Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Tom While it may seem inappropriate to post information about your company's capabilities on this forum, I wish to thank you for posting this information. This type of information helps keep us all abreast on what is happening in the industry. Thank you for the enlightment. Mike Reagan C.I.D. EDSI -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 6:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Tom, Why is your company including Protel in its library offerings? Are you detecting a rising presence in the market or what? Protel has hardly been considered a significant player in the US in the past. Stronger in Aust/NZ and Europe and some fairly good penetration in Asia I think (not sure about what percentage is legit). Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
According to what statistical method? -Original Message- From: Tom Hausherr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:09 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Ian, We took a poll and Protel is number two in worldwide installations (behind PADS). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351
OK, that's cool but the Z height only extrudes to one height, what's great about the additional way Protel DXP2004 handles it, in addition to the Z height option, is that you can add 3D models to a Protel library (from Molex for example or from your own 3D CAD), then map the proper 3D model to your library part, then when you design your board you can view, in Protel DXP2004, the 3D model. Then you can export an IGES file of this model into your 3D CAD, assuming it is capable of taking in IGES correctly. I know from previous work that you can use a 3rd party to do this with PADS to SolidWorks, and also you can use the so-called Pro/E export (EDIF really) option ($) of PADS to send info to Pro/E (or any capable of EDIF import) but they have to have models of each part and you have to map it in the EDIF file, not simple and straightforward like the way Protel is doing it. There is no capability in PADS of mapping the correct 3D model to your parts, although perhaps you can make an attribute for the 3D model and generate a file using VBasic to help. BTW, this is another advantage of PADS, it's a VBA unlike Protel DXP and to set the record straight, ( so others don't choke) I still think Protel is inefficient compared to other layout/schematic entry, but I am impressed with how they have handled the export to 3D CAD. Now if they can add a similiar 3D CAD import There are other nice things too about DXP2004, but on the whole it is not a highly productive tool compared to others IMO. it is the cheapest viable option though. So I guess it would be nice if for each part that has a IPC footprint, there would be a 3D model and somebody somewhere is collecting all these. PH From: Tom Hausherr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:34 -0700 PH, Yes, the IPC-7351 specification is starting the ball rolling on a 3D Modeling standard. What PCB Libraries has done to introduce this is making a dedicated layer to illustrate the Maximum Component Outline with a 1 micron line that is used for IDF export. The trick to this is to not put anything else on that dedicated layer. No polarity marking, no text, no multiple lines, just a single Closed Polygon. Taking it to the next level, the IPC-2581 will illustrate CAD library data with the land pattern and the physical component superimposed. So if you CAD tool has IPC-2581 import and 3D modeling, your new CAD library will contain both entities. This needs to be done to insure correct land pattern data from the beginning of the PCB design process and not preforming the current land pattern verification before you go into fabrication. PCB Libraries is developing a backward land pattern calculator called IPC-7351 LandCheck. You import your CAD data ASCII format into this program. Then you can select any part that you want to check and select a component family for the part. A menu and a browser / viewer will appear and allows you to enter the basic component dimensional data. The program instantly tells you whether the land pattern meets IPC-7351 specification and if not provides you a report that will inform you on what is wrong. This will also check component height. If the Height that you entered from the datasheet does not match the Geometry Height built into the land pattern an warning will occur. This program is fully funtional for PADS right now and PCB Libraries is giving away free copies to PADS Users who register for the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. In the near future the IPC-7351 LandCheck will import Protel data and it certianly will import IPC-2581 data. The LandCheck program was originally intended to verify your old legacy libraries to allow you to clean them up to meet the IPC-7351 specification. Tom H -Original Message- From: Protel Hell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Tom, Is anything being done to standardize 3D modeling for PCB layout? One thing I think Altium leads the pack on is closing the loop to mechanical layout (3D modeling). Protel is similar to PADS with the Z height but they have gone one better, you can map a 3D model to your library part so that you can export an IGES file that can be imported in your 3D modeling software. Unlike PADS it is not an cost add on, it comes standard with DXP2004. (DXP was extra $) So all those vendors that have models available can be used directly by Protel. You can view a model of the pcb assembly and print in Protel. very impressive. Sure, this can be done too on the mechanical end, but it works so much nicer when the PCB layout person specs the model. Nice to have one person make sure the schematic symbol, layout footprint, and 3D model are all mapped correctly. I guess what I'm wondering is if anybody is collecting 3D models of parts? PH
