Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-21 Thread Choong Keat Yian
Leo,i've seen it before.In this regars,Protel 99SE is not far difference from 2.8 but 
nevertheless the same mode is more stable in 2.8 and more of a annoyance for 99se,the 
way i do it now is to forgone the usage of this function in 99se,thats the way i live 
with it.

Choong


Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square one.

Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither 
does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.

Which brings me to these questions:
Did I miss a setting somewhere?
Did anyone see this before?
Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.


Leo Potjewijd
hardware designer
IE Keyprocessor bv.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+31 20 4620700


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-21 Thread Choong Keat Yian
Here we are, many things about Protel's legacy so if i were to have no choice,then i 
would get into Linux and download OpenSource pcb software which is already in working 
version that is producing finished assembled SMD board by the software author,there is 
at least 3 O/source pcb design package on Linux Sourceforge.The fact for us here is 
that with the kind of corparate digital world we live in,and in addition to sucking 
but expansive package,its time to  use open source PCB and EDA tools and even thought 
i am a OrCAD 9.2 user,i have my mind set on learning of the opew source EDA tools from 
Linux when i got my own broadband.

Choong


Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now, maybe your CEO is a cheapskate and perhaps numerous other expletives.
But tell your interns to get creative.  Maybe you have some old PCs laying
around that can be salvaged for their use?  If you can't get new Microsoft
licenses, maybe a Linux distro could be used?  It depends on what work the
interns are doing, of course.  If they are doing spreadsheet grunt work or
something like that, OpenOffice (free) can do just about everything Excel
can.  If they are doing PCB design, they gotta have Windows to run Protel
on.

The best way to get rid of your boss is to make him look good so he will be
promoted away from you...

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-21 Thread Choong Keat Yian
You reflex on me very too Raven,i started out as a TV repairman after school,then get 
into audio design especially loudspeaker and it is from here that i feel the need to 
learn CAD system for able to produce products which will keep me alive,then things got 
better of me Cad wise and i landed a job in speaker design dept for this company this 
is the reason that i am here in this forum because our company use Protel and me 
read,think and then experiementing alot in office paid time during the brief in 
assignment and the thing is that,i am a high school drop out,and i dont have a degree 
to because i think it all depend on who you work with ,where you live region wise and 
of course,come luck.


Choong



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I am very fortunate.  I was a technician until one of the engineers noticed that I 
learned very quickly.  He brought me into the engineering department and I've been 
paid while I've learned all of it:  circuit design, PCB layout, machine code, C, the 
old design software (an old program called DCCADD), and now the new.  I manage to be 
productive, and I have to study a lot on my off time, but I still spend quite a lot 
of time reading, learning, and experimenting.  I still have years to go, but they've 
been very good to me in this respect.  I am not an engineer yet, but I learn more 
every day.  How I managed this (without a degree) in an economy where degreed 
engineers are taking jobs as technicians and assemblers I don't know--but I count my 
blessings every day.

The learning curve has been very steep on Protel.  Even more so than design 
fundamentals have been.  If I had to learn it on my own time, and especially if I had 
to pay for it myself, I would probably have gone with Eaglesoft.  I just can't 
justify a personal expense of $8,000 for software that is as quirky as this is.

Just a Newbie's opinion,
Michael Badillo
Engineering Technician


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-21 Thread Choong Keat Yian
Yes,for the standard package, Capture CIS and Smartroute is not including because of 
its lowered price,but the whole package as  you mentioned do include everything,from 
standard route to Smartroute which i am very happy to use with.Imagine me testing a 
Protel 2.8 sample files of high density 2 layer and complete the job in less than 15 
sec on a P4/2.4 GHZ machine.There is also many inter translation in OrCAD Layout which 
is one of the reaso i can use Protel now.

Choong


Jim Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ian

Orcad just had a sale with Capture, Pspice, and Layout for $10,000. I 
believe that included an autorouter. The regular price was $22,000.

Jim Walker
Walker Power Design, Inc.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread John A. Ross
 -Original Message-
 From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:15 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
 At 07:02 AM 9/19/2003, John A. Ross [Design] wrote:
 But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis 
 etc I think 
 it would be an even enough score (Autorouter excluded) as the 2 
 applications have the same core abilities, but each of them offers 
 different benifets in certain areas depending on the board design 
 itself.
 
 This is, in fact, not an even score, unless you have already 
 factored in 
 price -- or you bought Pads when they had their brief 
 Kill-Protel-Accel 
 fling. I did, and I returned it when I found that the 
 software license 
 provided that they could withdraw the license if you didn't 
 keep up on 
 maintenance

I was comparing features and individual benefits. Not cost

New Pads Designer suites as now offered under the MG banner starting at
$4000 USD, so in many respects you pay for what you use, not forced into
a bundle.

I am happy to say my Pads maintenance for Plogic/PPCB/Blaze is actually
less than $800 USD per year, the support from the VAR is really good,
not that I have had to use it much, the people on the pads list server
are also pretty cool if needed, and the s/w is quite intuitive in many
respects, this is also the case for DXP.

If you look to the user driven efforts for improvements in PPCB they are
pretty passionate about their tools, and very well co-ordinated as a
user group.

Software licensing is always an icky issue. Especially as you pointed
out, that politics dictate strange license conditions. MG license
conditions are now worse, prohibiting use of the license outside xx
miles of the registered address and so on When will their paranoia
end.

The options I have in PPCB suits my needs. By my estimate it would take
me many years to meet the cost of a single DXP license excluding any
version upgrades for DXP in that time.

To date for ROI, over the past 2 years my Pads seat has cost me $1600
USD, the P99SE seat with DXP upgrade has cost me $6-8k or so at the
beginning of 2002, cannot remember exactly, but I assume there will be a
major version upgrade within the next 12 months as Altium will need some
form of revenue stream, upgrade costs, based on previous prices $3-4k a
time?

The fixed software assurance type cost model is also available from
Altium at about $2k USD per year I believe.

So to be fair I reckon cost wise they are pretty even if looked at over
time on the same maintenance model.

Ian mentioned this in another post about what features users would pay
extra for, and he has a point, but as Altiums 'bundled' suite model has
worked well for so long I do not think a change would lie well with the
users. It would be cool if DXP was modular priced, some users asked for
this before, perhaps this is what spawned nVisage as a separate product.

 It would be surprising indeed if PADS were not stronger than 
 Protel in at 
 least some areas.

I could probably list some 'extras' in DXP not present in my Pads suite
and vice versa and it really would come out even.

As I have already said, I have a choice after taking my design to
netlist and I will pick the best tool for the job at that point based on
the board technology in use. 

I do have overheads though as I have to maintain the same libraries and
names/naming conventions in 2 different library types.

To date I have not seen an EDA suite that is all things to all people
for all jobs. 

I just use what I need to get the job done, just like everyone else :-)

John



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Ian Wilson
On 08:40 PM 19/09/2003, John A. Ross [Design] said:
 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:41 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 ..snip.. I deleted a whole lot of more contentious stuff,
 enough grenades
 for today.
Ian

My comments were not intended to be 'grenades' at you, just that I did
not want to say 'I do not like it', without a little bit more info on
situation  user.


Sorry John, I was not clear enough - I was about to lob some grenades and 
then thought better of it.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Ian Wilson
On 10:50 PM 19/09/2003, Robert M. Wolfe said:
John,
Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
I would state they not in the same ballpark,
and quite frankly not in the same universe.
Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition router
is best I've ever seen.
Bob Wolfe
I was not saying that they were comparable products, this was more a 
comment about the state of the market as opposed to a comment on the 
capabilities of the software.

I am very interested in this but the numbers seem hard to come by.  Can 
anyone give a purchase and annual cost for other packages that include Sch 
capture, PCB, autorouter and simulation?  It may be instructive to try to 
set up some sort of table to collate this stuff.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Hamid A. Wasti
Ian Wilson wrote:

I am very interested in this but the numbers seem hard to come by.  
Can anyone give a purchase and annual cost for other packages that 
include Sch capture, PCB, autorouter and simulation?  It may be 
instructive to try to set up some sort of table to collate this stuff.
When I got fed up enough with Altium, I looked into PADS (from Mentor 
Graphics).  I was quoted several packages/options, ranging from US$3,500 
(basic PCB  schematic) to $15,000 (simulation, autorouter and lots of 
other stuff).  The maintenance was generally 15% of the purchase price.

What really impressed me about PADS was the VAR support.  The VAR was an 
independent agent who was local and had a huge incentive to keep me 
happy for his own long term prosperity.  He actually knew how to use the 
software and was willing to come onsite and do hands on training.  In 
contrast, Altium's approach was we do not have the manpower to train 
Even if you could convince them to send someone onsite, the person was 
going to strictly follow the agenda of their training class and was not 
going to do anything besides that.  To me, that is huge red flag.  It 
appears that the trainer actually does not use the system or know much 
about it. They are just trained monkeys reciting the training syllabus 
and hitting the right buttons at the right time.

Even though I have forked over the $2K to buy DXP (I would not insult 
anyone's intelligence by calling it an upgrade), I have decided to stick 
with 99SE.  The Altium sales person's claim that there is virtually no 
learning curve and that most people are as proficient in DXP as they are 
in 99SE within one week had a lot to do with the decision.  I also 
really wanted a few feature, like support for dual monitors and 
selection filters.  However, these are all nice to have and not must 
have.  However, when I got into it, I found that there were many new 
features that were a severe detriment to my productivity.  The global 
edits are a big one.  I use global editing all the time in 99SE and 
while it is not as powerful as it is in DXP, it is very quickly 
accessible and handy.  I can edit a part, with two or 3 mouse clicks and 
a few keystrokes, I can do what I want and I am done.  Doing the same in 
DXP takes a lot more.  A hell of a lot more in may cases.

As I look back over my 8 years of working with Protel, I realize that 
they have a very consistent track record of putting out complete crap 
every other release.  While I have always upgraded to every new version 
going back to version 2.8, I have only actually used half of them.  Some 
of the great features that have prevented me from using the 
intermediate releases have included a lack of undo button in the library 
editor (we found that no one used it so we did not implement it), the 
inability to change anything about a footprint after it was placed on 
the PCB (enforcing good design practices), the crazy DDB database (again 
enforcing good design practices) and everyone's all time favorite: 
frequent crashes.  While I continue to do all my work in 99SE, I am 
forced to use DXP because I am mentoring a friend who does not have 
access to any other package besides DXP.  Therefore I get to use DXP 
frequently enough to really get to dislike it from hands on use rather 
than hearsay.

If I had to endure the learning curve of learning a new package, I would 
most probably opt for PADS, in a large part due to the support available 
through VARs.  I have let Altium know that and they do not seem to care.

Hamid



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Choong Keat Yian
Hey dont leave me out for this ,but there is a problem of our differences in computer 
specs for this scheme to work.I am not religious seing that i am still hear give that 
i dont like Protel which i have tested throughtly,so now OrCAD Layout 9.2 is doing my 
Protel PCB file completely.

Btw,i wish someone can send me his or her Protel based non-urgent work as part of my 
love for pcb work,all for the sake of exercise given that i do use both system,so if 
anyone wish to send me his work i will send back the Autorouted files back to him in 
Protel format for free and then there is a new horizon for all this discussion,what do 
ya think?

