Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Brad, Ian, Sorry for jumping in so late, I've had busy days and read this thread just a while ago. The answer for the question: Why is it that we are finding these items now? could be - because they are well hidden :) Seriously, there is Protel's KB Item 1920 explaining briefly why Import from and Export to Database items are not in the menu, although they should have been there since Service Pack 1. It says: They have not been updated properly with the instalation of Service Pack 1. The process can be run manually or added to the menu. I don't know why this statement is still valid with Service Pack 6! I used both tools - Database Linking and Import from Database - they seem to be comparably slow, though I haven't banchmarked them. Sincerely, Wojciech Oborski * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
And the dBase database linker: does it even work? Does it work *well*? Works to its limits and is very slow. It does not allow the footprint to be updated, for instance. Greetings All, I just wanted to chime in with my experiences using the dbase import function of protel. I agree with Ian, it's really slow, but it is managable. I am hoping this is improved in protel dxp. I really wish that it worked with other types of databases, like mysql or postgresql. I am using the process Sch:ImportSchematicfromDatabase. The way I have it setup is by using the 16 partfields. I use part field 3 for the in-house company part# which I key off of. Part fields 1 and 2, I have setup to be visible on the schematic. I use Part fields 1 and 2 for extra part information, like power ratings on resistors, voltage ratings on capacitors, and general descriptions. The other part fields are used for other information about the part. I have a dbase database setup with all the information on the part including the footprint. I key off of part field 3, and the import function puts everything into the part, the part type, footprint, and the other part fields. You can also use it to import the proper schematic symbol (lib ref field) as well. You can update the whole schematic project, just the current sheet, or just the selected components. It works like a charm for me :) For example: on a resistor once I update it, it looks something like this: | / R1 -Designator \ 10K -Part Type (imported from database) / 1/4W -Part Field 1 (imported from database) \ 5% -Part Field 2 (imported from database) | It now has all the relevant information in there including the footprint. Ian, I am not sure why you said the footprint can't be updated, perhaps your thinking of another method of importing the data? or perhaps I misunderstood something somewhere. For me, this works really well. The only problems I have with it is the if your updating alot of parts at the same time, it can take quite a long time, several minutes or more. It does give you a chance to take a quick break though :) This I hope gets addressed in a service pack or in the new dxp. Here is a portion of my ProtelDB99SE.ini file showing how I have the references to the database setup: [Import Primitives] Primitive0=Part [Import Attributes for Part] Attribute0=DESC14 Library Reference Attribute1=FOOTPRINT Footprint Attribute2=DESC1 Part Type Attribute3=DESC2 Part Field 1 Attribute4=DESC3 Part Field 2 Attribute5=PARTNUM Part Field 3 Attribute6=MAX_DESC1 Part Field 4 Attribute7=MAX_DESC2 Part Field 5 Attribute8=ZONE Part Field 6 Attribute9=UNITCOST Part Field 7 Attribute10=SMT Part Field 8 Attribute11=QTY Part Field 9 Attribute12=TYPE Part Field 11 Attribute13=HARDWARE Part Field 12 Attribute14=STATION Part Field 13 Attribute15=DESC15 Part Field 15 Attribute16=DESC16 Part Field 16 [Key Attributes for Part] Attribute0=Part Field 3 [Import Primitive Filenames] Part=X:\Database\partmaster.dbf If you have any questions, just ask away. Chris -- Christopher Brand Ludlum Measurements, Inc. PO Box 810 501 Oak Street Sweetwater, TX 79556 USA (915) 235-4947 phone (915) 235-4672 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ludlums.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Chris, it seems that you are talking about something different than Ian or others have mentioned. By your description you are exporting the schematic information to a spreadsheet, manipulating it and then re-importing the data. Ian's comments were about the built-in database linking function (under 'T'ools, 'D'atabase Links...) that will link information from an external DBIII or DBIV database. The database linking is slow as molasses! Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Christopher Brand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 8:38 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions Greetings All, are used for other information about the part. I have a dbase database setup with all the information on the part including the footprint. I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
