Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
I had to try panelizing a PCB the other day, as I had to connect all the power and GND lines upto a main connector on the panel, so that the boards could be assembled on the panel, powered up and tested, as well as burn-ins B4 breaking the individual circuits from the panel. I tried to do it using paste special command with all keep net commands checked, but this took forever, and kept crashing, so in the end I unchecked the keep net box, but kept the keep designator box, and made the panel with DRC errors (I ran the DRC on the individual PCB to verify everything was OK B4 panelizing). I then had to connect all the power lines through a couple of breakout tabs of the panel. This worked Ok, but I found it hard to set up all the mechanical outlines, for the breakout tabs, etc. Steve Does anyone have a good procedure for PCB panelization? I've tried it in Protel (99SE), and it wants to connect all the nets (which I understand). When I try it in Camtastic, there is a lot of router and mousebite info I'd like to add but it doesn't seem like a natural place to add that stuff. I've never been requested to panalize before now. It seems messy. Tony * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
While I'm following this thread I'm playing with some new thoughts I caught for panelizing a PCB within Protel. Anyway it is really hard work and much easier to let the PCB house do it for you. However, what do you folks think about an input to Protel for the requirements for a panelizing server for P99SE (that can't be so hard for Protel, can it)? For example: - Beeing able to define a placement array (like in Camtastic) - Further beeing able to place PCB copys in a copy/paste manner for free positionning - Ability to flip individual PCB copys (upside down) - Saving the panel setup for future changes of the PCB - Generating the correct manufacturing files for the Panel (I'm particularly thinking on Pick'n'Place) That are the most importrant requirements for me I already had in the past (and was able to cheat araound). It seems that more of you would have similar requirements. Regards, Emanuel Stephen Smith wrote: I had to try panelizing a PCB the other day, as I had to connect all the power and GND lines upto a main connector on the panel, so that the boards could be assembled on the panel, powered up and tested, as well as burn-ins B4 breaking the individual circuits from the panel. I tried to do it using paste special command with all keep net commands checked, but this took forever, and kept crashing, so in the end I unchecked the keep net box, but kept the keep designator box, and made the panel with DRC errors (I ran the DRC on the individual PCB to verify everything was OK B4 panelizing). I then had to connect all the power lines through a couple of breakout tabs of the panel. This worked Ok, but I found it hard to set up all the mechanical outlines, for the breakout tabs, etc. Steve -- MPL AG www.mpl.ch Emanuel Zimmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manager RD Phone: +41 (0)56 483 34 34 Taefernstrasse 20 Fax: +41 (0)56 493 30 20 CH-5405 Daettwil * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
These topics seem to come up frequently: 1) How to panelize 2) How to create odd-shaped PCBs, holes, and slots 3) How to create jumper PCB tracks 4) How to create fuse PCB tracks 5) How to create PCB spark gaps These topics should be FAQ'ed on our hypothetical website. You know, the one with all the nifty PCB footprints. Has anyone started that website yet? I remember some folks saying they were going to take discussion of it to a separate list, but I don't know what that list is. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? Stephen, we do this all the time for panelizing multiple designs or just multiples of a single design. What we do is to completely define one PCB of the panel, complete with route centerlines, and breaks for the tabs (no route centerline for a tab). We then just copy the one complete PCB into a panel, all the routing and holes for mouse-bits are copied at once. We then save the panel under a different file name which indicates it is a panel. Then if we change something we only edit the original single board design and then recopy it into the panel outline. For editing and copying a revised design, I usually mark some mechanical layer with a reference point before deleting the old revisions from the panel. This just helps you get things back into the panel again without having to figure out all your spacing between boards again. One other tip, we typically use ACAD to do all the board outline design. Then we can offset to get our route centerline, break that centerline where we want a tab. Import the board outline into Protel along with the route centerline onto a mechanical layer. If we wanted mouse-bites then we add vias of the appropriate size in the proper locations. All this is within the single PCB design and then gets copied for the panel, thus panels are no more work then calculating the offset PCB to PCB and using the paste special, copy array function to get each row or column of PCBs. Brad Velander, Lead PCB Designer, Norsat International Inc., #300 - 4401 Still Creek Dr., Burnaby, B.C., V5C 6G9. Tel. (604) 292-9089 direct Fax (604) 292-9010 website www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Stephen Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:57 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? I had to try panelizing a PCB the other day, as I had to connect all the power and GND lines upto a main connector on the panel, so that the boards could be assembled on the panel, powered up and tested, as well as burn-ins B4 breaking the individual circuits from the panel. I tried to do it using paste special command with all keep net commands checked, but this took forever, and kept crashing, so in the end I unchecked the keep net box, but kept the keep designator box, and made the panel with DRC errors (I ran the DRC on the individual PCB to verify everything was OK B4 panelizing). I then had to connect all the power lines through a couple of breakout tabs of the panel. This worked Ok, but I found it hard to set up all the mechanical outlines, for the breakout tabs, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
