Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
-Original Message- From: Protel Hell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN I know at least one person has made Top Gun using PADS. I believe all others who have made Top Gun used what would be considered high end ($) CAD. If you want to get the job done quickly and accurately, that is what you want to use. If you cannot afford one of these high end tools, If you have more time than money then you will be forced to use a low cost CAD, but be aware that in the end you will spend almost as much, it's just that you will be spending your time instead of money. And in time to market, you will almost certainly loose. snip So Bill didn't win the Top Gun title was his resulting board design functional? Isn't that what really counts? Sure it would be nice to meet all the ideals of a competition and win. But it is hard to justify large amounts of money for someone who is doing double sided, non-high frequency boards. And if you can do high frequency, impedance control designs that work in Protel, all the better. There's a big range of requirements out there... one size does not fit all. duane foster * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
I have found the TOP GUN competitions very interesting, as well as the discussion here. But in my case, the types of designs that are used in the competition are totally irrelevant to me and the type of designs I actually do. Everything we do is manually routed, predominantly because there's usually an equal mixture of analog/power/mechanical components that autorouters just can't deal with. Our designs are usually space- constrained too and often requires a minimum board space/shortest tracks and fewest vias mentality. We also do very few boards greater than 4 layers. In that regard I think Protel99SE is a great tool, it's manual routing tools are excellent. As an example, my last big board design was 4 layers, 8 x 10 and about 700 components (many of them power and analog). The schematic was 23 B size sheets. Here's a screen shot of the board: http://www.mps-design.com/misc-images/M2CPU.bmp I'm not sure anyone could layout that kind of board much faster or better with any other tool, regardless of the cost of the tool. I think the value of the tool depends on how closely it matches your intended use. Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems On Thu, 13 May 2004 10:30:18 -0500, Protel Hell wrote: I know at least one person has made Top Gun using PADS. I believe all others who have made Top Gun used what would be considered high end ($) CAD. If you want to get the job done quickly and accurately, that is what you want to use. If you cannot afford one of these high end tools, If you have more time than money then you will be forced to use a low cost CAD, but be aware that in the end you will spend almost as much, it's just that you will be spending your time instead of money. And in time to market, you will almost certainly loose. I think that Bills experience pretty much proves my point, he is a very experienced designer, a Top Gun in all measure, but in competing against other Top Guns, he was basically in a shootout at the OK corral armed with a slingshot while others had automatic high caliber weapons. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
Contests only are good for the day of the contest. A million things can affect the outcome of a contest. One guy who was competing could not get his machine to boot up... he wasted hours of precious time troubleshooting it before he could even get started That's just the nature of contests... there is luck involved, even though most of us would like to think it was pure skill. It's a horse race. Protel can do 90% of the things that the other cad systems do... Not very many of us are working in service bureaus, where the emphasis on speed can be critical. Protel meets the majority of the needs of the majority of designers that use it. We would like to see them fix the issues we have and add the features we want and then we think it would be awesome. Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com -Original Message- From: Duane Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:29 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN -Original Message- From: Protel Hell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN I know at least one person has made Top Gun using PADS. I believe all others who have made Top Gun used what would be considered high end ($) CAD. If you want to get the job done quickly and accurately, that is what you want to use. If you cannot afford one of these high end tools, If you have more time than money then you will be forced to use a low cost CAD, but be aware that in the end you will spend almost as much, it's just that you will be spending your time instead of money. And in time to market, you will almost certainly loose. snip So Bill didn't win the Top Gun title was his resulting board design functional? Isn't that what really counts? Sure it would be nice to meet all the ideals of a competition and win. But it is hard to justify large amounts of money for someone who is doing double sided, non-high frequency boards. And if you can do high frequency, impedance control designs that work in Protel, all the better. There's a big range of requirements out there... one size does not fit all. duane foster * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
has anyone ever made PCD magazine Top Gun using Protel (anything) that should tell you allot since the people that compete for this are all experienced designers, the only difference really is the tool. you get what you pay for, when buying CAD you should spend what you can afford, there is no free lunch, if there was the more expensive ones could not exist TA TA TA, wrong assumption Mr Brooks who frequents this forum has slain the Mentor TOP GUNS. Has it ever occurred to you that Cadence and Mentor simply throw more money and resources at this contest. Thus stackiing the deck with Mentor users. You havent seen a PADs user compete or win in the past few years.why because PADS went belly up. Mike Reagan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