Choong

John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Snipped

  I would love to get together, face to face, computer to
  computer with a
  very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are
  non-religious in
  their approach to computer software, and go through a
  detailed end-to-end
  design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.
  The warts of
  each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it
 will ever
  happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn
  some money
  sometime.


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Robert M. Wolfe
Steve,
I would check it out at Mentor Graphics site,
I do know just before Mentor bought VeriBest,
VeriBest had made the router a standalone 
router to be able to sell it as such. I believe Mentor
kept it that way to compete against Specctra.
They at least would have had to do this to 
interface to their own BoardStation product.
But IMHO Expedition router is still better than
Specctra. Not sure about cost diff though.
Not sure is Protel would interface to it.

Bob

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Wiseman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 19/09/2003 13:50:25, Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  but Expedition router is best I've ever seen.
 
 Does that include things like Specctra? Will it bolt up to Protel in 
 any useful way?
 (Since Situs seems doomed to never get good enough, and we 
 really can't justify another Specctra seat, an alternative, even if 
 only for simpler jobs, is of interest). 
 (Do you hear this, Protel? - money that could be yours is vanishing 
 into the sunset...)
 
 Steve
 
 
 
 
 
 



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Robert M. Wolfe
John,
I hear ya, I don't have the luxury of having another
seat of something with autorouting that works at the
moment. Right now our fornt end is Orcad so I too
have a backannotation situation to deal with too.
I really wished Protel had released the autorouter
I hoped it would be. As it is now I really can't use it
for much.
Bob


- Original Message - 
From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 -Original Message-
 From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:50 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 John,
 Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
 PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
 I would state they not in the same ballpark,
 and quite frankly not in the same universe.
 Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition 
 router is best I've ever seen. 

Bob

I thought that's what I politely said :-)

 For one the Autorouter in Pads works,

It is Blaze I use here, and I am sure it has its faults too, they are
pretty well noted on the pads list server. I have heard good things
about the expedition router although never seen it in action.

In fact it is mostly for boards I need autoroute functionality on that I
use Pads. For final tweaking it can end up being imported back to Protel
layout although this process would be much nicer to use, if the DXP
interface would support the latest Pads formats.

I am quite used to a workflow where I use Protel as the font end and
transfer to Pads or Protel for layout as the board technology demands. 

I of course sacrifice a back annotation facility from Pads, but as long
as the ECO can be documented, I do not mind introducing the ECO from SCH
end and forward annotating the changes.

If I can get the front end of DXP to have a real nice interface to Pads
layout as well as DXP layout I would be happy at that, then it would
make no difference or interest to me if Situs ever worked.

The Situs issue is way down my wish list of things I would like to
change, or have in DXP.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  

 - Original Message - 
 From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:40 AM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
  
  Snipped
 
  I would love to get together, face to face, computer to
  computer with a 
  very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are 
  non-religious in 
  their approach to computer software, and go through a 
  detailed end-to-end 
  design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  
  The warts of 
  each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it 
 will ever 
  happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn 
  some money 
  sometime.
 
 I am a regular Pads user, maybe not a proficient one, but I 
 have had a copy on my desk for much longer than I have had Protel. 
 
 But good luck in finding a 'non' religious Pads User, they 
 tend to be die-hards to the end. Most of the Protel based 
 designs I send to Asia end up in Pads format anyway at some point. 
 
 I use both layout tools simply because the layout tools 
 within 99SE/DXP have different abilities to Pads.
 
 For one the Autorouter in Pads works, it supports jumper 
 insrtion correctly, it had way better PCB rules support than 
 99SE, and the rules UI is much more intuative than DXP.
 
 But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis etc 
 I think it would be an even enough score (Autorouter 
 excluded) as the 2 applications have the same core abilities, 
 but each of them offers different benifets in certain areas 
 depending on the board design itself.
 
 I could not preceive life, without having both tools at my disposal.
 
 Best Regards
 
 John A. Ross
 
 RSD Communications ltd
 Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
 ==  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-20 Thread Jim Walker
Ian

Orcad just had a sale with Capture, Pspice, and Layout for $10,000. I 
believe that included an autorouter. The regular price was $22,000.

Jim Walker
Walker Power Design, Inc.
Ian Wilson wrote:
On 10:50 PM 19/09/2003, Robert M. Wolfe said:

John,
Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
I would state they not in the same ballpark,
and quite frankly not in the same universe.
Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition router
is best I've ever seen.
Bob Wolfe


I was not saying that they were comparable products, this was more a 
comment about the state of the market as opposed to a comment on the 
capabilities of the software.

I am very interested in this but the numbers seem hard to come by.  Can 
anyone give a purchase and annual cost for other packages that include 
Sch capture, PCB, autorouter and simulation?  It may be instructive to 
try to set up some sort of table to collate this stuff.

Ian





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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread John A. Ross [Design]
 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:41 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 ..snip.. I deleted a whole lot of more contentious stuff, 
 enough grenades 
 for today.

Ian

My comments were not intended to be 'grenades' at you, just that I did
not want to say 'I do not like it', without a little bit more info on
situation  user. 

Especially the user aspect, as I do believe the mental disciplines
exerted by the individual user, and there core skills base used by the
user daily, will make some users more perceptive of the change, than
others.

I do not mean that in a derogatory fashion, but users who are used to
writing software as part of their core skills, i.e not in a split
discipline environment, will warm to the system easier than others. At
least Altium did not use !Comp or =Comp or other shorthand.

Yes I can be a little hard on myself from time to time when I see my
efforts only making minimal gain / progress :-) 

I am not a vain person and do not mind admitting when I am struggling
with a particular concept, understanding something or just need help. I
made the honest admission that I am struggling with the query system as
a productive tool as I believe other users may feel the same, they just
have not admitted it.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  

 
 



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread John A. Ross [Design]
 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:47 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 I think some of you are thinking I am supporting Altium in 
 this.  I try to 
 be honest, analytical and pragmatic, maybe not always successfully.

I do not think anyone who has read you public criticisms directed at
Altium think that.

You know what you want from the tools, you ask for it, you present the
issues logically and lobby for it. 

But you will also support the changes and try to help others with it,
which for people with a narrow view, might seem like you are aligned
with Altium.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  





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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread John A. Ross [Design]
 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:40 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 Snipped

 I would love to get together, face to face, computer to 
 computer with a 
 very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are 
 non-religious in 
 their approach to computer software, and go through a 
 detailed end-to-end 
 design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  
 The warts of 
 each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it will ever 
 happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn 
 some money 
 sometime.

I am a regular Pads user, maybe not a proficient one, but I have had a
copy on my desk for much longer than I have had Protel. 

But good luck in finding a 'non' religious Pads User, they tend to be
die-hards to the end. Most of the Protel based designs I send to Asia
end up in Pads format anyway at some point. 

I use both layout tools simply because the layout tools within 99SE/DXP
have different abilities to Pads.

For one the Autorouter in Pads works, it supports jumper insrtion
correctly, it had way better PCB rules support than 99SE, and the rules
UI is much more intuative than DXP.

But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis etc I think it
would be an even enough score (Autorouter excluded) as the 2
applications have the same core abilities, but each of them offers
different benifets in certain areas depending on the board design
itself.

I could not preceive life, without having both tools at my disposal.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  







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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread Robert M. Wolfe
John,
Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
I would state they not in the same ballpark,
and quite frankly not in the same universe.
Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition router
is best I've ever seen.
Bob Wolfe



- Original Message - 
From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:40 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 Snipped

 I would love to get together, face to face, computer to 
 computer with a 
 very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are 
 non-religious in 
 their approach to computer software, and go through a 
 detailed end-to-end 
 design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  
 The warts of 
 each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it will ever 
 happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn 
 some money 
 sometime.

I am a regular Pads user, maybe not a proficient one, but I have had a
copy on my desk for much longer than I have had Protel. 

But good luck in finding a 'non' religious Pads User, they tend to be
die-hards to the end. Most of the Protel based designs I send to Asia
end up in Pads format anyway at some point. 

I use both layout tools simply because the layout tools within 99SE/DXP
have different abilities to Pads.

For one the Autorouter in Pads works, it supports jumper insrtion
correctly, it had way better PCB rules support than 99SE, and the rules
UI is much more intuative than DXP.

But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis etc I think it
would be an even enough score (Autorouter excluded) as the 2
applications have the same core abilities, but each of them offers
different benifets in certain areas depending on the board design
itself.

I could not preceive life, without having both tools at my disposal.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  









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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread Steve Wiseman
19/09/2003 13:50:25, Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 but Expedition router is best I've ever seen.

Does that include things like Specctra? Will it bolt up to Protel in 
any useful way?
(Since Situs seems doomed to never get good enough, and we 
really can't justify another Specctra seat, an alternative, even if 
only for simpler jobs, is of interest). 
(Do you hear this, Protel? - money that could be yours is vanishing 
into the sunset...)

Steve






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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread John A. Ross [Design]
 -Original Message-
 From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:50 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 John,
 Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
 PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
 I would state they not in the same ballpark,
 and quite frankly not in the same universe.
 Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition 
 router is best I've ever seen. 

Bob

I thought that's what I politely said :-)

 For one the Autorouter in Pads works,

It is Blaze I use here, and I am sure it has its faults too, they are
pretty well noted on the pads list server. I have heard good things
about the expedition router although never seen it in action.

In fact it is mostly for boards I need autoroute functionality on that I
use Pads. For final tweaking it can end up being imported back to Protel
layout although this process would be much nicer to use, if the DXP
interface would support the latest Pads formats.

I am quite used to a workflow where I use Protel as the font end and
transfer to Pads or Protel for layout as the board technology demands. 

I of course sacrifice a back annotation facility from Pads, but as long
as the ECO can be documented, I do not mind introducing the ECO from SCH
end and forward annotating the changes.

If I can get the front end of DXP to have a real nice interface to Pads
layout as well as DXP layout I would be happy at that, then it would
make no difference or interest to me if Situs ever worked.

The Situs issue is way down my wish list of things I would like to
change, or have in DXP.

Best Regards

John A. Ross

RSD Communications ltd
Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
==  

 - Original Message - 
 From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:40 AM
  To: Protel EDA Forum
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
  
  Snipped
 
  I would love to get together, face to face, computer to
  computer with a 
  very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are 
  non-religious in 
  their approach to computer software, and go through a 
  detailed end-to-end 
  design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  
  The warts of 
  each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it 
 will ever 
  happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn 
  some money 
  sometime.
 
 I am a regular Pads user, maybe not a proficient one, but I 
 have had a copy on my desk for much longer than I have had Protel. 
 
 But good luck in finding a 'non' religious Pads User, they 
 tend to be die-hards to the end. Most of the Protel based 
 designs I send to Asia end up in Pads format anyway at some point. 
 
 I use both layout tools simply because the layout tools 
 within 99SE/DXP have different abilities to Pads.
 
 For one the Autorouter in Pads works, it supports jumper 
 insrtion correctly, it had way better PCB rules support than 
 99SE, and the rules UI is much more intuative than DXP.
 
 But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis etc 
 I think it would be an even enough score (Autorouter 
 excluded) as the 2 applications have the same core abilities, 
 but each of them offers different benifets in certain areas 
 depending on the board design itself.
 
 I could not preceive life, without having both tools at my disposal.
 