On 10:38 AM 23/01/2003 -0600, Christopher Brand said: And the dBase database linker: does it even work? Does it work *well*? Works to its limits and is very slow. It does not allow the footprint to be updated, for instance. Greetings All, I just wanted to chime in with my experiences using the dbase import function of protel. I agree with Ian, it's really slow, but it is managable. I am hoping this is improved in protel dxp. I really wish that it worked with other types of databases, like mysql or postgresql. I am using the process Sch:ImportSchematicfromDatabase. P99SE has a menu function Tools|Database links which runs the process Sch:UpdatePartDatabaseLinks. This only allows you to update the 16 part fields. Not footprints or other stuff. I had not seen the Sch:ImportSchematicfromDatabase process before - always new stuff to find. Looks a lot more useful than Sch:UpdatePartDatabaseLinks. Does it remember your settings or do you have to set it up each time? (I gather so from the section on the ini file you included in your post.) How slow? You say a few minutes. Sch:UpdatePartDatabaseLinks can take many many minutes (like 10's of minutes or more). (Brad V - I noted your comment on this thread - No, Chris is doing a real import but from a dialog I had not seen or investigated before. Dunno the speed, maybe others that use database linking can benchmark it.) ..snip..It now has all the relevant information in there including the footprint. Ian, I am not sure why you said the footprint can't be updated, perhaps your thinking of another method of importing the data? Yep, see above. or perhaps I misunderstood something somewhere. For me, this works really well. The only problems I have with it is the if your updating alot of parts at the same time, it can take quite a long time, several minutes or more. It does give you a chance to take a quick break though :) This I hope gets addressed in a service pack or in the new dxp. DXP has done some radical changes in importing. I have not investigated the details but it pretty much supports pretty much any database that has a interface to the JET database stuff - I think you can get plugins for pretty much any of the database engines now - including MySQL etc. Dunno about speed - I haven't played with this aspect at all. Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Ian, The speed of the Sch:ImportSchematicFromDatabase is probably just as slow as the Sch:UpdatedPartDatabaseLinks. I remember playing with the database links a while back when we got protel98, but couldn't quite get it to do what I wanted. I don't remember how I found the Sch:ImportSchematicFromDatabase process, I probably just found it looking through the process list. I don't recall if this process was ever in a menu, perhaps in 98? A schematic project of 2 or 3 sheets with lots of parts would update in 10 minutes or so. A good time to step away from the computer. Usually what I'll do is, as I am drawing out the schematic, I'll update a few parts at a time, I only takes a few seconds to update 4 or 5 parts at once. As I am drawing the schematic out, it's easy to do it this way. The settings stay, so you just set it up and forget it. All the settings are stored in the ProtelDB99SE.ini in your windows folder. I've added a button in my toolbar to run this process. The only setting you might change is setting the scope - either Current Project, or Current Sheet. It's best to leave the action to Update Only. The other thing you might change is the checkbox to apply the update to just the selected objects. I've got the demo for dxp, around here somewhere, when I can get a chance I'll have to try the new database stuff to see if its faster. Brad, nope - I'm talking about importing part information into the schematic from a database. I don't recall mentioning using a spreadsheet in my previous post, but it has been a long day :) I wonder if I have stumbled onto a feature of protel you guys haven't found or used yet, it could be time for my 15 minutes of fame :P chris -- Christopher Brand Ludlum Measurements, Inc. PO Box 810 501 Oak Street Sweetwater, TX 79556 USA (915) 235-4947 phone (915) 235-4672 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ludlums.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Ian, so I see said the blind man! By the description I had assumed he must be doing the spreadsheet export, modify it in some fashion, re-import the spreadsheet. I probably won't have time to check it out for a while but it sounds very interesting. How have you missed this function with all of your work to develop your server which does close to the same functions? Studying the SDK and existing servers, you never discovered this? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. 8^ Why is it that we are finding these items now! Four years after the programs release and we are still discovering things by accident. This is what pisses me off so much about Protel/Altium, what kind of support is this? DXP is even worse, they barely had any documentation for it at the start, a little bit better now by what I read. Still mostly incomplete though. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:16 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions (Brad V - I noted your comment on this thread - No, Chris is doing a real import but from a dialog I had not seen or investigated before. Dunno the speed, maybe others that use database linking can benchmark it.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
-Original Message- From: Brad Velander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 24 January 2003 09:57 To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions -snip- Why is it that we are finding these items now! Four years after the programs release and we are still discovering things by accident. -snip- Because of poor documentation, and it's not just Protel at fault, it's prevalent throughout today's industry. With fast time to market and short product life being the main reasons. I only discovered my car has beverage holders this morning (after owning it for 3 years), despite the fact that I have (unlike most car owners) read the manual. Tom. