Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
Hello Ian, 6) See that tracks and free surface pads are missing. 7) Alt-BkSpace (Undo) 8) See that tracks are still missing after the undo operation. Try pressing the 'End' key if you think the screen is incomplete. This will redraw the screen. Aalt Lokhorst (e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]) address: Schut Geometrische Meettechniek bv Duinkerkenstraat 21 9723 BN Groningen, The Netherlands tel. +31 50-5877877 fax. +31 50-5877899 - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To join or leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/subscrib.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
Rather long post; please read carefully if you want to respond...
For a number of reasons I have been playing about with moving selections
and flipping them ('X' and 'Y' keys) and swapping layers ('L' hot key).
I have found that it is possible to make tracks and surface pads
disappear. They look like they are no longer there (deleted) yet their
(invisible) vertices are still netlist targets - they are just invisible.
I
have not plumbed the depths of the effect (I just found a new effect
whereby not only do the tracks disappear but components are way off the
intended area).
Symptom:
When flipping layers of a moderate to large selection, tracks and surface
pads can disappear and, sometimes components get placed in a wildly
incorrect positions. Through hole pads do not seem to be affected.
snip
Protel have been informed and can replicate the issue. Hopefully this
will
be a SP7 fix.
Ian Wilson
I tried what was suggested: I took a real world PCB file, selected
*everything* in this, and then pressed the L key after invoking the Move
Selection command.
The outcome (without even attempting to then invoke the Undo command) was
a proverbial pig's breakfast. I was previously aware that use of the L key,
while using the Move Selection command, typically produces an undesirable
outcome, but when I tried it this time, with an *entire* PCB file, I was
blown away...
But wait, there's more. Before the release of the Power Print Server, I used
to *mirror* the entrire contents of PCB files whenever I wanted to produce
Composite Mode printouts of items on bottom side layers, to wit, when
creating (real world view) Bottom side Assembly printouts.
Theoretically, this is no longer necessary when using the Power Print
Server, as this supports the generation of printouts of a mirrored nature.
However, I have been requested by fellow employees to create Acrobat files
in which the pages of Assembly printouts (also) contain searchable text.
(There are umpteen hundred components installed on this PCB. Now, exactly
where on the PCB is component R104 installed? ...) To achieve this, I
select the option (provided by the Power Print Server) of using *Windows*
fonts rather than *Protel* fonts. However, as I have reported previously,
both to this forum and directly to Protel, text strings can be displaced
(from their actual locations) within the resulting *actual* printouts,
*unless* the printout is of a mirrored nature. This means mirroring the
entire PCB file to produce (acceptable) Top side Assembly printouts.
(Arrrgh!!) :(
I've explained the background. Typically, I create the Bottom side Assembly
printout (usually, a one page Acrobat file). I then mirror the entire PCB
file, create the Top side Assembly printout (another one page Acrobat file,
which, with the Acrobat file created just previously, and yet another
Acrobat file created from the PCB's associated Schematic file(s), then get
assembled into one single new Acrobat file, this being created and used to
document the PCB in question), and then close the PCB file *without saving
it first*. As such, the PCB file which is saved (to disk) is in an
*un*-mirrored state.
However, after reading Ian's post, I investigated what happens when I
*mirrored* an *entire* PCB file, and then invoked the Undo command. The
mirroring proceedure itself runs without problems (with SP6, you are now
warned that Warning: you are attempting to flip a component to the same
side of the board. ... Do you wish to continue?), in that the outcome of
this matches what is expected. (Qualification: Dimension and Co-ordinate
objects are not without problems (the text strings within these can not be
mirrored), but I don't tend to use these within PCB files that I design.) If
the PCB contains polygons, you are prompted as to whether you want these
repoured; in these circumstances, I do *not* select that option (as I just
want to mirror the PCB file, *without* repouring any integral polygons as
well).