 Best Regards
 
 John A. Ross
 
 RSD Communications ltd
 Email  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 WWWhttp://www.rsd.tv
 ==  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-19 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 07:02 AM 9/19/2003, John A. Ross [Design] wrote:
But as for a point by point, and ease of use, UI analysis etc I think it
would be an even enough score (Autorouter excluded) as the 2
applications have the same core abilities, but each of them offers
different benifets in certain areas depending on the board design
itself.
This is, in fact, not an even score, unless you have already factored in 
price -- or you bought Pads when they had their brief Kill-Protel-Accel 
fling. I did, and I returned it when I found that the software license 
provided that they could withdraw the license if you didn't keep up on 
maintenance

It would be surprising indeed if PADS were not stronger than Protel in at 
least some areas.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread ravenrux
Yeah!

I don't know about you guys, but my company just dropped 16 Grand on 99 SE.  We can't 
possibly afford to upgrade to DXP.  If Protel decides not to support SE, we're really 
hosed.  Guess it's a good thing I found this user group (or is it more like a support 
group?).

Michael Badillo

From: Igor Gmitrovic [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/17 Wed PM 08:51:38 EDT
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

Maybe they were not mis-leading us intentionally. They changed their policies a lot 
recently, with ATS and DXP and all, so P99SE got a boot, as they could not afford to 
support two versions of SW. We might want to follow this path, though, to get SP7. It 
seems to be ideallistic cause now, but it would still be worthwile for us here.

Igor 

-Original Message-
From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2003 10:30 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?



 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .


Didn't Protel Miss-leadingly announce at 1 time that they would release a
SP7?

That was the time when I decided not to upgrade to DXP until SP7 came
about...

_
Brian Guralnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 Duh?

 You guys just now figuring that out?

 Unfortunately, it appears to be hereditary . . .

 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .








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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Robert M. Wolfe
As far as I know it was never fixed and it still hangs
many many times on close so end process
needs to be done to shut down a machine.

Bob Wolfe


- Original Message - 
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file cache

 closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i
 recall

 you have to close the whole protel session
 i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have not
 found it to be much of a problem

 please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir

 Dennis Saputelli

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a
buglett
  (I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the default
  primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the
  PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there was one
  part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.  What
I
  do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all schematic
  parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes: {*=}.
 
  ...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it
  and
  then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
  Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or
with
 
  a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
   this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel caches
  placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic editor, it
  is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at the
mo).
  Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts the
  cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts
function.
 
  I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire databse
  file etc vanished.  This occured when Protel crashed and gave the option
  to ignore and continue or close.  This one time I chose to close and
  it then kindly offered to save my work that had changed.  The mistake in
  this case is to select save (and destroy).
 
  HTH
  Brendon.
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  09/18/03 02:00 AM
  Please respond to
  Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  To
  Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  cc
 
  Subject
  Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that
it
  does indeed have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase
my
  entire database (admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.
 
  I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and
Protel.
  Since then it has been MUCH better behaved.
 
  Michael Badillo
 
  From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  Hi again.
 
  I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).
 
  I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part
  field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and
  'class/rating' for field 3.
  Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those
  fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked
their
  'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.
 
  When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an
  asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and
  three
  asterisks on top of one another.
  The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain
asterisks
  (which is NOT expected).
 
  When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't
be
 
  there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position
(which
  is _very_ strange, to say the least).
 
  The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and
  then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
  Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or
with
 
  a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
  But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square
one.
 
  Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither
  does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.
 
  Which brings me to these questions:
  Did I miss a setting somewhere?
  Did anyone see this before?
  Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.
 
  Leo Potjewijd
  hardware designer
  IE Keyprocessor bv.
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  +31 20 4620700

 -- 
 Dennis Saputelli

   = send only plain text please! - no HTML ==
 ___
 Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com
 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Ian Wilson
On 10:00 PM 18/09/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Yeah!

I don't know about you guys, but my company just dropped 16 Grand on 99 
SE.  We can't possibly afford to upgrade to DXP.  If Protel decides not to 
support SE, we're really hosed.  Guess it's a good thing I found this user 
group (or is it more like a support group?).
If just means recently then you must have bought 2nd hand 
copies?  Otherwise you would have paid for a P99SE migration pack, which 
includes DXP when you have the need/want/hardware to run it.  Or am I wrong 
- can you still buy new P99SE licesnses?

Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a designers 
on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50 hours of improved 
productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the question then is how long 
will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to 50 hours of productivity 
improvement?

That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder 
question to answer.

I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the learning 
curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few days for that.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread ravenrux
My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new copy of Windows 
even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266 (two people).  I wish there 
was an upgrade for CEOs.

We've had 99 SE for maybe four months, but we bought it new--two copies in fact.  So I 
guess that means they still make it.

Michael Badillo

From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/18 Thu AM 08:29:43 EDT
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

On 10:00 PM 18/09/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Yeah!

I don't know about you guys, but my company just dropped 16 Grand on 99 
SE.  We can't possibly afford to upgrade to DXP.  If Protel decides not to 
support SE, we're really hosed.  Guess it's a good thing I found this user 
group (or is it more like a support group?).

If just means recently then you must have bought 2nd hand 
copies?  Otherwise you would have paid for a P99SE migration pack, which 
includes DXP when you have the need/want/hardware to run it.  Or am I wrong 
- can you still buy new P99SE licesnses?

Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a designers 
on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50 hours of improved 
productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the question then is how long 
will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to 50 hours of productivity 
improvement?

That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder 
question to answer.

I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the learning 
curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few days for that.

Ian






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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Brad Velander
Michael,
from the details that you are supplying, your company must have bought the DXP 
Migration packages (includes P99SE and DXP versions to allow you a migration path to 
DXP at a time of your choice). The price would be right for 2 systems. If this is the 
case you must also have valid DXP licenses for your migration path. DXP is fully 
supported and since you just purchased the packages I wouldn't bother with P99SE since 
it is a dead product and has been announced as a legacy product for more than a year.

I would believe that your company has 2 DXP licenses as part of their 
purchase, you should investigate this. Why start out with a legacy product which the 
supplier has announced (as long as 18+ months ago) will not be supported with any bug 
fixes or product improvements?

Sincerely, 
Brad Velander. 

Lead PCB Designer 
Norsat International Inc. 
Microwave Products 
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line) 
Fax  (604) 292-9010 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://www.norsat.com 


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:29 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
 My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  
 Getting a new copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  
 Our interns work on one P266 (two people).  I wish there was 
 an upgrade for CEOs.
 
 We've had 99 SE for maybe four months, but we bought it 
 new--two copies in fact.  So I guess that means they still make it.
 
 Michael Badillo


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support
 My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
(two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.

Maybe it's because Windows' purchase price and licensing terms are so much
less tolerable than they once were?  I have put the brakes on new Microsoft
purchases at my company because of this.  Windows Product Activation,
Licensing 6.0 (a.k.a. Software Assurance), and a 100% price increase in 4
years doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies about buying more of their
products.

Is it any wonder that people are reluctant to spend money on computers and
software?  Consider:

1) Anything you buy WILL become obsolete in less than 3 years
2) Any software you buy WILL have flaws (bugs) and there is no warranty
3) Support is practically non-existent
4) Probability of failure is very high (hardware failure, data corruption,
etc.)
5) Each new model/version requires some degree of re-learning on the user's
part
6) Integration with other existing systems is always a concern, and
sometimes a big problem
7) The resale/salvage value is nearly zero.  In fact, it costs to dispose of
old equipment.

Pretty bad deal, eh?

I can relate to your interns' plight.  While getting my BSEE, I was working
part-time for a local (Tallahassee) traffic products company in the late
80's.  They started me out in the repair shop.  I had to share a scope and
soldering iron with another tech.  But I got creative.  There was a filing
cabinet drawer full of old Weller soldering iron parts.  From a pile of old
soldering irons, I was able to salvage enough parts to build a fully
functional iron.  I had to modify the case (you know, those blue plastic
Weller cases) by sawing a larger rectangular hole to fit a switch and
indicator from a different model unit.  I got out my trusty Swiss army knife
saw blade and went to it.  Shortly thereafter, I had a working iron as good
as any of the other techs.  Still had to share the scope, until I bought a u
sed NLS mini-scope from a friend in physics class.  I had always wanted one
of those NLS mini-scopes for my own use, anyway.  I took my mini-scope to
work with me every day, and back home at night.  The scope wasn't that
great, but it was adequate for troubleshooting work.

Now, maybe your CEO is a cheapskate and perhaps numerous other expletives.
But tell your interns to get creative.  Maybe you have some old PCs laying
around that can be salvaged for their use?  If you can't get new Microsoft
licenses, maybe a Linux distro could be used?  It depends on what work the
interns are doing, of course.  If they are doing spreadsheet grunt work or
something like that, OpenOffice (free) can do just about everything Excel
can.  If they are doing PCB design, they gotta have Windows to run Protel
on.

The best way to get rid of your boss is to make him look good so he will be
promoted away from you...

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
(two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.

 We've had 99 SE for maybe four months, but we bought it new--two copies in
fact.  So I guess that means they still make it.

 Michael Badillo





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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread ravenrux
Unfortunately my CEO has nowhere to go up to.  My department head is an engineer and a 
good guy.  We'd have new stuff if it were up to him.  

Our interns love Linux, but the PHB (pointy-haired boss) won't let them install 
it--even if it is their own copy.  

We are all pretty creative around here--it's good for the soul.

Thanx,
Michael Badillo
  
From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/18 Thu AM 11:37:27 EDT
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
(two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.

Maybe it's because Windows' purchase price and licensing terms are so much
less tolerable than they once were?  I have put the brakes on new Microsoft
purchases at my company because of this.  Windows Product Activation,
Licensing 6.0 (a.k.a. Software Assurance), and a 100% price increase in 4
years doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies about buying more of their
products.

Is it any wonder that people are reluctant to spend money on computers and
software?  Consider:

1) Anything you buy WILL become obsolete in less than 3 years
2) Any software you buy WILL have flaws (bugs) and there is no warranty
3) Support is practically non-existent
4) Probability of failure is very high (hardware failure, data corruption,
etc.)
5) Each new model/version requires some degree of re-learning on the user's
part
6) Integration with other existing systems is always a concern, and
sometimes a big problem
7) The resale/salvage value is nearly zero.  In fact, it costs to dispose of
old equipment.

Pretty bad deal, eh?

I can relate to your interns' plight.  While getting my BSEE, I was working
part-time for a local (Tallahassee) traffic products company in the late
80's.  They started me out in the repair shop.  I had to share a scope and
soldering iron with another tech.  But I got creative.  There was a filing
cabinet drawer full of old Weller soldering iron parts.  From a pile of old
soldering irons, I was able to salvage enough parts to build a fully
functional iron.  I had to modify the case (you know, those blue plastic
Weller cases) by sawing a larger rectangular hole to fit a switch and
indicator from a different model unit.  I got out my trusty Swiss army knife
saw blade and went to it.  Shortly thereafter, I had a working iron as good
as any of the other techs.  Still had to share the scope, until I bought a u
sed NLS mini-scope from a friend in physics class.  I had always wanted one
of those NLS mini-scopes for my own use, anyway.  I took my mini-scope to
work with me every day, and back home at night.  The scope wasn't that
great, but it was adequate for troubleshooting work.