Thanks for the kind words Mike, however I must clear up the record... My foray into the TOP GUN competition did not result in my getting the coveted flight jacket, but I did use the tool (99SE) successfully in competition. It was an honor in itself to get the invitation to compete, they do not choose contestants lightly, all were seasoned veterans of the PCB industry. The contest involved a multilayer, mixed signal, matched impedance differential pair, board layout of a Video Processor circuit on a PCI card and we had 16 hours to complete it. (The board design changes each year so don't think you can study up on video processors and get an edge) Of the nine participants only 2 are chosen to receive the jackets. Both winners were using the Veribest tool. I was the only Protel user. (Obviously the Protel Router didn't help me much...) I had to hand route many of the lines... That would explain why I didn't place higher or actually win because it slowed me down. Mentor bought Veribest very shortly after that competition and Mentor did not participate in the CAD tool benchmark contest that year. Cadence won that year. It was March of 2000. The 2 hall of fame inductees were Rick Dachauer, RockSolid Design, Mountain View, CA and Wayne Pulliam, AMD, Round Rock, TX... Both Mentor users now. But I must say I was in there with some very experienced designers that all tried very hard to win the competiton. It seems the Veribest router made all the difference in this case. I believe that the cad tools represented there in the TOP GUN contest were Protel, ORCAD, PCAD, PADS, and Veribest. By the way, Mentor now owns PADS too... it's now their low end tool. Your assessment of the money that's gets thrown at the problem is pretty accurate however. They do have deep pockets, and their customers pay up to the tune of about 40K a seat and very high maintenance and training costs. I do not know if any other designer besides myself has attempted the TOP GUN competition with Protel again. I can tell you though, in my opinion, the Situs router would really need to improve to be able to compete with the other tools that are available now. The concept of the 'TOP GUN' is more targeted towards service bureau abilities. FAST, ACCURATE, and ON TIME. This is the goal of the TOP GUN and if you hope to have a chance at getting the flight jacket, you need to be 'FLYING' a very fast, capable tool. I was greatly honored to compete against the guys that put it all on the line there and I was told I have an open invitation to come back and compete again at any time which I may do again if this PCB design program ever matures. In the mean time, it gets my work done and for that, I cannot complain. All the best, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 -Original Message- From: Mike Reagan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:51 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN has anyone ever made PCD magazine Top Gun using Protel (anything) that should tell you allot since the people that compete for this are all experienced designers, the only difference really is the tool. you get what you pay for, when buying CAD you should spend what you can afford, there is no free lunch, if there was the more expensive ones could not exist TA TA TA, wrong assumption Mr Brooks who frequents this forum has slain the Mentor TOP GUNS. Has it ever occurred to you that Cadence and Mentor simply throw more money and resources at this contest. Thus stackiing the deck with Mentor users. You havent seen a PADs user compete or win in the past few years.why because PADS went belly up. Mike Reagan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
At 10:51 AM 5/12/2004, Mike Reagan wrote: [Protel Hell wrote:] has anyone ever made PCD magazine Top Gun using Protel (anything) that should tell you allot since the people that compete for this are all experienced designers, the only difference really is the tool. you get what you pay for, when buying CAD you should spend what you can afford, there is no free lunch, if there was the more expensive ones could not exist I was tempted to comment on the original post. First of all, a contest like Top Gun depends, as I recall, on a single design. A very competent designer may make a wrong turn early in a design and take substantially longer than normal. It can happen to anyone. Further, the differences between CAD systems become less drastic in the hands of an experienced user (or salesman, for that matter). Some sytems are better for some kinds of design than others. If you want to do a 50-layer ceramic module, you are probably out of luck if you are using Protel, not enough layers. But if you want to do a design within Protel's range of efficiency, I'd venture that, other things being equal, a Protel designer does have a shot at completing the design fastest. Other things are rarely equal, however. You get what you pay for is a dangerous rule of thumb. There is no guarantee whatsoever that you will get more by paying more. Yes, *in general*, a quality tool will cost more than one that is less expensive. But in general does not mean in every case. Sometimes what you get by spending more is more headache. I've generally made the claim that, to really compare Protel with other tools, ask users who have become *expert* with both Protel and the other tool. *Also* ask relatively new users, from the latter you will learn something about how easy the tool is to learn, though you may be able to glean something about that yourself from a demo version. In the end, though, presumably one wants to become an expert user, and any tool in the hand of an expert user is better than most any tool in the hands of someone who is not an expert. It is laughable to see program reviews done by people who clearly were not familiar with the tool, so they will make gaffes like saying, You can't do this in Tool X, or It is clumsy and awkward to do this in Tool X, when, in fact, once one knows the program, one can not only do the thing but can do it quickly and efficiently. On the other hand, if you are only going to use a tool occasionally, ease of use is going