Does anyone have a good procedure for PCB panelization? I've tried it in Protel (99SE), and it wants to connect all the nets (which I understand). When I try it in Camtastic, there is a lot of router and mousebite info I'd like to add but it doesn't seem like a natural place to add that stuff. I've never been requested to panalize before now. It seems messy. Tony * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
we use protel use paste special on a copy of the board set keep nets, dupe desigs works pretty well Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: Does anyone have a good procedure for PCB panelization? I've tried it in Protel (99SE), and it wants to connect all the nets (which I understand). When I try it in Camtastic, there is a lot of router and mousebite info I'd like to add but it doesn't seem like a natural place to add that stuff. I've never been requested to panalize before now. It seems messy. Tony -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
Many designers try to panel a board within Protel. It can be done but it's messy and I don't recommend it unless you are trying to put different layouts into one panel to save fab costs. If the purpose of your panel is for economical assembly, use a panel drawing, or incorporate the panel drawing into your fabrication drawing. To do this, simply draw and dimension your panel with instructions for your fab house to step and repeat your CAM data. Mark Koitmaa, C.I.D. Certified Interconnect Designer TechServ Tel: 408-369-7950 Fax: 408-369-7952 http://www.techservinc.com At 11:37 AM 8/16/2001, you wrote: Does anyone have a good procedure for PCB panelization? I've tried it in Protel (99SE), and it wants to connect all the nets (which I understand). When I try it in Camtastic, there is a lot of router and mousebite info I'd like to add but it doesn't seem like a natural place to add that stuff. I've never been requested to panalize before now. It seems messy. Tony * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
I agree. I've made many panels. But uncheck keep nets, otherwise Protel will draw rubber bands. And another thing: don't repour polygons if asked The panelized Board has different netnames and different design rules so the polygons will not look as before. I've also made panels with different population on the boards (for an application where we needed some instances of the same board in one Appliance, but with different timings). I made then one pick and place list for the whole panel, with different values on the single boards. Works also pretty good. regards, Heiko Vachek elektronik 21 GmbH E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webseite: http://www.elektronik21.de -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:57 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? we use protel use paste special on a copy of the board set keep nets, dupe desigs works pretty well Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: Does anyone have a good procedure for PCB panelization? I've tried it in Protel (99SE), and it wants to connect all the nets (which I understand). When I try it in Camtastic, there is a lot of router and mousebite info I'd like to add but it doesn't seem like a natural place to add that stuff. I've never been requested to panalize before now. It seems messy. Tony -- __ _ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
Pardon my ignorance...What's a mousebite? A cute name for a break-apart slot? I'm thinking it might be good to add the support bars and mousebites in Protel, then panelize in Camtastic and just connect the board together... Darryl Newberry Hardware Engineer Freedom Scientific, Inc 2850 SE Market Pl Stuart FL 34997 (561) 223-6443 http://www.freedomscientific.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
a break away tab that is made up of multiple drills. kind of looks like a mouse took a bite out of the board. | | * * * * | | Ted -Original Message- From: Darryl Newberry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 2:39 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? Pardon my ignorance...What's a mousebite? A cute name for a break-apart slot? I'm thinking it might be good to add the support bars and mousebites in Protel, then panelize in Camtastic and just connect the board together... Darryl Newberry Hardware Engineer Freedom Scientific, Inc 2850 SE Market Pl Stuart FL 34997 (561) 223-6443 http://www.freedomscientific.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
A few things to consider... After doing all the editing and work-arounds required to panel within Protel, are your going to be able to get a clean DRC? Do you really want to do that amount of editing without one? What are you going to do when its time to rev the design? Are you being paid by the job or by the hour? In either case you probably have better things to do with you time. In my view, if the Protel database contains the panel drawing and complete documentation, then the panel is being controlled by one source file. When we panel a layout, the 1up layout includes all the holes for the mouse bites, additional plane clearances, etc. The fab/panel drawing includes complete panel outlines including support bars and all routing. The fab house's CAM operators need only do a simple step and repeat. If your layout is properly designed and the fabrication and panel documentation is complete, it should make no difference that the fab is being subcontracted. If you haven't already done so, try talking to your 'new facility' and explain that EDA software is not designed for paneling. Let them know that the fab facilities are the paneling 'experts', they have better tools to do it correctly, and therefor can do it quicker, at less cost, and more reliably. If your facilities still insist you do it, use Camtastic but do your documentation in Protel. Camtastic can handle the step and repeat with ease, and the Protel database will remain intact for