Now, maybe your CEO is a cheapskate and perhaps numerous other expletives.
But tell your interns to get creative.  Maybe you have some old PCs laying
around that can be salvaged for their use?  If you can't get new Microsoft
licenses, maybe a Linux distro could be used?  It depends on what work the
interns are doing, of course.  If they are doing spreadsheet grunt work or
something like that, OpenOffice (free) can do just about everything Excel
can.  If they are doing PCB design, they gotta have Windows to run Protel
on.

The best way to get rid of your boss is to make him look good so he will be
promoted away from you...

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
(two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.

 We've had 99 SE for maybe four months, but we bought it new--two copies in
fact.  So I guess that means they still make it.

 Michael Badillo








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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Matt Pobursky
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:29:43 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
 Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a 
 designers on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50
 hours of improved productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the
 question then is how long will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to
 50 hours of productivity improvement?
 
 That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder 
 question to answer.
 
 I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the 
 learning curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few
 days for that.

I think more than just a little disingenuous. I find it extremely 
difficult to believe that anyone not already familiar with DXP can be 
as productive as they are with 99SE in a few days. In fact, this was 
a major factor in my cost analysis of DXP vs. 99SE that led to my
decision to not upgrade. That and the fact that even after I go up the
learning curve, I haven't seen anything that will make my designs
better or happen more quickly or with less errors.

I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of experience with 
engineering software in general. I figured more like 1-2 months to come 
up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as I am with
99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal
optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)). I also figured I'd be
spending the first week or two just sorting out how everything works in
general. Following the posts on the Yahoo DXP list reinforces this
conclusion.

I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
learning curve with new software. I'm an independent contractor and I
don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen much in DXP vs. 99SE
(at least to this point) that makes a huge difference to designers
doing everyday work (schematics and PCB's). Yes, I'm sure that some of
the features of DXP are nice to haves and must haves for a few
people. But for the masses of us doing basic schematic and PCB design
work, I just don't see it -- especially when you take into account the
hidden costs, i.e. learning curve, design migration, etc.

In the end, my conclusion is that DXP was primarily an artificial 
direction change by Altium to generate cash sales to please the 
stockholders and not driven by user demand. I don't believe there are
any fundamental flaws with 99SE that couldn't have been fixed, save for
the fact they'd be hard pressed to ask $2500-$8000 them. So drop
support for an existing (good) product and make a new one that is
essentially a forced update if you want any support into the future.

I guess Altium figured it works great for Microsoft so they should 
adopt the method too. In the meantime, I'll be sticking with 99SE and 
living with the (known) problems it has, just as I'm sticking with
Windows 2000 until something better from someone else comes about. I
would love to see an SP7 that fixes the majority of existing bugs and
would even pay for it. But even if they are not fixed and no SP7 ever
emerges, I can't see any reason to upgrade to DXP.

Just an opinion of a long time Protel user.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems 



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Bagotronix Tech Support
 Our interns love Linux, but the PHB (pointy-haired boss) won't let them
install it--even if it is their own copy.

They might want to try Knoppix.  It's a Linux distro that does not require
installation - it boots from the CD and doesn't have to write anything to
the hard drive.  Any persistent data can be saved to a floppy.

But, on the other hand, maybe Mr. PHB needs to live with the consequences of
his decisions.  In PHB-Think (an oxymoronic term), interns are cheap,
abusable, and disposable.  Almost like regular employees, eh?  ;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 Unfortunately my CEO has nowhere to go up to.  My department head is an
engineer and a good guy.  We'd have new stuff if it were up to him.

 Our interns love Linux, but the PHB (pointy-haired boss) won't let them
install it--even if it is their own copy.

 We are all pretty creative around here--it's good for the soul.

 Thanx,
 Michael Badillo

 From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2003/09/18 Thu AM 11:37:27 EDT
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

  My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
 copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
 (two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.

 Maybe it's because Windows' purchase price and licensing terms are so much
 less tolerable than they once were?  I have put the brakes on new
Microsoft
 purchases at my company because of this.  Windows Product Activation,
 Licensing 6.0 (a.k.a. Software Assurance), and a 100% price increase in 4
 years doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies about buying more of their
 products.

 Is it any wonder that people are reluctant to spend money on computers and
 software?  Consider:

 1) Anything you buy WILL become obsolete in less than 3 years
 2) Any software you buy WILL have flaws (bugs) and there is no warranty
 3) Support is practically non-existent
 4) Probability of failure is very high (hardware failure, data corruption,
 etc.)
 5) Each new model/version requires some degree of re-learning on the
user's
 part
 6) Integration with other existing systems is always a concern, and
 sometimes a big problem
 7) The resale/salvage value is nearly zero.  In fact, it costs to dispose
of
 old equipment.

 Pretty bad deal, eh?

 I can relate to your interns' plight.  While getting my BSEE, I was
working
 part-time for a local (Tallahassee) traffic products company in the late
 80's.  They started me out in the repair shop.  I had to share a scope and
 soldering iron with another tech.  But I got creative.  There was a filing
 cabinet drawer full of old Weller soldering iron parts.  From a pile of
old
 soldering irons, I was able to salvage enough parts to build a fully
 functional iron.  I had to modify the case (you know, those blue plastic
 Weller cases) by sawing a larger rectangular hole to fit a switch and
 indicator from a different model unit.  I got out my trusty Swiss army
knife
 saw blade and went to it.  Shortly thereafter, I had a working iron as
good
 as any of the other techs.  Still had to share the scope, until I bought a
u
 sed NLS mini-scope from a friend in physics class.  I had always wanted
one
 of those NLS mini-scopes for my own use, anyway.  I took my mini-scope to
 work with me every day, and back home at night.  The scope wasn't that
 great, but it was adequate for troubleshooting work.

 Now, maybe your CEO is a cheapskate and perhaps numerous other expletives.
 But tell your interns to get creative.  Maybe you have some old PCs laying
 around that can be salvaged for their use?  If you can't get new Microsoft
 licenses, maybe a Linux distro could be used?  It depends on what work the
 interns are doing, of course.  If they are doing spreadsheet grunt work or
 something like that, OpenOffice (free) can do just about everything Excel
 can.  If they are doing PCB design, they gotta have Windows to run Protel
 on.

 The best way to get rid of your boss is to make him look good so he will
be
 promoted away from you...

 Best regards,
 Ivan Baggett
 Bagotronix Inc.
 website:  www.bagotronix.com


 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:29 AM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


  My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  Getting a new
 copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns work on one P266
 (two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.
 
  We've had 99 SE for maybe four months, but we bought it new--two copies
in
 fact.  So I guess that means they still make it.
 
  Michael Badillo

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Dennis Saputelli
Matt,
your comments reflect my thoughts, feelings and experience about 
this exactly
and i paid for the DXP upgrade

so far i have found it cheaper to let it collect electronic dust

Dennis Saputelli


Matt Pobursky wrote:
 
 On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:29:43 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
  Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a
  designers on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50
  hours of improved productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the
  question then is how long will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to
  50 hours of productivity improvement?
 
  That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder
  question to answer.
 
  I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the
  learning curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few
  days for that.
 
 I think more than just a little disingenuous. I find it extremely
 difficult to believe that anyone not already familiar with DXP can be
 as productive as they are with 99SE in a few days. In fact, this was
 a major factor in my cost analysis of DXP vs. 99SE that led to my
 decision to not upgrade. That and the fact that even after I go up the
 learning curve, I haven't seen anything that will make my designs
 better or happen more quickly or with less errors.
 
 I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of experience with
 engineering software in general. I figured more like 1-2 months to come
 up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as I am with
 99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal
 optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)). I also figured I'd be
 spending the first week or two just sorting out how everything works in
 general. Following the posts on the Yahoo DXP list reinforces this
 conclusion.
 
 I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
 an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
 or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
 learning curve with new software. I'm an independent contractor and I
 don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
 new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
 This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
 ~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
 increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.
 
 Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen much in DXP vs. 99SE
 (at least to this point) that makes a huge difference to designers
 doing everyday work (schematics and PCB's). Yes, I'm sure that some of
 the features of DXP are nice to haves and must haves for a few
 people. But for the masses of us doing basic schematic and PCB design
 work, I just don't see it -- especially when you take into account the
 hidden costs, i.e. learning curve, design migration, etc.
 
 In the end, my conclusion is that DXP was primarily an artificial
 direction change by Altium to generate cash sales to please the
 stockholders and not driven by user demand. I don't believe there are
 any fundamental flaws with 99SE that couldn't have been fixed, save for
 the fact they'd be hard pressed to ask $2500-$8000 them. So drop
 support for an existing (good) product and make a new one that is
 essentially a forced update if you want any support into the future.
 
 I guess Altium figured it works great for Microsoft so they should
 adopt the method too. In the meantime, I'll be sticking with 99SE and
 living with the (known) problems it has, just as I'm sticking with
 Windows 2000 until something better from someone else comes about. I
 would love to see an SP7 that fixes the majority of existing bugs and
 would even pay for it. But even if they are not fixed and no SP7 ever
 emerges, I can't see any reason to upgrade to DXP.
 
 Just an opinion of a long time Protel user.
 
 Matt Pobursky
 Maximum Performance Systems

-- 
Dennis Saputelli

  = send only plain text please! - no HTML ==
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com  
2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480
San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Duane Foster
Cadsoft's Eagle PCB design software runs on Linux.

duane

 -Original Message-
 From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:16 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
  Our interns love Linux, but the PHB (pointy-haired boss) 
 won't let them
 install it--even if it is their own copy.
 
 They might want to try Knoppix.  It's a Linux distro that 
 does not require
 installation - it boots from the CD and doesn't have to write 
 anything to
 the hard drive.  Any persistent data can be saved to a floppy.
 
 But, on the other hand, maybe Mr. PHB needs to live with the 
 consequences of
 his decisions.  In PHB-Think (an oxymoronic term), interns are cheap,
 abusable, and disposable.  Almost like regular employees, eh?  ;-)
 
 Best regards,
 Ivan Baggett
 Bagotronix Inc.
 website:  www.bagotronix.com
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 12:19 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
  Unfortunately my CEO has nowhere to go up to.  My 
 department head is an
 engineer and a good guy.  We'd have new stuff if it were up to him.
 
  Our interns love Linux, but the PHB (pointy-haired boss) 
 won't let them
 install it--even if it is their own copy.
 
  We are all pretty creative around here--it's good for the soul.
 
  Thanx,
  Michael Badillo
 
  From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: 2003/09/18 Thu AM 11:37:27 EDT
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
   My company won't upgrade computers, much less software.  
 Getting a new
  copy of Windows even is like pulling teeth.  Our interns 
 work on one P266
  (two people).  I wish there was an upgrade for CEOs.
 
  Maybe it's because Windows' purchase price and licensing 
 terms are so much
  less tolerable than they once were?  I have put the brakes on new
 Microsoft
  purchases at my company because of this.  Windows Product 
 Activation,
  Licensing 6.0 (a.k.a. Software Assurance), and a 100% price 
 increase in 4
  years doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies about buying 
 more of their
  products.
 
