Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-06 Thread Igor Gmitrovic

Mira,

find my comments bellow.

-Original Message-
From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2002 8:46 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)


Igor,
We are talking about two different things or at least
both Protel and PCAD do this differently.
I tried the way you proposed but couldn't get it
working. However there was an option to flip the
selection that made me think it could be done but it
didn't actually flip the board. It just mirrored the
layers themselves. I mean top overlay stays still top
overlay but mirrored and everything is somehow frozen.

Correct, it is written in my message to you, as well. I use that to create
pickplace files for the bottom. There are other ways to do the same, but
this one seems to be the fastest to me. Use the Printpreview to look at the
board from upside down or to create assembly drawings of any layer
combination in any orientation with any information on them you want.

On a flipped board turn off unwanted layers to look at the bottom layer. You
will see it as the assembly people would have seen it. If you want to work
on your design after flipped, you would still know which layer is top and
which one is bottom as the layer colours are preserved.

The meaning in Pcad is that you get all layers
swapped. Top goes to bottom, silk top - to silk
bottom. So it's like looking at the PCB from the
bottom side (or routing as the bottom side it your top
side).
Design views of your top and bottom overlay (silk)
next to your PCB design help you to locate easily the
components. When you flip the PCB and refresh you'll
see the views changed, too. Highliting a component
also highlights in in the view. Select another one and
it appears selected on the view.

PCAD costs more as well.

I've got another question.
When moving the selection I placed it close to the
lower left corner... but some of the components are
now out of the working space. I looked to me it was
possible to place them there and Protel didn't
complain. It was deselected and saved in the mean
time.

How may I select again the PCB only? There are many
other things than I don't want to move.

Try SelectAll and then move all together. When everything is inside the
drawing space try deselecting layers or EditDeselectInside/Outside Area to
deselect objects you don't want to move further. You might want to
experiment with selection options until you get the right combination of
selection.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Igor


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Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-06 Thread Abd ulRahman Lomax

At 10:06 AM 5/4/2002 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
On 01:03 PM 2/05/2002 -0400, Abd ulRahman Lomax said:
..snip..
I do understand that the Protel training, with Mr. Wilson, is quite good

Not me - I do not do any Protel training.  Maybe some other Mr Wilson :-)
Ian Wilson

Yes, Rick Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-03 Thread Abd ulRahman Lomax

At 03:00 PM 5/1/2002 -0700, Mira wrote:
Does anybody know how expensive Phoenix will be?

I'm not sure that Altium even knows for sure. But they have announced that 
pricing will be in line with current pricing, i.e., $7995 for 99SE full 
regular price. There are often sales and specials for multiple licenses, etc.

They are also indicating that upgrade from 99SE licenses older than a 
certain date (1 October 2001?) will be $1995. Since that is also the 
current upgrade price from Protel 98, they will have, if they keep to what 
they have indicated, devalued P99SE licenses bought before the cutoff date. 
This has not been past practice, except that really old licenses tended to 
be the same upgrade price to be come current, i.e., the upgrade from 
Autotrax to P98 was the same as the upgrade from version 2, and the upgrade 
from version 3 or before is now $3995, twice that of what it is for P98.

There is normally a resale market for Protel licenses, but the pricing 
uncertainties and structure have certainly thrown that market into 
disarray; it becomes very difficult to determine the value of a license 
much more than today it is worth

  I have a PCB, which reports 5 polygons
although I see only 4 on the PCB. One of them is
empty and can't locate it.
When I select all and try to move it, it says there
are locked primitives and one of the polygons doesn't
want to be moved.
How to find out which primitives are locked? How to
locate the empty polygon?

My, my, you *are* exercising the program, to run into so many Protel quirks 
so quickly. Empty polygons are created when one sets the polygon to remove 
dead copper, and there is no net seed within the polygon. So all poured 
primitives are removed, and the polygon becomes a tad difficult to find.

