Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-06 Thread Jean-Christophe Meylan

Hi Ian,

 I suspect that we could fairly readily make a cut-down version of the
 server that just inverted the current selection - but it
 would only invert
 fairly standard entities like components, tracks, pads, vias
 etc.  Polygons
 were a little difficult from memory but I think we had them
 solved (but
 only if we cleared the undo stack).  Geoff and I were having
 discussions
 on the best method of dealing with fills - but I think these
 were solved as
 well.  Things like rules and layer stack-up, blind and buried
 vias etc
 would *not* be handled correctly - the user would need to
 patch these manually.

I'm not sure to right understand: do you explain that you could
distribute a simplified version of your add-on server? I don't need the
polygons, only the ability to flip components, tracks, pads and
multilayer vias.


 Geoff Harland and I were co-operating on a server that would invert a
 board.  We ran into problems that, though probably possible
 to solve would
 have taken way too much volunteer effort.  So we have let it
 pretty much
 stop. A time limited beta version was released to see if
 there was much
 interest. There has not been much interest.  I would say that
 maybe 6 or so
 people have expressed much interest in such a server.  So
 Geoff and I have
 not been pushing at it.

About the problem of interest, I think people search for add-ons only
when they need them (like myself...), so it's difficult to quickly
answer to a query are you interested It would be perhaps good to
create a web-page about add-on projects, not only ask people on the
forum (unfortunately I don't have time to read all the messages, and if
I had I would spend much because it's not my mother's language...)

Thank you for your support

Jean-Christophe Meylan

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-06 Thread Ian Wilson

On 10:58 AM 6/03/2002 +0100, Jean-Christophe Meylan said:

I'm not sure to right understand: do you explain that you could
distribute a simplified version of your add-on server? I don't need the
polygons, only the ability to flip components, tracks, pads and
multilayer vias.

Yes - a simplified version could be created but does not exist. :-(

..snip..
About the problem of interest, I think people search for add-ons only
when they need them (like myself...), so it's difficult to quickly
answer to a query are you interested It would be perhaps good to
create a web-page about add-on projects,

There is no centralized link to add-ons - Protel have a page of links but 
they do not include all the little free add-ons. There are a quite a 
few  add-ons in quite a few odd places.  A web-page linking to all of them 
would be good.

not only ask people on the
forum (unfortunately I don't have time to read all the messages, and if
I had I would spend much because it's not my mother's language...)

Jean-Christophe, your english is much better than my french.  I can 
understand you not reading all the posts; dealing in languages that you are 
not able to think in is very tiring.

I am sorry that there is no simple answer to your query.

Ian Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-06 Thread Jean-Christophe Meylan

 -Message d'origine-
 De: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Date: mercredi 6 mars 2002 11:27
  : Protel EDA Forum
 Objet: Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components  tracks?


 I'm not sure to right understand: do you explain that you could
 distribute a simplified version of your add-on server? I
 don't need the
 polygons, only the ability to flip components, tracks, pads and
 multilayer vias.

 Yes - a simplified version could be created but does not exist. :-(

What does it mean really? Are you ready to create this add-on?

 I had I would spend much because it's not my mother's language...)

 Jean-Christophe, your english is much better than my french.  I can
 understand you not reading all the posts; dealing in
 languages that you are
 not able to think in is very tiring.

Thank you, you are fair!

 I am sorry that there is no simple answer to your query.

Right, I am a little bit confused Should I forget about the idea to
get a solution to my query by an add-on and resolve it manually?

Jean-Christophe

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-06 Thread Ian Wilson


  I am sorry that there is no simple answer to your query.
 
Right, I am a little bit confused Should I forget about the idea to
get a solution to my query by an add-on and resolve it manually?

Jean-Christophe

Yes. Oui. Ya.

Bye for now,
Ian Wilson

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-05 Thread Dwight

Select them, click  hold (as if to move), and press L. This flips them to
the opposite side of the board.

 -Original Message-
 From: Jean-Christophe Meylan
 Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:14 AM

 What is the best methode to flip a part of the PCB (ie the tracks and
 components of a voltage regulator) from a side to an another? I select
 components and tracks, but I don't know how to flip the whole
 on the other side (either in X ou Y)...
 Jean-Christophe Meylan

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-05 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 12:21 PM 3/5/2002 -0800, Dwight wrote:
Select them, click  hold (as if to move), and press L. This flips them to
the opposite side of the board.

This does *not* work to accomplish the purpose of the original writer. Yes, 
the components are flipped to the other side, and top side track will be 
moved to the bottom, but the relationships will not be properly maintained. 
Track is just moved without being mirrored. A DIP-8 footprint was mirrored 
correctly, but the position of pin 1 (the component reference) became the 
position of pin 8; I imagine that the flip was centered on the extents.

They did *not* get this right. We have written extensively about inversion; 
it is necessary to have a layer chart to accomplish complete inversion, but 
the majority of applications would be accomplished simply by interchanging 
top and bottom layers while mirroring them, leaving other layers mirrored 
but not changed to new layers. That -- if needed -- could then be done 
manually one layer at a time. Usually it would not be needed.

Right now, when a mirror operation (X or Y keys) on a selection includes 
components, a warning comes up that one is about to mirror a footprint 
without changing the layer; it then suggests using the L key. But the L key 
will give an X mirror about the component centroid -- I think -- plus the 
layer shift. That's fine for an individual component, but not for anything 
more complex. If it is a union of two parts that is selected, the L key 
moves both parts to the other side of the board, but their relationship is 
what results from each part, individually, being mirrored, so the 
components no longer are in the same relative relationship.

Editing the layer attribute of a component performs the same operation as 
the L key.

