 
 auto-junction is enabled - see more on this below),
 so creating a possibly 
 incorrect circuit.  This is a bigger failing in
 Protel than the placement 
 of the net label in my opinion.

I would never suspect this. Thanks.

 It is very disappointing to me that this issue
 remains in Protel years 
 after it being made clear to Protel/Altium that is
 was a problem.  Merging 
 co-linear wire segments is not hard and many low end
 sch packages have it.

I'm sure they'll fix it... if they want Protel to
become a product line of Mentor.

 
 Mira,  it has been years since I used another ECAD
 package in anger so I am 
 not a good judge.  However, there are many that
 successfully use Protel for 
 high-end high quality work, so it can be done. 
 Which package is best - 
 sort of like asking which religion is best, or which
 OS is best.

You do it quite well, Ian. I know that everything is
possible. If I can do many complex designs in PCAD,
what could stop me to try them here? 
I'm fast learning and very grateful person.

Now it's time to leave you. 

Thanks to all who replied to my questions.

Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)

2002-04-29 Thread Mira


Brad,

Thank you so much.
You are my walking tutorial but if I stay a bit more
here, we'll have to think about having a breakfast.

 I had even
 suggested the Accel view
 window as a nice feature for mirroring bottom
 assembly drawings. There is
 also word of integrated libraries with Phoenix, I
 only hope it is better
 then Accel EDA had implemented a few years ago. What
 a pain to generate
 fully functional symbols and land patterns. All
 while viewing little tiny
 windows with a bunch of columns/fields stuffed
 around them.

You are right, Brad. There are some very nice features
in PCAD2k1. You can flip the component but you can
flip (mirror) the whole PCB together with the routing.

There is also a Doc tool menu to place a detail view
of each layer, could be scaled or mirrored. I like the
idea of integrated library. Cadstar is better than
PCAD in this manner.
It would be very good if Altium could implement these
features in Phoenix. Sooner or later both Protel and
PCAD will be merged.

OK. Good night.
See you tomorrow.

Mira

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Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)

2002-04-29 Thread Igor Gmitrovic



-Original Message-
From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, 30 April 2002 11:03 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] duplicated net labels and refdes (THANKS)


There are some very nice features
in PCAD2k1. You can flip the component but you can
flip (mirror) the whole PCB together with the routing.

I have done that in Protel. Enable all used layers and go to
EditSelectAll. Click on Move, left click on the selection to choose a
reference point and press X. This will mirror all layers and you can view
mirrored images by enabling/disabling layers. It won't change layers, i.e.
top layer objects will not be sent to bottom layer and vice versa. You could
always use PrintPreview to do the same thing, without compromising the
integrity of your design.

There is also a Doc tool menu to place a detail view
of each layer, could be scaled or mirrored. I like the
idea of integrated library. Cadstar is better than
PCAD in this manner.

Don't quite understand what you mean by this , but try pressing Up and Down
keys for scaling.

It would be very good if Altium could implement these
features in Phoenix. Sooner or later both Protel and
PCAD will be merged.

Many of the features people are asking about in this forum are already
covered in the manual. You need time to learn how to use any CAD tool.
Trying to compare PCAD and Protel or to go and do a production work in new
SW straight away will not take you far. Cover the basics first.

Regards

Igor
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