It is possible to find polygons and their tracks using Edit/Export to 
Spreadsheet, and to edit the remove dead copper parameter in the 
Spreadsheet, updating the PCB. This is a bit of a tricky process; and 
changing the attribute will not cause, I think, the polygon to repour. But 
selecting all, cutting it, and pasting it back will cause Protel to query 
whether or not you want to repour.

I think there is a better and easier way, but I forget what it is. This is 
not exactly something should need to be done frequently

  Generally, however,
  once one understands how to accomplish a thing in
  Protel, it does make
  sense, it is relatively easy to remember.

Probably... after you remember all sets of buttons to
press.

No, the point is that *most* important commands are fairly easy to 
remember, and quick to use. I did *not* find this to be true with OrCAD 
Layout, which was designed to force the user to do things the OrCAD Way, 
which was *often* quite convoluted. There were plenty of things that I 
could do in seconds in Tango which took me hours in Layout, mostly to 
figure out how to do it, and when I did find the way, it was complex and 
not fast, and it was, from my point of view at least, highly arbitrary. 
Next day, when I needed to do the same thing, I could not remember it. If I 
did not keep notes, it was back to research mode maybe it was faster to 
find the info the second time around.

But not much. And, as I said, the process would often turn out to be much 
more complex than what I expected. More specifics on this below.

I met Orcad on a crossroad several times. PCAD was/is
my love from the first sight.

Love is like that. However, had you met Protel first, I find it less likely 
that you would have become so infatuated. Certainly, however, this is open 
to discussion

Many Protel users simply could not have afforded Accel PCAD; when what has 
become the unified package was about $20K, Protel was selling on special 
for about $4K. I got in for $2K because a friend had a spare Autotrax 
license. Since Autotrax sold for less than $1K, as I recall, Protel was 
really cheap for such a flexible and powerful system. I paid another $700 
to upgrade to 99SE.

You couldn't even buy the severely limited Windows versions of Accel Tango 
for that

So I am not at all surprised to find that PCAD has features which are 
lacking in Protel. It ought to!

[I wrote about Loop Removal.]

This reminds me about one of the first versions of
Orcad. I had several nets routed but there was no
space for one more and I couldn't find a way to move
the segments. I decided to delete it but for Orcad
this meant remove the net from the netlist. So, I
had to load it again. The right way was to re-route it
from the beginning to the end and then the old one was
removed automatically. I hope this is not the case
here.

Only if Loop Removal is enabled. The problem with OrCAD, as I recall, was 
that it was either impossible or less than obvious how to turn off loop 
removal. In Protel it is a selection field on the Preferences screen.

It was also quite difficult, I found, to guide the routing in Layout. The 
cursor would float and the track would go to what 

Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-03 Thread Ian Wilson

On 01:03 PM 2/05/2002 -0400, Abd ulRahman Lomax said:
..snip..
I do understand that the Protel training, with Mr. Wilson, is quite good

Not me - I do not do any Protel training.  Maybe some other Mr Wilson :-)
Ian Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-02 Thread Brad Velander

Mira,
here are some answers to your queries.

Phoenix (DXP) is rumored (unofficially from Protel staffers) to be $1995USD
upgrade cost from 99SE. This will then include one year of ATS support from
the upgrade date, which coincidently is also $1995USD per year.

Locked items. Locked anything will be moved during a Select All move,
the protection only raises the warning message. Answer affirmatively and the
locked items will move anyway. There is no absolute protection for locked
items, it is actually not even protection just a warning.