  Is it any wonder that people are reluctant to spend money 
 on computers and
  software?  Consider:
 
  1) Anything you buy WILL become obsolete in less than 3 years
  2) Any software you buy WILL have flaws (bugs) and there is 
 no warranty
  3) Support is practically non-existent
  4) Probability of failure is very high (hardware failure, 
 data corruption,
  etc.)
  5) Each new model/version requires some degree of re-learning on the
 user's
  part
  6) Integration with other existing systems is always a concern, and
  sometimes a big problem
  7) The resale/salvage value is nearly zero.  In fact, it 
 costs to dispose
 of
  old equipment.
 
  Pretty bad deal, eh?
 
  I can relate to your interns' plight.  While getting my BSEE, I was
 working
  part-time for a local (Tallahassee) traffic products 
 company in the late
  80's.  They started me out in the repair shop.  I had to 
 share a scope and
  soldering iron with another tech.  But I got creative.  
 There was a filing
  cabinet drawer full of old Weller soldering iron parts.  
 From a pile of
 old
  soldering irons, I was able to salvage enough parts to build a fully
  functional iron.  I had to modify the case (you know, those 
 blue plastic
  Weller cases) by sawing a larger rectangular hole to fit a 
 switch and
  indicator from a different model unit.  I got out my trusty 
 Swiss army
 knife
  saw blade and went to it.  Shortly thereafter, I had a 
 working iron as
 good
  as any of the other techs.  Still had to share the scope, 
 until I bought a
 u
  sed NLS mini-scope from a friend in physics class.  I had 
 always wanted
 one
  of those NLS mini-scopes for my own use, anyway.  I took my 
 mini-scope to
  work with me every day, and back home at night.  The scope 
 wasn't that
  great, but it was adequate for troubleshooting work.
 
  Now, maybe your CEO is a cheapskate and perhaps numerous 
 other expletives.
  But tell your interns to get creative.  Maybe you have some 
 old PCs laying
  around that can be salvaged for their use?  If you can't 
 get new Microsoft
  licenses, maybe a Linux distro could be used?  It depends 
 on what work the
  interns are doing, of course.  If they are doing 
 spreadsheet grunt work or
  something like that, OpenOffice (free) can do just about 
 everything Excel
  can.  If they are doing PCB design, they gotta have Windows 
 to run Protel
  on.
 
  The best way to get rid of your boss is to make him look 
 good so he will
 be
  promoted away from you...
 
  Best regards,
  Ivan Baggett
  Bagotronix Inc.
  website:  www.bagotronix.com
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [PEDA

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread ravenrux
I am very fortunate.  I was a technician until one of the engineers noticed that I 
learned very quickly.  He brought me into the engineering department and I've been 
paid while I've learned all of it:  circuit design, PCB layout, machine code, C, the 
old design software (an old program called DCCADD), and now the new.  I manage to be 
productive, and I have to study a lot on my off time, but I still spend quite a lot of 
time reading, learning, and experimenting.  I still have years to go, but they've been 
very good to me in this respect.  I am not an engineer yet, but I learn more every 
day.  How I managed this (without a degree) in an economy where degreed engineers are 
taking jobs as technicians and assemblers I don't know--but I count my blessings every 
day.

The learning curve has been very steep on Protel.  Even more so than design 
fundamentals have been.  If I had to learn it on my own time, and especially if I had 
to pay for it myself, I would probably have gone with Eaglesoft.  I just can't justify 
a personal expense of $8,000 for software that is as quirky as this is.

Just a Newbie's opinion,
Michael Badillo
Engineering Technician

From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/18 Thu PM 12:18:03 EDT
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:29:43 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
 Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a 
 designers on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50
 hours of improved productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the
 question then is how long will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to
 50 hours of productivity improvement?
 
 That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder 
 question to answer.
 
 I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the 
 learning curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few
 days for that.

I think more than just a little disingenuous. I find it extremely 
difficult to believe that anyone not already familiar with DXP can be 
as productive as they are with 99SE in a few days. In fact, this was 
a major factor in my cost analysis of DXP vs. 99SE that led to my
decision to not upgrade. That and the fact that even after I go up the
learning curve, I haven't seen anything that will make my designs
better or happen more quickly or with less errors.

I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of experience with 
engineering software in general. I figured more like 1-2 months to come 
up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as I am with
99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal
optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)). I also figured I'd be
spending the first week or two just sorting out how everything works in
general. Following the posts on the Yahoo DXP list reinforces this
conclusion.

I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
learning curve with new software. I'm an independent contractor and I
don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen much in DXP vs. 99SE
(at least to this point) that makes a huge difference to designers
doing everyday work (schematics and PCB's). Yes, I'm sure that some of
the features of DXP are nice to haves and must haves for a few
people. But for the masses of us doing basic schematic and PCB design
work, I just don't see it -- especially when you take into account the
hidden costs, i.e. learning curve, design migration, etc.

In the end, my conclusion is that DXP was primarily an artificial 
direction change by Altium to generate cash sales to please the 
stockholders and not driven by user demand. I don't believe there are
any fundamental flaws with 99SE that couldn't have been fixed, save for
the fact they'd be hard pressed to ask $2500-$8000 them. So drop
support for an existing (good) product and make a new one that is
essentially a forced update if you want any support into the future.

I guess Altium figured it works great for Microsoft so they should 
adopt the method too. In the meantime, I'll be sticking with 99SE and 
living with the (known) problems it has, just as I'm sticking with
Windows 2000 until something better from someone else comes about. I
would love to see an SP7 that fixes the majority of existing bugs and
would even pay for it. But even if they are not fixed and no SP7 ever
emerges, I can't see any reason to upgrade to DXP.

Just an opinion of a long time Protel user.

Matt Pobursky

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread JaMi Smith

KLUNK ! ! !

I thought at one time that we could possibly embarrass Altium into some
kind of action on Service Pack 7, and I think that since it appears that
all else has failed, that maybe its time we should start making a some
more noise again.

It worked for ATS (at least superficially) . . .

The nicer, kinder, gentler, meeker, submissive, and more passive user
approach has gotten us nowhere in terms of fixing the remaining problems
with Protel 99 SE, and absolutely nothing except more refrains from the
upgrade to Protel DXP song and dance routine of some of the more
prominent users in this forum, almost as if they were either getting a
commission on DXP sales, or maybe even hoping that if they could get
enough new converts to DXP that Altium would fix it faster and even
possibly someday make DXP as productive as 99 SE (even with all of its
warts) . . . .

[insert primal scream here]

AGH  ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Upgrading to DXP, even at this point in time, is not upgrading, but
still actually downgrading, in almost every sense. Yes, DXP may
someday actually become the super wazoo program it has the potential to
be, and even become a really functional alternative to 99 SE, and be
worth the price of admission, and even be worth the price of training
(or is that retraining), but it appears that at this point there are
still a number of DXP users that are still singing the blues and have
not yet seen the vision of the starry eyed and Altruistic Altium
faithful . .

Alt[ruistic]ium . . .

JaMi

PS. While members of this forum see an occasional DXP sob story, or even
the occasional story of success, to really see what's happening with DXP
you need to join the DXP Forum, from the Altium website, where you can
see the daily problems and solutions. Even as just Protel 99 SE users
you should still be able to join the DXP forum (since you are a
potential DXP customer), just to monitor its progress as it were.
Interestingly, or possibly the word is unfortunately, it is still even v
ery difficult to log into the official DXP Forum website and review
all of the previous posts that are archived there, since a good number
of the posts are totally scrambled and unreadable, since it is still,
even at this time, unable to correctly display the all of the various
different email formats.

* * * * *

- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 As far as I know it was never fixed and it still hangs
 many many times on close so end process
 needs to be done to shut down a machine.

 Bob Wolfe


 - Original Message -
 From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


  i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file
cache
 
  closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i
  recall
 
  you have to close the whole protel session
  i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have
not
  found it to be much of a problem
 
  please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir
 
  Dennis Saputelli
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a
 buglett
   (I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the
default
   primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the
   PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there
was one
   part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.
What
 I
   do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all
schematic
   parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes:
{*=}.
  
   ...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part,
delete it
   and
   then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank
fields.
   Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click
or
 with
  
   a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
  
    this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel
caches
   placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic
editor, it
   is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at
the
 mo).
   Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts
the
   cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts
 function.
  
   I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire
databse
   file etc vanished.  This occured when Protel crashed and gave the
option
   to ignore and continue or close.  This one time I chose to
close and
   it then kindly offered to save my work that had changed.  The
mistake in
   this case is to select save (and destroy).
  
   HTH
   Brendon.
  
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   09/18/03 02:00 AM
   Please respond to
   Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Back, Norb

Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7   Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7
Service Pack 7

I think Altium should do a SP7, that way I would at lease be getting
something for the money I spent on DXP

Norbert

-Original Message-Service Pack 7
From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 2:35 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Cc: JaMi Smith
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?



KLUNK ! ! !

I thought at one time that we could possibly embarrass Altium into some
kind of action on Service Pack 7, and I think that since it appears that
all else has failed, that maybe its time we should start making a some
more noise again.

It worked for ATS (at least superficially) . . .

The nicer, kinder, gentler, meeker, submissive, and more passive user
approach has gotten us nowhere in terms of fixing the remaining problems
with Protel 99 SE, and absolutely nothing except more refrains from the
upgrade to Protel DXP song and dance routine of some of the more
prominent users in this forum, almost as if they were either getting a
commission on DXP sales, or maybe even hoping that if they could get
enough new converts to DXP that Altium would fix it faster and even
possibly someday make DXP as productive as 99 SE (even with all of its
warts) . . . .

[insert primal scream here]

AGH  ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Upgrading to DXP, even at this point in time, is not upgrading, but
still actually downgrading, in almost every sense. Yes, DXP may
someday actually become the super wazoo program it has the potential to
be, and even become a really functional alternative to 99 SE, and be
worth the price of admission, and even be worth the price of training
(or is that retraining), but it appears that at this point there are
still a number of DXP users that are still singing the blues and have
not yet seen the vision of the starry eyed and Altruistic Altium
faithful . .

Alt[ruistic]ium . . .

JaMi

PS. While members of this forum see an occasional DXP sob story, or even
the occasional story of success, to really see what's happening with DXP
you need to join the DXP Forum, from the Altium website, where you can
see the daily problems and solutions. Even as just Protel 99 SE users
you should still be able to join the DXP forum (since you are a
potential DXP customer), just to monitor its progress as it were.
Interestingly, or possibly the word is unfortunately, it is still even v
ery difficult to log into the official DXP Forum website and review
all of the previous posts that are archived there, since a good number
of the posts are totally scrambled and unreadable, since it is still,
even at this time, unable to correctly display the all of the various
different email formats.

* * * * *

- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 As far as I know it was never fixed and it still hangs
 many many times on close so end process
 needs to be done to shut down a machine.

 Bob Wolfe


 - Original Message -
 From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


  i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file
cache
 
  closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i 
  recall
 
  you have to close the whole protel session
  i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have
not
  found it to be much of a problem
 
  please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir
 
  Dennis Saputelli
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a
 buglett
   (I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the
default
   primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the

   PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there
was one
   part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.
What
 I
   do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all
schematic
   parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes:
{*=}.
  