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Thomas, your answer is correct for some cases. For other cases it is just because they can get away with it. At the moment it seems that a large number of our former brethren are letting them get away with it to new extremes. Acts like that allow the industry to lower the standards. What keeps manuals a necessity in some industries, customer demand, right? This is where I draw a line, I don't let them get away with it, they don't get my money (the company's money that I control) until I am satisfied the product is finished/workable/releasable (which includes documentation to a certain standard). It is not up to me to 'discover' how the program works or doesn't work for $8000 or even the $1500 for the upgrade. As for your beverage holders, did you ever pour hot coffee in your lap while driving this vehicle? Possibly/probably you could sue! 8^ Naw, forget it, I don't promote people suing because they lack a sense of responsibility for their own actions, there is too much of that crap in the courts these days. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 3:40 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions -snip- Why is it that we are finding these items now! Four years after the programs release and we are still discovering things by accident. -snip- Because of poor documentation, and it's not just Protel at fault, it's prevalent throughout today's industry. With fast time to market and short product life being the main reasons. I only discovered my car has beverage holders this morning (after owning it for 3 years), despite the fact that I have (unlike most car owners) read the manual. Tom. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Hi all, I have several questions oriented around the general theme of library organization and component data tracking (part #, distributor, price, etc.). I don't expect anyone to answer all of these, but opinions regarding any points here are most appreciated. One way or another, any re-organization will be labor intensive so we're looking for gotcha's first. We're using Protel99SE SP6. As we all know, component data tracking in Protel is awkward. Currently, we're using a convoluted procedure of tracking data in Sch Part Fields and importing/exporting the database via the Protel spreadsheet editor (performing sweeping changes in Excel external to Protel). While this does work and allows speadsheet format editing, it's labor intensive and leaves the door wide open to major errors upon re-import. The list of work-arounds involved is endless. We'd like to come up with new techniques that are as bullet-proof as possible. We're considering changing to a system where each Sch component's data is tracked in its Library Fields. This means that each value of a resistor (for example) will have to have a different Sch library entry. A benefit here is that we research the part info just once when we make the Sch component and that data is always brought to the schematic. Furthermore, each component (in Sch lib) will have only one footprint assigned to it (with the same name as the Sch component). A separate footprint then exists for each Sch component. This gets around several possible errors that can occur when one footprint is assigned to multiple Sch symbols. Obviously, a major drawback to this technique is that we make a zillion footprint entries - many identical except for the name. That's not quite as bad as it sounds as we don't use *that* many different components. The main question regarding this technique: Is there a limit on the number of symbols in a schematic library or footprints in a PCB library? We don't want to get mostly done to find that Protel has a weird bug with too many components in a library. I would guess we're still talking fewer than 300 components per library but I'd be interested to know if there's any amount that's problematic. We've also been considering use of software called Parts and Vendors (http://www.trilogydesign.com/main.htm). Does anyone out there have any experience with this or are currently using it with Protel? It appears to cross reference to your own in-house part # and allows many component data tracking options. I don't know yet if it can be linked to Protel other than through more manual interactions with the spreadsheet function. It looks like it will take notable time even to evaluate this software so I thought I'd ask here first. How about the Visual Basic scripts that Protel supports? Although doing complex macros seems like a big undertaking, is this how many people are solving these problems? I've heard about one script that does something with library fields but can't remember who made it or what it actually does. From the looks of it, knowledge of VB seems mandatory for getting into this side of Protel. Any opinions or info on scripts and their use is invited. And the dBase database linker: does it even work? Does it work *well*? Or is it an unusable feature like the 3D PCB viewer. We're wondering if switching to dBase and using the linker is a better overall alternative. I realize lots of this has been covered here in the past but it was hard to narrow down the archive search engine to bring it all up. In general, any commentary on component data tracking or related is greatly appreciated - how you do it, would like to do it, whatever. Thanks one and all! Buck Buchanan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
Buck, I am sending you an email that I have shared with others asking some similar questions. Won't repost the same thing over again here. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Buck Buchanan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:18 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions Hi all, We've also been considering use of software called Parts and Vendors (http://www.trilogydesign.com/main.htm). Does anyone out there have any experience with this or are currently using it with Protel? It appears to cross reference to your own in-house part # and allows many component data tracking options. I don't know yet if it can be linked to Protel other than through more manual interactions with the spreadsheet function. It looks like it will take notable time even to evaluate this software so I thought I'd ask here first. SNIP And the dBase database linker: does it even work? Does it work *well*? Or is it an unusable feature like the 3D PCB viewer. We're wondering if switching to dBase and using the linker is a better overall alternative. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