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Bill, I just talked to Mentor Graphics PADS division and they say that since the 1st release of PADS Software in 1985 they have logged 85,000 licenses. PowerLogic (schematic) and PowerPCB (layout) are separate licenses. There are currently 18,000 PADS-PowerPCB seats on yearly maintenance. It's my personal guess that there are about 35,000 PADS-PowerPCB seats in use. There are many people using old licenses that are not on yearly maintenance due to financial hardships over the past 4 years. Tom Tom Hausherr PCB Libraries CEO, Director of Technology 858.592.4826 Phone 847.745.0450 Fax E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.PCBLibraries.com http://www.PCBYellowPages.com -Original Message- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 9:50 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. I wonder just how many licensed seats there are of Protel in the world is that published anywhere? Also I wonder if Pads has published the same info? I didn't participate in the poll so it's at least off by one. LOL... I would venture to say Protel may have more seats that Pads... but they are mostly not in the Southwest of the U.S. How about it Altium... how many active seats of Protel are there? Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. According to what statistical method? -Original Message- From: Tom Hausherr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:09 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Ian, We took a poll and Protel is number two in worldwide installations (behind PADS). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Bill Or the seats could be like the ones I have. I have 2 active seats of my own. For each client that I have who specifies particular tools, I require them to supply me with a licensed seat of the tools (same version) as they use. For P99SE that totals 7. This is actually in case I ever dump Protel myself and they proceed to a newer version than I have. They have to provide their own as it would not be fair to have one client pay for a seat and let the others use it for free :-) So out of total 9 seats, only 2 are ever active, hope that ratio is not across the board. Hope the other 7 did not take part in the poll :-) and say yes... John -Original Message- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:50 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. I wonder just how many licensed seats there are of Protel in the world is that published anywhere? Also I wonder if Pads has published the same info? I didn't participate in the poll so it's at least off by one. LOL... I would venture to say Protel may have more seats that Pads... but they are mostly not in the Southwest of the U.S. How about it Altium... how many active seats of Protel are there? Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. According to what statistical method? -Original Message- From: Tom Hausherr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:09 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Ian, We took a poll and Protel is number two in worldwide installations (behind PADS). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Hi Bill, On a flyer I got from Altium about Jan, it said there were over 13,000 DXP users. Maybe they should have a warning on the pack :P Darren Moore -Original Message- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I wonder just how many licensed seats there are of Protel in the world is that published anywhere? Also I wonder if Pads has published the same info? I didn't participate in the poll so it's at least off by one. LOL... I would venture to say Protel may have more seats that Pads... but they are mostly not in the Southwest of the U.S. How about it Altium... how many active seats of Protel are there? Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Brian Guralnick wrote: Where can I get info on the IPC-2581 IPC-7351 standards? IPC-7351 is not released yet. You can get latest draft from: http://www.ipc.org/committeedetail.asp?Committee=1-13 IPC-2581 is released and can be acquired from: http://webstds.ipc.org/2581/2581.htm Indrek -- Indrek Rebane | Borthwick-Pignon Electronics Engineer|Tartu Science Park Phone: (+372) 7 302 641 | Riia 185, 51014 Tartu Fax: (+372) 7 383 041 | Estonia [EMAIL PROTECTED]| www.bps.co.ee * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Brian, You can get IPC-2581 Neutral CAD database format from www.ipc.org. You can get IPC-7351 information from several places. http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?pageid=6.4.4.3 Or you can download many documents from www.PCBLibraries.com Download Center Documents section. You can also get a free IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator (called - IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard) by registering on the Main page of PCBLibraries.com. Over the past 3 1/2 years PCB Libraries has voluntarily helped IPC develop the IPC-7351 specification and the new Land Pattern Calculator. The IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator can export PADS ASCII data which can be imported into Protel. PCB Libraries will soon release 8,000 free Protel Library parts that were built by the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. The first true Standard Software Library (not built by humans but by a software program). Soon there will be a direct Protel interface in the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. And you can get this software program for free. http://www.pcblibraries.com/NWiz-Demo Tom H -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 10:56 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Where can I get info on the IPC-2581 IPC-7351 standards? _ Brian Guralnick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Tom, Is anything being done to standardize 3D modeling for PCB layout? One thing I think Altium leads the pack on is closing the loop to mechanical layout (3D modeling). Protel is similar to PADS with the Z height but they have gone one better, you can map a 3D model to your library part so that you can export an IGES file that can be imported in your 3D modeling software. Unlike PADS it is not an cost add on, it comes standard with DXP2004. (DXP was extra $) So all those vendors that have models available can be