   ...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part,
delete it
   and
   then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank
fields.
   Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click
or
 with
  
   a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
  
    this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel
caches
   placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic
editor, it
   is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at
the
 mo).
   Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts
the
   cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts
 function.
  
   I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire
databse

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Dennis Saputelli
someone :)
should forward some of these to the DXP list

ds


Back, Norb wrote:
 
 Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7   Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7
 Service Pack 7
 
 I think Altium should do a SP7, that way I would at lease be getting
 something for the money I spent on DXP
 
 Norbert
 
 -Original Message-Service Pack 7
 From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 2:35 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Cc: JaMi Smith
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 KLUNK ! ! !
 
 I thought at one time that we could possibly embarrass Altium into some
 kind of action on Service Pack 7, and I think that since it appears that
 all else has failed, that maybe its time we should start making a some
 more noise again.
 
 It worked for ATS (at least superficially) . . .
 
 The nicer, kinder, gentler, meeker, submissive, and more passive user
 approach has gotten us nowhere in terms of fixing the remaining problems
 with Protel 99 SE, and absolutely nothing except more refrains from the
 upgrade to Protel DXP song and dance routine of some of the more
 prominent users in this forum, almost as if they were either getting a
 commission on DXP sales, or maybe even hoping that if they could get
 enough new converts to DXP that Altium would fix it faster and even
 possibly someday make DXP as productive as 99 SE (even with all of its
 warts) . . . .
 
 [insert primal scream here]
 
 AGH  ! ! ! ! ! ! !
 
 Upgrading to DXP, even at this point in time, is not upgrading, but
 still actually downgrading, in almost every sense. Yes, DXP may
 someday actually become the super wazoo program it has the potential to
 be, and even become a really functional alternative to 99 SE, and be
 worth the price of admission, and even be worth the price of training
 (or is that retraining), but it appears that at this point there are
 still a number of DXP users that are still singing the blues and have
 not yet seen the vision of the starry eyed and Altruistic Altium
 faithful . .
 
 Alt[ruistic]ium . . .
 
 JaMi
 
 PS. While members of this forum see an occasional DXP sob story, or even
 the occasional story of success, to really see what's happening with DXP
 you need to join the DXP Forum, from the Altium website, where you can
 see the daily problems and solutions. Even as just Protel 99 SE users
 you should still be able to join the DXP forum (since you are a
 potential DXP customer), just to monitor its progress as it were.
 Interestingly, or possibly the word is unfortunately, it is still even v
 ery difficult to log into the official DXP Forum website and review
 all of the previous posts that are archived there, since a good number
 of the posts are totally scrambled and unreadable, since it is still,
 even at this time, unable to correctly display the all of the various
 different email formats.
 
 * * * * *
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  As far as I know it was never fixed and it still hangs
  many many times on close so end process
  needs to be done to shut down a machine.
 
  Bob Wolfe
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
   i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file
 cache
  
   closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i
   recall
  
   you have to close the whole protel session
   i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have
 not
   found it to be much of a problem
  
   please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir
  
   Dennis Saputelli
  
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a
  buglett
(I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the
 default
primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the
 
PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there
 was one
part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.
 What
  I
do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all
 schematic
parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes:
 {*=}.
   
...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part,
 delete it
and
then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank
 fields.
Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click
 or
  with
   
a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
   
 this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel
 caches
placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic
 editor, it
is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at
 the
  mo).
Even

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Ian Wilson
On 02:18 AM 19/09/2003, Matt Pobursky said:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:29:43 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
 Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a
 designers on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 25 to 50
 hours of improved productivity will pay for it, one week.  So, the
 question then is how long will I have to be running DXP to get 25 to
 50 hours of productivity improvement?

 That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a harder
 question to answer.

 I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the
 learning curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a few
 days for that.
I think more than just a little disingenuous. I find it extremely
difficult to believe that anyone not already familiar with DXP can be
as productive as they are with 99SE in a few days. In fact, this was
a major factor in my cost analysis of DXP vs. 99SE that led to my
decision to not upgrade. That and the fact that even after I go up the
learning curve, I haven't seen anything that will make my designs
better or happen more quickly or with less errors.
I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of experience with
engineering software in general. I figured more like 1-2 months to come
up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as I am with
99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal
optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)). I also figured I'd be
spending the first week or two just sorting out how everything works in
general. Following the posts on the Yahoo DXP list reinforces this
conclusion.
I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
learning curve with new software. I'm an independent contractor and I
don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
My situation exactly - if I don't bill I don't get paid, if I don't work I 
don't bill.  Almost all of my work is by the hour, so there is actually 
little financial incentive to make myself more productive, apart from the 
long term possibility that my clients may see that others can do more in 
less time.  There is certainly much less incentive to be more productive 
than someone doing lots of fixed-price work.

As for DXP not being more productive than P99SE.  That is wrong.  It is 
easily more productive.  The question is are you happy with the pay back 
time in your situation.

If you do multi-channel work, if you do much simulation, if you want better 
erc, if better library management is important, if easier creation of 
large-pin count symbols is relevent, if version control integration is 
important, then the pay back time will be shorter than someone that doesn't 
want this stuff.  You can see a bigger comparison on the web link I have 
posted in the past.  I get no detailed analysis or feedback from P99SE 
users on these points so it would appear to me that most of the people 
complaining about DXP on this list are not actually using it - which is not 
unexpected but is a bit of a luxury.  I would certainly be very interested 
in other detailed analysis on the advantages of P99SE over DXP.  I spent my 
own time and, hence $, doing this.  Anyone else game?  I did (and do) this 
as a bit of a service to the users - sort of my contribution instead of 
writing open-source software. (Ditto my time on these lists.)

I was comfortable with queries in a couple of days, truely.  I did not read 
the detailed documentation that is now available on the query system (and 
still haven't).  I doubt I am more intelligent than most of the other 
players on this list.  So my conclusion is that pretty much everyone else 
can do this - it does help to have real work to do and real commitment to 
pushing up the learning curve.  The learning curve for DXP in total was 
certainly longer than the learning curve for the queries alone.  If it took 
me months to get across a new tool like DXP then I would be out of 
business.  I usually give a day for any new instrument, a week for any new 
software.  I may be involved with a shop doing the DXP upgrade in a week or 
so.  I will try to see how long it takes (they will have me there which 
will colour the results, I guess.)

This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.
Ditto.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen much in DXP vs. 99SE
(at least to this point) that makes a huge difference to designers
doing everyday work (schematics and PCB's).
Oft repeated by those not using it.  Much less so by those using 
it.  Classic situation.  You can see my comparison and make your own 
decision.  My preferred tool is DXP, now by a 

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread John A. Ross
Ian

On most of your comparison between DXP and 99SE you have fair points. 

http://www.considered.com.au/DXP_vs_P99SE.htm for those who missed the
link in Ians post before.

But I would need to disagree on the heavy use of queries being
productive. My main frustration is the perception that I spend more time
getting the correct logic for the query, than doing the work itself.
Perhaps someone looking over my shoulder making an analysis of my
perceived lost time could rationalise it a bit better, as I might
simply, be too close to the real issues, to see them clearly for myself.

At the very least, at times I would need to label myself so 'dense' as
not to see the fantastic benefits of the new system for anything other
than complex edits or selections. For simple edits at least its
overkill.

Perhaps it will come to me with time, for the moment, like some others,
I am really struggling with it, or at least the drastic change,
resulting in serious frustration, which is a bigger enemy.  I am doing
my best to resist the urge to give up, as I do not like to be beat. I
see the same sentiment in some other peoples posts as well.

Of course such a powerful system is advantageous, more power to the user
and all that, especially as the user can 'store' their own complex
queries so the next time they have a need for it, they can re-use it.

My only other major gripe with DXP (apart from the way it links  stores
files) is the 'panel for everything' approach which leads to a lot of
redundancy and confusion for data entry, refresh and display. As for
screen clutter, well,  even with dynamic transparency for panels, its
way too busy, even with 2 monitors at 1600x1200.

Most of these issue have been covered=quite exhaustively on the DXP
lists, and on your own link above, so hopefully Altium will listen (as
they have been doing to date) and make us a bit happier with Sp3 :-)

As for the issue of perceived productivity, there are a lot of more
politically orientated issue there which do not relate to DXP or 99SE in
any real way.   

John




 -Original Message-
 From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:07 PM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 On 02:18 AM 19/09/2003, Matt Pobursky said:
 On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:29:43 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote:
   Otherwise the quote upgrade price is about $2500.  Lets assume a 
   designers on-cost is between 25 and 50 dollars per hour - 
 25 to 50 
   hours of improved productivity will pay for it, one week. 
  So, the 
   question then is how long will I have to be running DXP 
 to get 25 to 
   50 hours of productivity improvement?
  
   That is the real question, not the actual cost.  But this is a 
   harder question to answer.
  
   I have been a little disingenuous here, I haven't included the 
   learning curve which is significant in one area - queries.  Add a 
   few days for that.
 
 I think more than just a little disingenuous. I find it extremely 
 difficult to believe that anyone not already familiar with 
 DXP can be 
 as productive as they are with 99SE in a few days. In 
 fact, this was 
 a major factor in my cost analysis of DXP vs. 99SE that led to my 
 decision to not upgrade. That and the fact that even after I 
 go up the 
 learning curve, I haven't seen anything that will make my designs 
 better or happen more quickly or with less errors.
 
 I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of 
 experience with 
 engineering software in general. I figured more like 1-2 
 months to come 
 up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as 
 I am with 
 99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal 
 optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)). I also 
 figured I'd be 
 spending the first week or two just sorting out how 
 everything works in 
 general. Following the posts on the Yahoo DXP list reinforces this 
 conclusion.
 
 I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. 
 you have 
 an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are 
 completed 
 or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the 
 learning curve with new software. I'm an independent 
 contractor and I 
 don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend 
 learning 
 new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
 
 My situation exactly - if I don't bill I don't get paid, if I 
 don't work I 
 don't bill.  Almost all of my work is by the hour, so there 
 is actually 
 little financial incentive to make myself more productive, 
 apart from the 
 long term possibility that my clients may see that others can 
 do more in 
 less time.  There is certainly much less incentive to be more 
 productive 
 than someone doing lots of fixed-price work.
 
 As for DXP not being more productive than P99SE.  That is 
 wrong.  It is 
 easily more productive.  The question is are you happy with 
 the pay back 
 time in your situation

Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 12:18 PM 9/18/2003, Matt Pobursky wrote:
I'm a reasonably smart guy having many years (20+) of experience with
engineering software in general.
With similar experience or more, I find that I don't learn nearly as 
quickly as I did when I was younger.

 I figured more like 1-2 months to come
up to speed on DXP and become anywhere near as efficient as I am with
99SE (primary rule of engineering management: engineers are eternal
optimists when it comes to time estimates! ;-)).
I very much doubt that DXP will take that much time to learn. I used it, 
just a little, in Beta. Sure, there were some different things. But if you 
have the DXP list to fall back on, I'd incline to Mr. Wilson's estimate of 
a few days. And those would not be unproductive days, just slowed down.

I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
learning curve with new software.
That's an assumption that I don't think is true for Mr. Wilson.

 I'm an independent contractor and I
don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.
The math seems good but is probably misleading. If you are working 
full-time, day-in and day-out, you are either (1) seriously overworked and 
should probably be thinking about finding someone to do your Protel design 
for you, it can be done and done well by an expert engineer for less than 
your hour rate -- or (2) you don't really work full-time on design, it just 
seems that way.