future revisions! Mark Koitmaa, C.I.D. Certified Interconnect Designer TechServ Tel: 408-369-7950 Fax: 408-369-7952 http://www.techservinc.com At 12:16 PM 8/16/2001, you wrote: Thanks Dennis and Mark. Wouldn't you know it: the first two responses are opposite!! :) It's being submitted to a new facility which subcontracts the PCB fab, and handles assembly. They indicated it would be best if I control the panalization from one source file, that way there is never a problem with the data for the PCBs, solder paste panels, etc. I usually submit the gerber for one board, and everyone deals with it, but in this cause I need to create the panalization details. (Not just instructions on how to panelize) Do others have this same requirement? I tried what Dennis stated, and on a 900MHz machine with 1/2Gig RAM, Win2000 said it was running low on virtual memory? Huh? I thought it had a 3 Gig harddrive's worth of virtual memory? (That's the free space on my 20 Gig drive) I'm thinking it might be good to add the support bars and mousebites in Protel, then panelize in Camtastic and just connect the board together... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
Hi Mark, I'm paid by the hour in this case, but we need to keep a cap on things, ya know? ;) All good points. I think I basically agree with what you said. Yes, they insist I do it for some odd reason. (Like I said, I haven't had to do this in 14 years.) Thanks for your (and everyone's) feedback. Tony -Original Message- From: Mark Koitmaa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 1:26 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? A few things to consider... After doing all the editing and work-arounds required to panel within Protel, are your going to be able to get a clean DRC? Do you really want to do that amount of editing without one? What are you going to do when its time to rev the design? Are you being paid by the job or by the hour? In either case you probably have better things to do with you time. In my view, if the Protel database contains the panel drawing and complete documentation, then the panel is being controlled by one source file. When we panel a layout, the 1up layout includes all the holes for the mouse bites, additional plane clearances, etc. The fab/panel drawing includes complete panel outlines including support bars and all routing. The fab house's CAM operators need only do a simple step and repeat. If your layout is properly designed and the fabrication and panel documentation is complete, it should make no difference that the fab is being subcontracted. If you haven't already done so, try talking to your 'new facility' and explain that EDA software is not designed for paneling. Let them know that the fab facilities are the paneling 'experts', they have better tools to do it correctly, and therefor can do it quicker, at less cost, and more reliably. If your facilities still insist you do it, use Camtastic but do your documentation in Protel. Camtastic can handle the step and repeat with ease, and the Protel database will remain intact for future revisions! Mark Koitmaa, C.I.D. Certified Interconnect Designer TechServ Tel: 408-369-7950 Fax: 408-369-7952 http://www.techservinc.com At 12:16 PM 8/16/2001, you wrote: Thanks Dennis and Mark. Wouldn't you know it: the first two responses are opposite!! :) It's being submitted to a new facility which subcontracts the PCB fab, and handles assembly. They indicated it would be best if I control the panalization from one source file, that way there is never a problem with the data for the PCBs, solder paste panels, etc. I usually submit the gerber for one board, and everyone deals with it, but in this cause I need to create the panalization details. (Not just instructions on how to panelize) Do others have this same requirement? I tried what Dennis stated, and on a 900MHz machine with 1/2Gig RAM, Win2000 said it was running low on virtual memory? Huh? I thought it had a 3 Gig harddrive's worth of virtual memory? (That's the free space on my 20 Gig drive) I'm thinking it might be good to add the support bars and mousebites in Protel, then panelize in Camtastic and just connect the board together... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel?
I guess I'm lucky, in that my board house uses Protel. My method for panelization is as follows: 1. Create new .ddb file for the panel; 2. copy the boards I want on the panel into new .ddb; 3. Make a new pcb in the .ddb for the panel; 4. open each pcb in turn, and copy just the board outline onto the panel as req'd; 5. save, zip and email to fab house. I get a lot less error when they do the final copy and paste onto the board - there are a lot of little gotcha's that can happen, even if you've done it a hundred times. Cheers, Matthew van de Werken Electronics Engineer CSIRO Exploration Mining - Gravity Group 1 Technology Court - Pullenvale - Qld - 4069 ph: (07) 3327 4685 fax: (07) 3327 4455 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Michael Reagan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 17 August 2001 6:40 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Camtastic or Protel? Many designers try to panel a board within Protel. It can be done but it's messy and I don't recommend it unless you are trying to put different layouts into one panel to save fab costs. If the purpose of your panel is for economical assembly, use a panel drawing, or incorporate the panel drawing into your fabrication drawing. To do this, simply draw and dimension your panel with instructions for your fab house to step and repeat your CAM data. I would like to add that I follow Mark K's recommdation for panelizing . I add the outline to the drill drawing layer and add a few fab notes, One more thing you must do is send the paste file and request that the paneled paste file is returned to you, otherwise you may never be able to generate a paneled screen. This method also releases you from many other head-aches if you have to modify the design. You only need to make changes to one design Mike Reagan Also C.I.D EDSI Frederick MD * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