On 03:18 PM 22/01/2003 -0800, Buck Buchanan said: Hi all, I have several questions oriented around the general theme of library organization and component data tracking (part #, distributor, price, etc.). I don't expect anyone to answer all of these, but opinions regarding any points here are most appreciated. One way or another, any re-organization will be labor intensive so we're looking for gotcha's first. We're using Protel99SE SP6. As we all know, component data tracking in Protel is awkward. Currently, we're using a convoluted procedure of tracking data in Sch Part Fields and importing/exporting the database via the Protel spreadsheet editor (performing sweeping changes in Excel external to Protel). While this does work and allows speadsheet format editing, it's labor intensive and leaves the door wide open to major errors upon re-import. The list of work-arounds involved is endless. We'd like to come up with new techniques that are as bullet-proof as possible. We're considering changing to a system where each Sch component's data is tracked in its Library Fields. This means that each value of a resistor (for example) will have to have a different Sch library entry. Yep - many people work this way. A read only (Sch Lib) field holds the company part number and can then be used as key to everything else. A benefit here is that we research the part info just once when we make the Sch component and that data is always brought to the schematic. Furthermore, each component (in Sch lib) will have only one footprint assigned to it (with the same name as the Sch component). A separate footprint then exists for each Sch component. This part (a different footprint is not really necessary, or at least many companies don't go this far. They will have, for instanc, one 0805 footprint or maybe one 0805REFLOW and one 0805WAVE etc. I use this technique but am quite explicit in my footprint naming - eg SO20.3WAVE for a wave footprint version of an S0-20 with a 0.3 inch body. This gets around several possible errors that can occur when one footprint is assigned to multiple Sch symbols. Obviously, a major drawback to this technique is that we make a zillion footprint entries - many identical except for the name. That's not quite as bad as it sounds as we don't use *that* many different components. The main question regarding this technique: Is there a limit on the number of symbols in a schematic library or footprints in a PCB library? Not that I know of. We don't want to get mostly done to find that Protel has a weird bug with too many components in a library. I would guess we're still talking fewer than 300 components per library but I'd be interested to know if there's any amount that's problematic. 300 should not be an issue I would think. We've also been considering use of software called Parts and Vendors (http://www.trilogydesign.com/main.htm). Does anyone out there have any experience with this or are currently using it with Protel? It appears to cross reference to your own in-house part # and allows many component data tracking options. I don't know yet if it can be linked to Protel other than through more manual interactions with the spreadsheet function. It looks like it will take notable time even to evaluate this software so I thought I'd ask here first. How about the Visual Basic scripts that Protel supports? P99SE does *not* support VB scripts. It has its own internal Client Basic macro language (looks like traditional BASIC essentially). But this is very limited in what access you can get to internal database data. For deeper work you need Delphi (V5 for P99SE SP6). Although doing complex macros seems like a big undertaking, is this how many people are solving these problems? I've heard about one script that does something with library fields but can't remember who made it or what it actually does. I wrote a server that allows you to update all non-readonly fields for Sch components from an Excel spreadsheet. This includes footprints etc. It works *much* faster than the DB linking feature in P99SE. It can key off essentially any field but is most useful when you have the unique company part number in a SchLib (read-only) field. This allows you to bring in all the descriptions, footprints etc from the external Excel database. Server can be found at http://www.considered.com.au/Protel01.html From the looks of it, knowledge of VB seems mandatory for getting into this side of Protel. Any opinions or info on scripts and their use is invited. Delphi is needed for any significant work at the component level - either that or some small servers (in Delphi) that can expose the data you want to the Client Basic scripts. And the dBase database linker: does it even work? Does it work *well*? Works to its limits and is very slow. It does not allow the footprint to be updated, for instance. Or is it an
Re: [PEDA] General component data tracking and library management questions
At 10:43 AM 23/01/2003 +1100, Ian Wilson wrote: Server can be found at http://www.considered.com.au/Protel01.html It was pointed out to me that I don't know my own site very well :-) There is no 'l' on the .html Correct link is: http://www.considered.com.au/Protel01.htm Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