One thing that is quite true which is brought out by this post: training 
time is usually a more serious cost than the actual cost of the software. 
However, Protel 99SE is ultimately a dead end. It's a very useful tool that 
has not reached the end of its life, but DXP will be the future of the 
tool, or whatever replaces DXP.

Bottom line, if you are going to stay in this business, you are going to 
need to adjust to newer tools anyway. So your cost-benefit analysis was not 
complete. The real question is whether you retrain now or later.

It is a separate question when you choose to upgrade. The smart time to 
upgrade with Protel is when the price of the upgrade seems like it will be 
the lowest. Usually this is early in the product cycle. Rarely Protel has 
held an upgrade special, for example the P98 upgrade to P99 was $1000 at 
the beginning, but was sold for $700 on special for a short time. However, 
Protel never held an upgrade special for P99SE to DXP and the price has now 
gone up to $2495. Let me guess it is not going to go down.

However, if you aren't going to use it, there is no sense buying it 
immediately. Rather, wait until Protel announces that the price is going 
up. They've always done this with plenty of notice, as they did this time. 
Then buy it even if you aren't ready to retrain.

On the other hand, an argument could be made that you should just upgrade 
at first release of the new version, but I won't go into the reasons

You've got to think of the upgrade price as Protel's equivalent to 
maintenance. It is, you know. And as such, it tends to be among the lowest 
maintenance prices in the industry. P99SE to DXP was announced at $1995, 
and that was after almost three years of support without charge.

Once you have the tool, you will find an appropriate time to retrain.

I upgraded to P99 at the $700 price. But I did not start using it until the 
SE release, which removed many of my inhibitions. For example, P99 used 
only the DDB system, you couldn't use the old so-called Windows File 
System. I didn't like the DDB idea, it seemed like too much trouble and 
definitely too hazardous.

But once I was using 99SE, I quickly abandoned my old habits and ended up 
using the DDB system exclusively. A small bit of trouble sometimes and much 
help most of the time Protel has done this a number of times, dragging 
users into the future kicking and screaming. I've lobbied for better 
communication. Sometimes they goof, as do we all. Remarkably, however, 
they've been known to backtrack and reverse decisions, such as the ATS fiasco.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Ian Wilson
On 09:43 AM 19/09/2003, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax said:

I presume you have someone paying for your seat time, i.e. you have
an employer that's issuing a paycheck whether your jobs are completed
or not and also continues to pay you while you are going up the
learning curve with new software.
That's an assumption that I don't think is true for Mr. Wilson.
You're right.


 I'm an independent contractor and I
don't get paid unless the job gets done, so any time I spend learning
new software and struggling with a learning curve are on my dime.
This is a significant cost to me -- a week of learning time costs me
~$3000 in billable work. There has to be an awful lot of productivity
increase in DXP vs. 99SE to make it a paying proposition for me.
The math seems good but is probably misleading. If you are working 
full-time, day-in and day-out, you are either (1) seriously overworked and 
should probably be thinking about finding someone to do your Protel design 
for you, it can be done and done well by an expert engineer for less than 
your hour rate -- or (2) you don't really work full-time on design, it 
just seems that way.

One thing that is quite true which is brought out by this post: training 
time is usually a more serious cost than the actual cost of the software. 
However, Protel 99SE is ultimately a dead end. It's a very useful tool 
that has not reached the end of its life, but DXP will be the future of 
the tool, or whatever replaces DXP.

Bottom line, if you are going to stay in this business, you are going to 
need to adjust to newer tools anyway. So your cost-benefit analysis was 
not complete. The real question is whether you retrain now or later.

It is a separate question when you choose to upgrade. The smart time to 
upgrade with Protel is when the price of the upgrade seems like it will be 
the lowest. Usually this is early in the product cycle. Rarely Protel has 
held an upgrade special, for example the P98 upgrade to P99 was $1000 at 
the beginning, but was sold for $700 on special for a short time. However, 
Protel never held an upgrade special for P99SE to DXP and the price has 
now gone up to $2495. Let me guess it is not going to go down.
Of course, it may not be DXP that you change to - but I guess the change 
from P99SE to DXP would be generally easier than from P99SE to another 
brand.  There are still people doing production work with very old CAD 
packages - it is possible, it just becomes more difficult. So if you assume 
that the bulk of us have between 15 to 35 years left in the business, how 
many changes in CAD package do you think you, or your underlings, will 
need?  I am interested.  Take into account your guesses at what sort of 
technologies you will be using.

I would love to get together, face to face, computer to computer with a 
very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are non-religious in 
their approach to computer software, and go through a detailed end-to-end 
design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  The warts of 
each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it will ever 
happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn some money 
sometime.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Ian Wilson
On 09:32 AM 19/09/2003, John A. Ross said:
Ian

On most of your comparison between DXP and 99SE you have fair points.

http://www.considered.com.au/DXP_vs_P99SE.htm for those who missed the
link in Ians post before.
But I would need to disagree on the heavy use of queries being
productive. My main frustration is the perception that I spend more time
getting the correct logic for the query, than doing the work itself.
Thanks for the comment.  I can see what you are saying.  I happen not to 
find it too much of an issue, but I certainly don't think this implies you 
are dense (your words) (different people think different ways).

The Find Similar Objects right click is, as I am sure you know, a useful 
inclusion, that helps newcomers get something similar to the P99SE globals 
interface.

Saving regular queries, is useful, as well.

..snip.. I deleted a whole lot of more contentious stuff, enough grenades 
for today.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 04:16 PM 9/18/2003, Back, Norb wrote:

Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7   Service Pack 7  Service Pack 7
Service Pack 7
I don't think it's going to happen, and here is why:

Altium tried to go to ATS, which was, quite simply, a maintenance fee to be 
paid yearly. We didn't like it. But we still have to pay for maintenance, 
someone has to pay those salaries!!!

For a long time, the policy has been free maintenance, free support -- such 
as it is, we can do better ourselves in most cases, which is simply natural 
given how many of us there are compared to Altium employees -- , but 
upgrade charges to new versions.

The advantage of the Protel system is that you have, generally, more 
flexibility as to when you upgrade; further, Altium tends to a lower 
effective maintenance cost than the industry standard, which seems to be 
above 15% per year.

The DXP upgrade seemed expensive because of the number of years that 99SE 
was the latest and greatest without any additional charge

However, if we want SP7 to happen, we should be willing to pay for it. It 
could be done, through the Association 
([EMAIL PROTECTED]), but I'm not holding my breath.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Ian Wilson
On 09:32 AM 19/09/2003, John A. Ross said:
Ian

On most of your comparison between DXP and 99SE you have fair points.

http://www.considered.com.au/DXP_vs_P99SE.htm for those who missed the
link in Ians post before.
Here is something that that others could do.  Take my points as a starter, 
and even if you haven't used any of them or DXP, and assume the features 
work well to start with, and add a $ cost you be prepared to pay for 
them.  Try and be fair and honest with yourself.

After doing so and posting their comments here, I would be happy to pass my 
comments on the particular features that you liked to say if they work well 
in DXP.

I think some of you are thinking I am supporting Altium in this.  I try to 
be honest, analytical and pragmatic, maybe not always successfully.

Ian



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 08:40 PM 9/18/2003, Ian Wilson wrote:
I would love to get together, face to face, computer to computer with a 
very experienced OrCad, and PADs user, both of whom are non-religious in 
their approach to computer software, and go through a detailed end-to-end 
design flow.  Then we would all write it up as an article.  The warts of 
each would be listed and the good points of each.  Doubt it will ever 
happen, unless some magazine commissioned it.  I gotta earn some money 
sometime.
If I were manager of development at Altium or had some such position, *I'd* 
commission the study. And I'd pay very close attention to the results. If 
we had a more active user group, something I'd like to work on if I can 
find time -- difficult now --, we could do it, and then work with Altium to 
make the tool better and better.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-18 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 08:00 AM 9/18/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but my company just dropped 16 Grand on 99 
SE.  We can't possibly afford to upgrade to DXP.  If Protel decides not to 
support SE, we're really hosed.  Guess it's a good thing I found this user 
group (or is it more like a support group?).
(1) Yes, it's good you found this list. As users, we can provide better 
support than Altium could possibly afford to provide (occasionally an issue 
comes up here that user's don't completely answer, and in that case Altium 
people sometimes pop in with an answer; the rarity of that speaks for itself.)

(2) It is a certainty that you have already paid for DXP. Your company 
probably bought the Migration Pack which is another way of slicing the 
same pie. It's been a Protel tradition that if you buy the current product 
and you need an older version, they'll give it to you, no charge For 
example, if you needed to import Tango PCB, you needed Protel 2.8, which 
did the job. The Migration Pack is a marketing device that really amounts 
to the same thing, i.e., if you buy 99SE now, you can have DXP whenever you 
are ready. Since a DXP license is currently $7995 (unless you take 
advantage of various discounts, you should always ask Altium sales about 
such animals, it doesn't cost to ask! Sometimes, for example, they have had 
multiple license discounts, and I know of others that for various reasons I 
don't feel free to discuss), -- ahem, back to my sentence -- and you are in 
the U.S., you *must* have bought DXP or you were radically overcharged. I 
don't think Altium is selling 99SE as such any more.

(3) If what you wanted was 99SE, sellers of surplus licenses have been 
finding it difficult to find buyers lately. I had a 99SE license advertised 
for $4000 or so for a long time; I've just agreed to sell it for $3250. 
Given that a resold license, assuming it is legitimate in the first place, 
which is easy to check, is just as good as an older original license, it 
has the same upgrade rights, etc., and that the upgrade to DXP is currently 
$2495, your company could have saved a fair chunk of change by looking for 
surplus licenses. Since you can always start going with the full-function 
demo on as many seats as you like for at least 30 days, it's quite 
reasonable to spend some time looking for a surplus license and validating 
it before popping for full price. See the mailing list 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] to find sellers or to ask questions 
about resale issues.

(4) There aren't going to be any more service packs for 99SE unless we 
negotiate one with Altium, if that is even possible, and it would certainly 
involve some cost for us. DXP is as much a service pack for 99SE as was 
99SE for Protel 99. At a certain point, Altium says okay, enough free 
upgrades and fixes, next one you pay for. I think that's fair enough. 99SE 
was brought by SP6 to a reasonable point of relative stability and 
function, and we didn't pay anything for those first six service packs. 
Sure, it's not perfect, but Altium does have to draw the line somewhere.

Another brought up Microsoft practice. Microsoft may issue patches for some 
older versions, but these either involve critical security issues or, for 
the most part, I think those versions are still for sale, such as Windows 
2000. Further, they have so many more users and capital than Altium that 
it's ridiculous to think of them in the same terms.

Anyway, I like to verify, sometimes, that I'm not just blowing smoke, so I 
went to Microsoft Support, specifically to the Windows 98 support section. 
Windows 98SE is roughly equivalent in age to Protel 99 and, according to 
the site, If you are running Windows 98 Second Edition you do not need 
Customer Service Pack -- all of the updates in the Customer Service Pack 
are included on your system. Updates that are available beyond that are 
really system extensions where Microsoft wants you to be using, for 
example, their latest browser, or there are security fixes.