When I then invoke the Undo command, I am once again prompted if I want
the polygons repoured. I did not want these repoured when I moved the
selected items in the first instance, so as far as I am concerned, I do not
want them to be repoured when I then proceed to undo that command; in fact,
I consider that a genuine undo procedure would have recorded my response
as to whether I wanted polygons repoured or not (when I moved the selected
items), so avoiding the requirement to ask me the same question again during
any consequent undo procedure.
If I select the option of *not* repouring the polygons, the polygons within
the PCB file are *not* restored to their previous location (or orientation,
mirror-wise). As far as I am concerned, the undo procedure has not undone
everything; the PCB file now differs from what it was like previously! (If
you select the option of repouring the polygons instead, the polygons *are*
restored to their former locations. However, they have now
Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
At 12:49 PM 4/6/01 +1000, Geoff Harland wrote: However, I have been requested by fellow employees to create Acrobat files in which the pages of Assembly printouts (also) contain searchable text. (There are umpteen hundred components installed on this PCB. Now, exactly where on the PCB is component R104 installed? ...) To achieve this, I select the option (provided by the Power Print Server) of using *Windows* fonts rather than *Protel* fonts. However, as I have reported previously, both to this forum and directly to Protel, text strings can be displaced (from their actual locations) within the resulting *actual* printouts, *unless* the printout is of a mirrored nature. This means mirroring the entire PCB file to produce (acceptable) Top side Assembly printouts. (Arrrgh!!) :( I do bottom assembly drawings by making mirrored bottom padmaster and bottom legend gerber photoplots and then importing them to an assembly drawing layer. I also do this with the top assembly, and I then have top and bottom assembly drawings side-by-side on a single assembly drawing. (The top assembly is typically co-located with the actual PCB.) It's nice that Protel allows pads on mech layers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax P.O. Box 690 El Verano, CA 95433 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To join or leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/subscrib.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
Ian Wrote: I should have been more explicit and anticipated this. Redrawing the screen does not help. The tracks are not displayed. In fact if you know where one is you can double click and bring up its properties. If you then change its layer (to any other layer) it will then display correctly. The error is some sort of incomplete iteration of the linked lists or whatever in the display routines, at least this is what it looks like. Ian Hello Ian, Now I understand what you mean. I see the 'hooroo' greeting as long as i can remember so i was wondering how it was possible that such an Protel expert did not know about the redraw 'End' key. I should know better before answering with this response. Sorry Aalt Lokhorst (e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]) address: Schut Geometrische Meettechniek bv Duinkerkenstraat 21 9723 BN Groningen, The Netherlands tel. +31 50-5877877 fax. +31 50-5877899 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To join or leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/subscrib.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
On 09:50 AM 6/04/2001 +0200, Aalt Lokhorst said: Ian Wrote: Hello Ian, Now I understand what you mean. I see the 'hooroo' greeting as long as i can remember so i was wondering how it was possible that such an Protel expert did not know about the redraw 'End' key. I should know better before answering with this response. Sorry Aalt Lokhorst (e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aalt, I hope I did not come over as rude. Must be time for me to leave this list then (he says only half joking) - or at least shut-up a bit (definitely not joking). I have quite a deep distrust of experts; in my experience a non-insignificant proportion of them have forgotten how to learn new things. This is particularly so of those that call themselves experts. Any this is OT so I will toss in a Protelism. I seem to recall flipping layers with the 'L' key (didn't it used to be the 'S' key in the dim distant past?) and having no problems. Does anyone have a P98 installation running that would allow them to check what happens when you swap to the other layer a big selection? Are there any P99 (non-SE - though I can't see why one would) users out there that could test it. hooroo, Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To join or leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/subscrib.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
G'Day all,
For a number of reasons I have been playing about with moving selections
and flipping them ('X' and 'Y' keys) and swapping layers ('L' hot key).
