Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-09 Thread Chris Lowe
any fool can write ISO procedures badly, for ISO to work well for a 
company then the procedures must be written in such a way as to help the 
company in doing its business rather than hindering it!  



Dennis Saputelli wrote:

i told my story before but ...
i had a board once put on hold and missed a major deadline
ISO shop
the called and said that my outside dimension 
string read 5.000 inches
but when they measured the drawn outline it measured 4.999 inches
i was out of the office
by the time the 'deviation exception' form was filled out and signed off
by them a whole week was lost

i pointed out that the routing tolerance was .005 inches anyway, why
did you put it on hold?
they said because we are ISO
i told them i was sorry to hear that
the same junk is going on with my sheet metal suppliers now

Dennis Saputelli

Yves Dubois wrote:
 

The problem with ISO is that it protects incompetent engineers and transform
them into suppose to be intelligent managers. Those people hide behind the
ISO monster that they create to keep there job.
On the long term When all businesses will be ISO (I hope not) what will
be the point. They will have to invent another system so that they can be
ISO.
May be we can start a naming contest for that futuristic new system:

here is a suggestion:

STUPID.

System
Tracking
Universal
Procedure
Integrated
Documentation
Not Bad  :)

Yves Dubois
PCB designer
Raytron LTD
Montreal
- Original Message -
From: Terry Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
   

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:08:09 -0400, you wrote:

 

The idea behind ISO9000 is just plain common sense (I put common in
quotes because common sense really isn't very common).  So why do we need
   

a
   

trendy business school graduate buzzword to invoke it?  Because the
   

trendy
   

business school graduates need to justify their existence and oversized
paychecks and golden parachutes somehow ;-)
   

The idea behind ISO9000 is self propagation.

It spreads down the supply chain like an infectious disease.

I wonder what percentage of companies would have ISO9000 were it not for
ISO9000 induced pressure from thier customers? Single digit is my guess.
Perhaps that is an indication of its real value.

Cheers, Terry.

 

 



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Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-09 Thread Robert . Gillatt

In favour of  GOOD documents how about;

Why
Are
No
Knowledge
Ever
Retained




   
 
  Chris Lowe   
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:   Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]  
  com cc: 
 
   Subject:  Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - 
ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
  09-Jun-2003 01:33
 
  PM   
 
  Please respond to
 
  Protel EDA Forum 
 
   
 
   
 




any fool can write ISO procedures badly, for ISO to work well for a
company then the procedures must be written in such a way as to help the
company in doing its business rather than hindering it!



Dennis Saputelli wrote:

i told my story before but ...
i had a board once put on hold and missed a major deadline
ISO shop

the called and said that my outside dimension
string read 5.000 inches
but when they measured the drawn outline it measured 4.999 inches
i was out of the office
by the time the 'deviation exception' form was filled out and signed off
by them a whole week was lost

i pointed out that the routing tolerance was .005 inches anyway, why
did you put it on hold?
they said because we are ISO
i told them i was sorry to hear that

the same junk is going on with my sheet metal suppliers now

Dennis Saputelli

Yves Dubois wrote:


The problem with ISO is that it protects incompetent engineers and
transform
them into suppose to be intelligent managers. Those people hide behind
the
ISO monster that they create to keep there job.

On the long term When all businesses will be ISO (I hope not) what
will
be the point. They will have to invent another system so that they can be
ISO.

May be we can start a naming contest for that futuristic new system:

here is a suggestion:

STUPID.

System
Tracking
Universal
Procedure
Integrated
Documentation

Not Bad  :)

Yves Dubois
PCB designer
Raytron LTD
Montreal

- Original Message -
From: Terry Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling



On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:08:09 -0400, you wrote:



The idea behind ISO9000 is just plain common sense (I put common in
quotes because common sense really isn't very common).  So why do we
need


a


trendy business school graduate buzzword to invoke it?  Because the


trendy


business school graduates need to justify their existence and oversized
paychecks and golden parachutes somehow ;-)


The idea behind ISO9000 is self propagation.

It spreads down the supply chain like an infectious disease.

I wonder what percentage of companies would have ISO9000 were it not for
ISO9000 induced pressure from thier customers? Single digit is my guess.

Perhaps that is an indication of its real value.


Cheers, Terry.














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Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-09 Thread Terry Harris
On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:33:37 +0100, Chris Lowe wrote:

any fool can write ISO procedures badly, for ISO to work well for a 
company then the procedures must be written in such a way as to help the 
company in doing its business rather than hindering it!  

Shame having a fool writing the procedures doesn't preclude ISO9000
approval. 

As a customer what does having ISO9000 approval tell me about a supplier? 

Sod all - but it is much easier to bullshit your way through your own
ISO9000 approval by deciding to only buy from ISO9000 approved suppliers. 