used directly by Protel. You can view a model of the pcb assembly and print in Protel. very impressive. Sure, this can be done too on the mechanical end, but it works so much nicer when the PCB layout person specs the model. Nice to have one person make sure the schematic symbol, layout footprint, and 3D model are all mapped correctly. I guess what I'm wondering is if anybody is collecting 3D models of parts? PH From: Tom Hausherr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:01:21 -0700 Brian, You can get IPC-2581 Neutral CAD database format from www.ipc.org. You can get IPC-7351 information from several places. http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?pageid=6.4.4.3 Or you can download many documents from www.PCBLibraries.com Download Center Documents section. You can also get a free IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator (called - IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard) by registering on the Main page of PCBLibraries.com. Over the past 3 1/2 years PCB Libraries has voluntarily helped IPC develop the IPC-7351 specification and the new Land Pattern Calculator. The IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator can export PADS ASCII data which can be imported into Protel. PCB Libraries will soon release 8,000 free Protel Library parts that were built by the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. The first true Standard Software Library (not built by humans but by a software program). Soon there will be a direct Protel interface in the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. And you can get this software program for free. http://www.pcblibraries.com/NWiz-Demo Tom H -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 10:56 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Where can I get info on the IPC-2581 IPC-7351 standards? _ Brian Guralnick _ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
PH- We review all of our boards in 3D (Unigraphics). It's usually a PITA with either myself extruding each part one by one, or the mech engineer doing it and cursing me for not giving him better models. But, it's one of those things that need to be done. Just wish it was more streamlined. Bruce Northrop -Original Message- From: Protel Hell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Tom, Is anything being done to standardize 3D modeling for PCB layout? One thing I think Altium leads the pack on is closing the loop to mechanical layout (3D modeling). Protel is similar to PADS with the Z height but they have gone one better, you can map a 3D model to your library part so that you can export an IGES file that can be imported in your 3D modeling software. Unlike PADS it is not an cost add on, it comes standard with DXP2004. (DXP was extra $) So all those vendors that have models available can be used directly by Protel. You can view a model of the pcb assembly and print in Protel. very impressive. Sure, this can be done too on the mechanical end, but it works so much nicer when the PCB layout person specs the model. Nice to have one person make sure the schematic symbol, layout footprint, and 3D model are all mapped correctly. I guess what I'm wondering is if anybody is collecting 3D models of parts? PH From: Tom Hausherr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:01:21 -0700 Brian, You can get IPC-2581 Neutral CAD database format from www.ipc.org. You can get IPC-7351 information from several places. http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?pageid=6.4.4.3 Or you can download many documents from www.PCBLibraries.com Download Center Documents section. You can also get a free IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator (called - IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard) by registering on the Main page of PCBLibraries.com. Over the past 3 1/2 years PCB Libraries has voluntarily helped IPC develop the IPC-7351 specification and the new Land Pattern Calculator. The IPC-7351 Land Pattern Calculator can export PADS ASCII data which can be imported into Protel. PCB Libraries will soon release 8,000 free Protel Library parts that were built by the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. The first true Standard Software Library (not built by humans but by a software program). Soon there will be a direct Protel interface in the IPC-7351 Navigator Wizard. And you can get this software program for free. http://www.pcblibraries.com/NWiz-Demo Tom H -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 10:56 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Where can I get info on the IPC-2581 IPC-7351 standards? _ Brian Guralnick _ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Tom, Why is your company including Protel in its library offerings? Are you detecting a rising presence in the market or what? Protel has hardly been considered a significant player in the US in the past. Stronger in Aust/NZ and Europe and some fairly good penetration in Asia I think (not sure about what percentage is legit). Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351.
Ian, We took a poll and Protel is number two in worldwide installations (behind PADS). We have no information if Protel is gaining or losing seats, we just know they are the second most popular CAD tool in the EDA industry. I just wish they would show up at more trade shows and get more exposure. The industry needs competition. When you're working with the World Standards organizations is best to cover to multitudes and not the big guys who can afford to purchase $100,000 workstations (they are the minority). Tom H -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:58 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] IPC-2581 IPC-7351. Tom, Why is your company including Protel in its library offerings? Are you detecting a rising presence in the market or what? Protel has hardly been considered a significant player in the US in the past. Stronger in Aust/NZ and Europe and some fairly good penetration in Asia I think (not sure about what percentage is legit). Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