Microsoft does not appear to be issuing any more ordinary bug fixes for 
Windows 98.



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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread ravenrux
I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that it does indeed 
have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase my entire database 
(admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.

I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and Protel.  Since then 
it has been MUCH better behaved.

Michael Badillo

From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

Hi again.

I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).

I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part 
field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and 
'class/rating' for field 3.
Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those 
fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked their 
'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.

When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an 
asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and three 
asterisks on top of one another.
The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain asterisks 
(which is NOT expected).

When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't be 
there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position (which 
is _very_ strange, to say the least).

The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and 
then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields. 
Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with 
a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...

But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square one.

Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither 
does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.

Which brings me to these questions:
Did I miss a setting somewhere?
Did anyone see this before?
Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.


Leo Potjewijd
hardware designer
IE Keyprocessor bv.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+31 20 4620700






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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Brian Guralnick
I've also noticed this occasionally during some large undo operations.

After rotating, once, or, twice, a section of a PCB with, say, 100-200
components, after a large undo, around 5-15 of the components wouldn't
un-rotate properly, or completely.

Weird, Hun?

_
Brian Guralnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that it
does indeed have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase my
entire database (admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.

 I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and Protel.
Since then it has been MUCH better behaved.

 Michael Badillo

 From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 Hi again.

 I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).

 I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part
 field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and
 'class/rating' for field 3.
 Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those
 fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked their
 'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.

 When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an
 asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and
three
 asterisks on top of one another.
 The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain asterisks
 (which is NOT expected).

 When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't be
 there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position (which
 is _very_ strange, to say the least).

 The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and
 then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
 Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with
 a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...

 But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square one.

 Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither
 does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.

 Which brings me to these questions:
 Did I miss a setting somewhere?
 Did anyone see this before?
 Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.


 Leo Potjewijd
 hardware designer
 IE Keyprocessor bv.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 +31 20 4620700








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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread JaMi Smith
P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

Duh?

You guys just now figuring that out?

Unfortunately, it appears to be hereditary . . .

I want my Service Pack 7 . . .


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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Brian Guralnick

 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .


Didn't Protel Miss-leadingly announce at 1 time that they would release a
SP7?

That was the time when I decided not to upgrade to DXP until SP7 came
about...

_
Brian Guralnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 Duh?

 You guys just now figuring that out?

 Unfortunately, it appears to be hereditary . . .

 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .




* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Igor Gmitrovic
Maybe they were not mis-leading us intentionally. They changed their policies a lot 
recently, with ATS and DXP and all, so P99SE got a boot, as they could not afford to 
support two versions of SW. We might want to follow this path, though, to get SP7. It 
seems to be ideallistic cause now, but it would still be worthwile for us here.

Igor 

-Original Message-
From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2003 10:30 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?



 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .


Didn't Protel Miss-leadingly announce at 1 time that they would release a
SP7?

That was the time when I decided not to upgrade to DXP until SP7 came
about...

_
Brian Guralnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

 Duh?

 You guys just now figuring that out?

 Unfortunately, it appears to be hereditary . . .

 I want my Service Pack 7 . . .





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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread brendon . slade
This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a buglett 
(I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the default 
primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the 
PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there was one 
part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.  What I 
do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all schematic 
parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes: {*=}.

...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it 
and 
then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields. 
Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with 

a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...

 this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel caches 
placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic editor, it 
is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at the mo). 
Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts the 
cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts function.

I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire databse 
file etc vanished.  This occured when Protel crashed and gave the option 
to ignore and continue or close.  This one time I chose to close and 
it then kindly offered to save my work that had changed.  The mistake in 
this case is to select save (and destroy).

HTH
Brendon.




[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
09/18/03 02:00 AM
Please respond to
Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]


To
Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc

Subject
Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?






I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that it 
does indeed have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase my 
entire database (admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.

I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and Protel. 
Since then it has been MUCH better behaved.

Michael Badillo

From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

Hi again.

I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).

I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part 
field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and 
'class/rating' for field 3.
Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those 
fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked their 
'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.

When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an 
asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and 
three 
asterisks on top of one another.
The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain asterisks 
(which is NOT expected).

When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't be 

there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position (which 
is _very_ strange, to say the least).

The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and 
then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields. 
Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with 

a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...

But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square one.

Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither 
does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.

Which brings me to these questions:
Did I miss a setting somewhere?
Did anyone see this before?
Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.


Leo Potjewijd
hardware designer
IE Keyprocessor bv.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+31 20 4620700








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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Dennis Saputelli
i would still love to see one (SP7)
MS still patches their old SW (no flames please! :) )

but i do not at all remember them ever saying that there would be one

in fact i think their utter silence re repeated inquiries on 
the topic spoke for itself

ds

Igor Gmitrovic wrote:
 
 Maybe they were not mis-leading us intentionally. They changed their policies a lot 
 recently, with ATS and DXP and all, so P99SE got a boot, as they could not afford to 
 support two versions of SW. We might want to follow this path, though, to get SP7. 
 It seems to be ideallistic cause now, but it would still be worthwile for us here.
 
 Igor
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2003 10:30 AM
 To: Protel EDA Forum
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 
  I want my Service Pack 7 . . .
 
 
 Didn't Protel Miss-leadingly announce at 1 time that they would release a
 SP7?
 
 That was the time when I decided not to upgrade to DXP until SP7 came
 about...
 
 _
 Brian Guralnick
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 - Original Message -
 From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  Duh?
 
  You guys just now figuring that out?
 
  Unfortunately, it appears to be hereditary . . .
 
  I want my Service Pack 7 . . .
 

-- 
Dennis Saputelli

  = send only plain text please! - no HTML ==
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com  
2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480
San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003


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* mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Dennis Saputelli
i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file cache

closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i
recall

you have to close the whole protel session
i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have not
found it to be much of a problem

please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir

Dennis Saputelli

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a buglett
 (I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the default
 primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the
 PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there was one
 part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.  What I
 do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all schematic
 parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes: {*=}.
 
 ...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it
 and
 then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
 Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with
 
 a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
  this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel caches
 placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic editor, it
 is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at the mo).
 Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts the
 cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts function.
 
 I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire databse
 file etc vanished.  This occured when Protel crashed and gave the option
 to ignore and continue or close.  This one time I chose to close and
 it then kindly offered to save my work that had changed.  The mistake in
 this case is to select save (and destroy).
 
 HTH
 Brendon.
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 09/18/03 02:00 AM
 Please respond to
 Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 To
 Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 cc
 
 Subject
 Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that it
 does indeed have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase my
 entire database (admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.
 
 I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and Protel.
 Since then it has been MUCH better behaved.
 
 Michael Badillo
 
 From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
 Hi again.
 
 I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).
 
 I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part
 field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and
 'class/rating' for field 3.
 Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those
 fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked their
 'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.
 
 When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an
 asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and
 three
 asterisks on top of one another.
 The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain asterisks
 (which is NOT expected).
 
 When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't be
 
 there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position (which
 is _very_ strange, to say the least).
 
 The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and
 then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
 Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or with
 
 a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
 But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square one.
 
 Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither
 does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.
 
 Which brings me to these questions:
 Did I miss a setting somewhere?
 Did anyone see this before?
 Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.
 
 Leo Potjewijd
 hardware designer
 IE Keyprocessor bv.
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 +31 20 4620700

-- 
Dennis Saputelli

  = send only plain text please! - no HTML ==
___
Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com  
2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480
San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003


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* To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*
* To leave this list visit:
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*
* Contact the list manager:
* mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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* Forum Guidelines Rules:
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Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?

2003-09-17 Thread Brian Guralnick
Don't forget to End Process 'Client99.exe'!!

_
Brian Guralnick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?


 i believe there is both a in memory cache and an in schematic file cache

 closing and reopening the file does not clear the memory cache as i
 recall

 you have to close the whole protel session
 i think this was cleaned up somewhere along the way so that i have not
 found it to be much of a problem

 please correct me if i am wrong about this behavoir

 Dennis Saputelli

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  This probably strays from your query, but from memory, there was a
buglett
  (I'm not sure if it's been fixed) in that where you define the default
  primitives in the schematic editor for schematic parts, one of the
  PartFields was incorrectly mapped to another.  Therefore, there was one
  part field you could not define, and another that appeared twice.  What
I
  do now at the end of a design is to do a global change to all schematic
  parts and replace all part fields matched by: * with attributes: {*=}.
 
  ...The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it
  and
  then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
  Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or
with
 
  a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
   this mysterious behaviour may have to do with how Protel caches
  placed library parts.  Once you place a part in the schematic editor, it
  is cached in memory somewhere (escapes me as to where exactly at the
mo).
  Even when you place a part supposedly from the library, it adopts the
  cached part.  This is overridden with the update cached parts
function.
 
  I've also experienced Michael's situation once where an entire databse
  file etc vanished.  This occured when Protel crashed and gave the option
  to ignore and continue or close.  This one time I chose to close and
  it then kindly offered to save my work that had changed.  The mistake in
  this case is to select save (and destroy).
 
  HTH
  Brendon.
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  09/18/03 02:00 AM
  Please respond to
  Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  To
  Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  cc
 
  Subject
  Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  I have noticed (and I have only been using 99 SE for a few months) that
it
  does indeed have Altzheimer's.  I have had the program completely erase
my
  entire database (admittedly it wasn't large) including the backups.
 
  I recently had a harddrive crash and had to reinstall Windows and
Protel.
  Since then it has been MUCH better behaved.
 
  Michael Badillo
 
  From: Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: 2003/09/17 Wed AM 08:08:16 EDT
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
 
  Hi again.
 
  I just noticed sometghing strange with the Sch editor of P99SE(SP6).
 
  I set up my schematic libraries (all in one database) with custom part
  field names: 'tolerance'  for field 1, 'power/voltage' for field 2 and
  'class/rating' for field 3.
  Since these fields can be blank for a lot of parts, I further set those
  fields to blanks in the default primitives dialog. I also unchecked
their
  'hide' checkbox to facilitate later editing.
 
  When I place a part, the first time around these fields show up as an
  asterisk on the same location as the part type; ie I have a value and
  three
  asterisks on top of one another.
  The fields are not hidden (as expected), but the fields contain
asterisks
  (which is NOT expected).
 
  When I rotate the part or left-click again the asterisks that shouldn't
be
 
  there in the first place suddenly show up at their normal position
(which
  is _very_ strange, to say the least).
 
  The weirdest thing however is that when I place the part, delete it and
  then place it again all behaves as expected: non-hidden, blank fields.
  Every subsequently placed instance of that part (wether left-click or
with
 
  a new place command) is then OK, even when rotated...
 
  But when I place some other part from any library I'm back at square
one.
 
  Closing libraries, databases or restarting Protel doesn't help; neither
  does 'update parts in cache' or 'update schematics'.
 
  Which brings me to these questions:
  Did I miss a setting somewhere?
  Did anyone see this before?
  Is there a solution to this? This is quite annoying.
 
  Leo Potjewijd
  hardware designer
  IE Keyprocessor bv.
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  +31 20 4620700

 -- 
 Dennis Saputelli

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 Integrated Controls, Inc.   www.integratedcontrolsinc.com
 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480
 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647