Cheers, Terry.


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Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-09 Thread Robert . Gillatt

I have to agree with you here. All the same I don't really care what the
managers do with our engineering docs so long as the documents are
effective and assist the work. At the same time, dealing with suppliers
whose service has been limp, I have been able to get a lot of leverage and
a hot line to the CEO by questioning ISO credentials. If no one questions
accreditation and pours scorn on the process then don't expect it to serve
you either. etc.




   
 
  Terry Harris 
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:   Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]  
  me.com  cc: 
 
   Subject:  Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - 
ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
  09-Jun-2003 04:36
 
  PM   
 
  Please respond to
 
  Protel EDA Forum 
 
   
 
   
 




On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:33:37 +0100, Chris Lowe wrote:

any fool can write ISO procedures badly, for ISO to work well for a
company then the procedures must be written in such a way as to help the
company in doing its business rather than hindering it!

Shame having a fool writing the procedures doesn't preclude ISO9000
approval.

As a customer what does having ISO9000 approval tell me about a supplier?

Sod all - but it is much easier to bullshit your way through your own
ISO9000 approval by deciding to only buy from ISO9000 approved suppliers.


Cheers, Terry.








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Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-06 Thread ajenkins
Amen

 -Original Message-
 From: Yves Dubois [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 3:56 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
 
 
 The problem with ISO is that it protects incompetent 
 engineers and transform
 them into suppose to be intelligent managers. Those people 
 hide behind the
 ISO monster that they create to keep there job.
 
 On the long term When all businesses will be ISO (I hope 
 not) what will
 be the point. They will have to invent another system so that 
 they can be
 ISO.
 
 May be we can start a naming contest for that futuristic new system:
 
 here is a suggestion:
 
 STUPID.
 
 System
 Tracking
 Universal
 Procedure
 Integrated
 Documentation
 
 Not Bad  :)
 
 
 Yves Dubois
 PCB designer
 Raytron LTD
 Montreal
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Terry Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
 
 
  On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:08:09 -0400, you wrote:
 
  The idea behind ISO9000 is just plain common sense (I 
 put common in
  quotes because common sense really isn't very common).  So 
 why do we need
 a
  trendy business school graduate buzzword to invoke it?  Because the
 trendy
  business school graduates need to justify their existence 
 and oversized
  paychecks and golden parachutes somehow ;-)
 
  The idea behind ISO9000 is self propagation.
 
  It spreads down the supply chain like an infectious disease.
 
  I wonder what percentage of companies would have ISO9000 
 were it not for
  ISO9000 induced pressure from thier customers? Single digit 
 is my guess.
 
  Perhaps that is an indication of its real value.
 
 
  Cheers, Terry.
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: [PEDA] Fw: A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling

2003-06-06 Thread Dennis Saputelli

i told my story before but ...
i had a board once put on hold and missed a major deadline
ISO shop

the called and said that my outside dimension 
string read 5.000 inches
but when they measured the drawn outline it measured 4.999 inches
i was out of the office
by the time the 'deviation exception' form was filled out and signed off
by them a whole week was lost

i pointed out that the routing tolerance was .005 inches anyway, why
did you put it on hold?
they said because we are ISO
i told them i was sorry to hear that

the same junk is going on with my sheet metal suppliers now

Dennis Saputelli

Yves Dubois wrote:
 
 The problem with ISO is that it protects incompetent engineers and transform
 them into suppose to be intelligent managers. Those people hide behind the
 ISO monster that they create to keep there job.
 
 On the long term When all businesses will be ISO (I hope not) what will
 be the point. They will have to invent another system so that they can be
 ISO.
 
 May be we can start a naming contest for that futuristic new system:
 
 here is a suggestion:
 
 STUPID.
 
 System
 Tracking
 Universal
 Procedure
 Integrated
 Documentation
 
 Not Bad  :)
 
 Yves Dubois
 PCB designer
 Raytron LTD
 Montreal
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Terry Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] A little OT - ISO9000 was :PCB labelling
 
  On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:08:09 -0400, you wrote:
 
  The idea behind ISO9000 is just plain common sense (I put common in
  quotes because common sense really isn't very common).  So why do we need
 a
  trendy business school graduate buzzword to invoke it?  Because the
 trendy
  business school graduates need to justify their existence and oversized
  paychecks and golden parachutes somehow ;-)
 
  The idea behind ISO9000 is self propagation.
 
  It spreads down the supply chain like an infectious disease.
 
  I wonder what percentage of companies would have ISO9000 were it not for
  ISO9000 induced pressure from thier customers? Single digit is my guess.
 
  Perhaps that is an indication of its real value.
 
 
  Cheers, Terry.
 

-- 
Dennis Saputelli

  = send only plain text please! - no HTML ==
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com  
2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480
San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003


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