I have found that it is possible to make tracks and surface pads
disappear. They look like they are no longer there (deleted) yet their
(invisible) vertices are still netlist targets - they are just invisible. I
have not plumbed the depths of the effect (I just found a new effect
whereby not only do the tracks disappear but components are way off the
intended area).
Symptom:
When flipping layers of a moderate to large selection, tracks and surface
pads can disappear and, sometimes components get placed in a wildly
incorrect positions. Through hole pads do not seem to be affected.
Details:
---
To replicate:
1) Open a PCB file with a good number of tracks and components.
2) Select a block containing a decent number of tracks (20, 30 or more)
3) M-S (Move-Selection) click to choose the reference point and move the
block about
4) Hit the 'L' key to invert the selection.
5) left click to place the selection.
6) See that tracks and free surface pads are missing.
7) Alt-BkSpace (Undo)
8) See that tracks are still missing after the undo operation.
If you save the file, close and re-open the tracks will appear again. I do
not know how deep the corruption goes but something in the PCB data
structure is off. I do not know if this is purely cosmetic or whether one
is inviting further and deeper problems by continuing to edit the file. I
assume that after the save, close, open that the data structures are all OK
again and editing can safely continue.
Lesson - take care when flipping selections to the other side of a PCB.
Backup the file before starting the operation, save and close and open
after doing the operation. I suggest saving the corrupted file to a new
name until you are sure you do not need to go back to the undamaged version.
I suspect that few people have need of flipping selections between layers -
so most people will not be affected. Those that do are heading into
unknown territory.
Protel have been informed and can replicate the issue. Hopefully this will
be a SP7 fix.
hooroo,
Ian Wilson
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [PEDA] Bug - Move Selection (and flipping layers) SP6
At 12:49 PM 4/6/01 +1000, Geoff Harland wrote: However, I have been requested by fellow employees to create Acrobat files in which the pages of Assembly printouts (also) contain searchable text. (There are umpteen hundred components installed on this PCB. Now, exactly where on the PCB is component R104 installed? ...) To achieve this, I select the option (provided by the Power Print Server) of using *Windows* fonts rather than *Protel* fonts. However, as I have reported previously, both to this forum and directly to Protel, text strings can be displaced (from their actual locations) within the resulting *actual* printouts, *unless* the printout is of a mirrored nature. This means mirroring the entire PCB file to produce (acceptable) Top side Assembly printouts. (Arrrgh!!) :( I do bottom assembly drawings by making mirrored bottom padmaster and bottom legend gerber photoplots and then importing them to an assembly drawing layer. I also do this with the top assembly, and I then have top and bottom assembly drawings side-by-side on a single assembly drawing. (The top assembly is typically co-located with the actual PCB.) It's nice that Protel allows pads on mech layers Abdulrahman Lomax That is all very well, but text information is lost when you create Gerber files and then import them back into Protel again (on a different layer); each letter within each string gets converted into strokes (within the Gerber files), and as such, gets converted into non-text material. If I were to then create Acrobat files from such a PCB file, other users would not be able to search for R104 (say) on the Assembly drawing page(s) while using Acrobat's (text) searching feature (and that would be the case regardless of whether I selected the use of Windows fonts or Protel fonts when producing the printouts concerned). Re pads on Mechanical layers. Maybe things have changed with SP6, but with at least some of the earlier versions of Protel 99 SE (and earlier versions of Protel), each pad on a Mechanical layer would be flashed in a Gerber file if that (Gerber) file was produced from the *same* (Mechanical) layer that the pad was located on, but would *not* be flashed within any Gerber file produced from any *other* layer (and regardless of whether that (Mechanical) layer had been selected for inclusion in all Gerber files or otherwise). That is a trap for the unwary (because *other* types of primitives on those Mechanical layers do end up within the Gerber files) ... Regards, Geoff Harland. - E-Mail Disclaimer The Information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any opinions or advice contained in this e-mail are confidential and not for public display. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To join or leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/subscrib.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