Invisible Polygons. When moving polygons that were previously invisible
always try an affirmative response to the repour polygons query at the end
of the move. Sometimes the best solution to finding them is a Select
All, move the items and then drop them back at their starting location,
answer yes to the repour enquiry. They may become visible when repoured. If
they were set to clear unconnected polygon segments and they are all
unconnected you have a slightly bigger problem. In this case I have
previously exported the PCB as ASCII, found the polygon statements for the
appropriate layer(s) and manually changed the status for unconnected
islands. Then I import it back to the database, try the move and replace in
the same location and answer affirmative to the repour query, they should
now show up. There may be another method somebody has developed but I don't
recall any. Sorry for my lack of correct descriptors in this explanation, I
have tried to get as close as I can but at the moment I can't even check the
correct descriptors, Protel crashed yesterday along with some W2K functions,
I have a bit of clean-up and re-install left before I can even check the
correct terminology for the specifics.
Protel crashes, this is the first re-install that I have had to do
in about 9 - 12 months. So contrary to some rumors, with the correct OS and
reasonable hardware, Protel does not crash that often. I actually think that
my crash was W2K initiated because there was extensive damage to my W2K
install and it took out some Protel functions because it was open at the
time of the crash (it screwed some of my INI files and the license manager).


Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
Microwave Products
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com

Visit us at Booth 2G2-09 at CommunicAsia 2002 in Singapore June 18-21.


 -Original Message-
 From: Mira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 3:01 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)
 
 
 Hi,
  
 
 Does anybody know how expensive Phoenix will be?
 
 
 It should be. I have a PCB, which reports 5 polygons
 although I see only 4 on the PCB. One of them is
 empty and can't locate it.
 When I select all and try to move it, it says there
 are locked primitives and one of the polygons doesn't
 want to be moved. 
 How to find out which primitives are locked? How to
 locate the empty polygon?
 
 
 Probably... after you remember all sets of buttons to
 press.
 
 Thanks for the help.
 Mira

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Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-01 Thread Abd ulRahman Lomax

At 03:45 PM 4/30/2002 -0700, Mira wrote:
The meaning in Pcad is that you get all layers
swapped. Top goes to bottom, silk top - to silk
bottom. So it's like looking at the PCB from the
bottom side (or routing as the bottom side it your top
side).

There are three possible aspects to mirroring and flipping.

Mirroring would not flip the board, it would not convert top to bottom, 
etc. Mirroring is useful in generating checkprints of the bottom layer(s), 
particularly the legend; it can also be used, in gerber photoplot, to 
generate bottom views that can be reimported.

Flipping could mean flipping in view only or flipping in actuality. 
View-only flipping would merely mirror the display. It should be relatively 
easy for Protel to implement this, but they have not. View-only 
flipping is really the same thing as plot mirroring, except it is with the 
display instead of with print or plot output.

Actual flipping is a tad complex; Mr. Wilson, as I recall working with Mr. 
Harland, wrote a board inversion server. Full board inversion (we called 
this deep inversion) would truly reproduce the database as if the board 
had been completely flipped. Note that this involves changing inner layer 
assignments, it is not merely a matter of mirroring all layers and swapping 
the top and bottom layer assignments of primitives.

Deep inversion would primarily be useful with design re-use, I won't go 
into details.

Design views of your top and bottom overlay (silk)
next to your PCB design help you to locate easily the
components. When you flip the PCB and refresh you'll
see the views changed, too. Highliting a component
also highlights in in the view. Select another one and
it appears selected on the view.

Yes, this is a desirable feature. It was originally, if I am correct, a 
quite expensive add-on to PCAD. This feature, as I would anticipate it, 
would allow the placement of a view of the PCB next to the PCB. This view 
might not only be mirrored, if desired, it might also be rescaled; it might 
include only a defined section of the design (i.e., to create a detail view).

The existence of this tool or something like it in PCAD reflects the 
mission and user base of PCAD: PC design specialists working in large 
companies. Protel is aimed primarily at engineers, though there are 
certainly large companies using it.

The original price of PCAD -- at the time Protel bought it -- reflects this 
difference. PCAD pricing was collapsed almost immediately by Protel to a 
flat $10K for the whole shebang, at a time when Protel pricing was still 
$6K for a full suite. Protel pricing has now come up a bit to $8K, but we 
can expect that this pricing really reflects the new elements that will 
appear in Phoenix, since it will include Phoenix when the latter is released.

Bottom line: the (relatively) easy way to make bottom-side-view assembly 
drawings is to export appropriate gerber and re-import it; this is how I 
have done it and I think Techserv does about the same (they may have 
utilities to speed the process, but it is not difficult).