This is what they should have done. When a component is flipped with the L 
key, it should have been mirrored on the cursor, not on the component 
centroid. Likewise, other selected components and primitives would be 
mirrored on the same reference and axis.

I do not know a way to flip a collection of components to the other side of 
the board, except for the server which Mr. Wilson et al have written.

What *ever* gave Protel the idea to mirror the parts on the centroid??? The 
result is that a footprint floating on the cursor, which normally is 
floating with the reference point at the cursor, suddenly has some 
*different* part of the footprint floating on the cursor. I cannot imagine 
an application for this!

It was *harder* to do what they did instead of simply mirroring on the cursor!
This should have been fixed long ago

Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-05 Thread Jean-Christophe Meylan

Thank you for your explanation Mr. Lomax, you describe exactly my
problem (sorry for my poor English' skill...)! Could you explain what is
the server written by Mr. Wilson et Al and where can we get it?

Jean-Christophe Meylan
_
 
Jean-Christophe Meylan
Valtronic SA
CH-1343 Les Charbonni res
Phone ++41 21 841 01 96, FAX ++41 21 841 01 65
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.valtronic.ch


 -Message d'origine-
 De: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Date: mardi 5 mars 2002 22:23
  : Protel EDA Forum
 Objet: Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components  tracks?


 At 12:21 PM 3/5/2002 -0800, Dwight wrote:
 Select them, click  hold (as if to move), and press L.
 This flips them to
 the opposite side of the board.

 This does *not* work to accomplish the purpose of the
 original writer. Yes,
 the components are flipped to the other side, and top side
 track will be
 moved to the bottom, but the relationships will not be
 properly maintained.
 Track is just moved without being mirrored. A DIP-8 footprint
 was mirrored
 correctly, but the position of pin 1 (the component
 reference) became the
 position of pin 8; I imagine that the flip was centered on
 the extents.

 They did *not* get this right. We have written extensively
 about inversion;
 it is necessary to have a layer chart to accomplish complete
 inversion, but
 the majority of applications would be accomplished simply by
 interchanging
 top and bottom layers while mirroring them, leaving other
 layers mirrored
 but not changed to new layers. That -- if needed -- could
 then be done
 manually one layer at a time. Usually it would not be needed.

 Right now, when a mirror operation (X or Y keys) on a
 selection includes
 components, a warning comes up that one is about to mirror a
 footprint
 without changing the layer; it then suggests using the L key.
 But the L key
 will give an X mirror about the component centroid -- I think
 -- plus the
 layer shift. That's fine for an individual component, but not
 for anything
 more complex. If it is a union of two parts that is selected,
 the L key
 moves both parts to the other side of the board, but their
 relationship is
 what results from each part, individually, being mirrored, so the
 components no longer are in the same relative relationship.

 Editing the layer attribute of a component performs the same
 operation as
 the L key.

 This is what they should have done. When a component is
 flipped with the L
 key, it should have been mirrored on the cursor, not on the component
 centroid. Likewise, other selected components and primitives would be
 mirrored on the same reference and axis.

 I do not know a way to flip a collection of components to the
 other side of
 the board, except for the server which Mr. Wilson et al have written.

 What *ever* gave Protel the idea to mirror the parts on the
 centroid??? The
 result is that a footprint floating on the cursor, which normally is
 floating with the reference point at the cursor, suddenly has some
 *different* part of the footprint floating on the cursor. I
 cannot imagine
 an application for this!

 It was *harder* to do what they did instead of simply
 mirroring on the cursor!
 This should have been fixed long ago

 Abdulrahman Lomax
 Easthampton, Massachusetts USA



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Re: [PEDA] Best methode to flip components tracks?

2002-03-05 Thread Ian Wilson

On 07:50 AM 6/03/2002 +0100, Jean-Christophe Meylan said:
Thank you for your explanation Mr. Lomax, you describe exactly my
problem (sorry for my poor English' skill...)! Could you explain what is
the server written by Mr. Wilson et Al and where can we get it?

Jean-Christophe Meylan


Jean-Christophe,

Geoff Harland and I were co-operating on a server that would invert a 
board.  We ran into problems that, though probably possible to solve would 
have taken way too much volunteer effort.  So we have let it pretty much 
stop. A time limited beta version was released to see if there was much 
interest. There has not been much interest.  I would say that maybe 6 or so 
people have expressed much interest in such a server.  So Geoff and I have 
not been pushing at it.

I suspect that we could fairly readily make a cut-down version of the 
server that just inverted the current selection - but it would only invert 
fairly standard entities like components, tracks, pads, vias etc.  Polygons 
were a little difficult from memory but I think we had them solved (but 
only if we cleared the undo stack).  Geoff and I were having discussions 
on the best method of dealing with fills - but I think these were solved as 
well.  Things like rules and layer stack-up, blind and buried vias etc 
would *not* be handled correctly - the user would need to patch these manually.

Bottom line - there is no invert server available now.  One could be made 
but I am not hugely interested until I see exactly what the next version of 
Protel provides - not much point in writing something that might be fixed 
in the next version.  I can't speak for Geoff H.

Sorry - this is not really a satisfactory answer but there is not really a 
lot of interest in add-on servers in the Protel community from what I can 
see.  A few people use available add-ons but not many, even the various 
free ones. So I would have to assume that the vast majority of Protel users 
think the facilities provided by the default instal are enough to not want 
the hassle of finding and then adding in add-ons.  That and the fact that 
the available add-ons are obviously not sufficiently killer apps.  So the 
return, either $ or the warm fuzzy feeling of a useful job done, is not 
there to really justify too much time spent.

Ian Wilson

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