I've got another question.
When moving the selection I placed it close to the
lower left corner... but some of the components are
now out of the working space. I looked to me it was
possible to place them there and Protel didn't
complain. It was deselected and saved in the mean
time.

Naughty, naughty. Yes, Protel allows out-of-workspace primitives. Having 
used Tango, which does not allow this, I'd say that I prefer the Protel 
way; but Protel should add tools to make it easy to recover such 
primitives. Among other things, DRC should report out-of-workspace 
primitives; as it is, an out-of-workspace footprint pad will *not* generate 
an incomplete net error. I consider that a bug.

There is a clear sign that you have out-of-workspace primitives: Zoom All 
will not confine itself to the complete set of primitives that you can see.

The basic method of moving these primitives back into the workspace, where 
they can be manipulated and/or deleted, is to place any primitive, like a 
large pad, Select All, then Deselect Inside to deselect everything visible 
except that pad. Pick up the pad, and when you are moving it, a box should 
appear that will extend out of the workspace. By moving the pad, you may be 
able to bring in the out-of-workspace objects. I say may because 
sometimes an object can be so far outside the workspace, as a result of 
multiple selected object moves, that it will take more than one move to 
bring everything in.

How may I select again the PCB only? There are many
other things than I don't want to move.

Protel provides a powerful set of selection tools. I've described above one 
way to move only out-of-workspace objects. There are others.

Note that sometimes a component may be basically on-screen but may have an 
out-of-workspace primitive. This can make for complications, but it is 
still not difficult to fix once one knows the problem. (Such a condition 
can 

Re: [PEDA] mirroring or flipping a PCB (was:...)

2002-05-01 Thread Mira

Hi,
 
 elements that will 
 appear in Phoenix, since it will include Phoenix
 when the latter is released.

Does anybody know how expensive Phoenix will be?

 Among other things, DRC should report
 out-of-workspace 
 primitives; as it is, an out-of-workspace footprint
 pad will *not* generate 
 an incomplete net error. I consider that a bug.

It should be. I have a PCB, which reports 5 polygons
although I see only 4 on the PCB. One of them is
empty and can't locate it.
When I select all and try to move it, it says there
are locked primitives and one of the polygons doesn't
want to be moved. 
How to find out which primitives are locked? How to
locate the empty polygon?

 To recall some of the discussion in recent threads,
 one will find oneself 
 frustrated over and over by expecting Protel to
 function like other CAD 
 programs. 

I agree. It's quite different but I used to work with
Smart. I thought nothing could surprise me much but
Protel did so.

 Generally, however, 
 once one understands how to accomplish a thing in
 Protel, it does make 
 sense, it is relatively easy to remember. 

Probably... after you remember all sets of buttons to
press.


 But I also expect Protel to be easier for a new
 user, unfamiliar with other 
 CAD systems, 

If he/she was born yesterday, could be. Unfortunately
I'm not of that kind.
I met Orcad on a crossroad several times. PCAD was/is
my love from the first sight.

 One will also learn a lot simply reading the list;
 this is true even for 
 experienced users. There are powerful tools that are
 very easy to use, once 
 one knows that they are there.

I agree. There are many walking tutorials here. Just
for one day (thanks to them) I made such a big step.
This monster is not that big now.

 
 Loop Removal is an example. Loop Removal, when
 enabled, allows rerouting a 
 trace simply by placing a new one over it; the
 original trace will be 
 ripped up without any need to delete tracks
 manually. 

This reminds me about one of the first versions of
Orcad. I had several nets routed but there was no
space for one more and I couldn't find a way to move
the segments. I decided to delete it but for Orcad
this meant remove the net from the netlist. So, I
had to load it again. The right way was to re-route it
from the beginning to the end and then the old one was
removed automatically. I hope this is not the case
here.

=== message truncated ===
Oops, obviously we are very talkative.

Thanks for the help.
Mira

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