to be very important. An expert and frequent user may have at hand the shortcuts to drill through a whole host of menus to get to exactly what is easy. For them, it is a flash, for you, it may be *much* more work, just to find out how to do a thing, as you go down blind alleys, trying this or that only to find it doesn't do what you expected. My worry about DXP is that, while it has clearly become a more powerful program (and thus faster in the hands of an expert user), it has also become less transparent, less intuitive, particularly for 99SE upgraders. I think this can be remedied; meanwhile it must be noted that many of the changes to DXP represent things we wanted as users. At the same time, certain fundamental ways that the program behaves were changed. Global Edits were available in 99SE by a very visible Global button at the bottom of almost every primitive edit screen. It was not at all difficult to find the command, and not at all difficult to use. Now, that button is gone. Instead there is another procedure. Once you know it, it *is* more powerful, but If you are faced with the program, knowing about 99SE Global Edits, you can scratch your head a long time without ever finding the command. The solution is to read *and practice* the relevant Knowledge Base items. When you are in the middle of a job, if you are so unfortunate as to have to learn DXP on the fly, in the middle of real work, this can be quite a burden TA TA TA, wrong assumption Mr Brooks who frequents this forum has slain the Mentor TOP GUNS. Has it ever occurred to you that Cadence and Mentor simply throw more money and resources at this contest. Thus stackiing the deck with Mentor users. You havent seen a PADs user compete or win in the past few years.why because PADS went belly up. The contests are relevant when the contestants are balanced. So the contest might be relevant when comparing Mentor and Cadence, not very relevant outside that. And, yes, the cost of those programs is *much* higher than that of Protel, so it would not be surprising to find at least a small increase in productivity. Even a small increase, in a contest, can create a winner; to understand the meaning of any particular Top Gun contest, I'd want to look at the number of contestants using each program, as well as the differences in performance results. How did the average Mentor designer do, vs the average Cadence designer? And if the standard design is
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
In the case of PCB WEST TOP GUN, the actual design is held in confidence for obvious reasons. You are given a BOM with the uncommon parts data sheets at the beginning prior to the contest. This allows you to make your library parts that may not already be in your library. The schematic and board outline is delivered at the start of the contest. You are given 16 hours, (two 8 hour days) to complete the board. There is a design change or ECO about 3/4ths the way through the contest... You must also deal with that. They change the designs year to year, but the difficulty is in the same general level. They try to even the playing field by choosing a broad selection of design features to give unfair advantage to no one. Some analog, some digital, some RF, some mixed signal, some advanced features, it generally is a medium to tough board. You must make some library parts, You will have to use all the features of the tool. You must finish and turn in all the deliverables before the deadline. Each designer uses their own familiar tool and brings it to the contest. The CAD station is under lock and key when not involved in the actual contest. The overall contest is monitored by experienced TOP GUN designers who volunteered who judge the boards and documentation with the help a high end CAM station. The idea was to pit designer/tool against designer/tool. In the case you suggest it would really be designer vs designer the tool would be the same. TOP Protel Designer would be a prestigious award for a PCB designer who used Protel. A good idea. Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 -Original Message- From: Abd ulRahman Lomax [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN And if the standard design is available, it might be possible for other CAD systems to hold their own investigation by holding, say, a Protel Top Designer contest *using the same design information.* Such a contest could be held by the Protel User Association; certainly I'd be interested in the results. In fact, I'd like to participate (though I wouldn't expect to be a winner, my chops are a bit rusty.) Is the Top Gun design source information available? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
Yea, well imagine if you had a router, you would have buried all of the competition. Read into that Protel. Bill check out ConnectEDA's Electra's router. Mike (smaller CID) -Original Message- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:23 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN Thanks for the kind words Mike, however I must clear up the record... My foray into the TOP GUN competition did not result in my getting the coveted flight jacket, but I did use the tool (99SE) successfully in competition. It was an honor in itself to get the invitation to compete, they do not choose contestants lightly, all were seasoned veterans of the PCB industry. The contest involved a multilayer, mixed signal, matched impedance differential pair, board layout of a Video Processor circuit on a PCI card and we had 16 hours to complete it. (The board design changes each year so don't think you can study up on video processors and get an edge) Of the nine participants only 2 are chosen to receive the jackets. Both winners were using the Veribest tool. I was the only Protel user. (Obviously the Protel Router didn't help me much...) I had to hand route many of the lines... That would explain why I didn't place higher or actually win because it slowed me down. Mentor bought Veribest very shortly after that competition and Mentor did not participate in the CAD tool benchmark contest that year. Cadence won that year. It was March of 2000. The 2 hall of fame inductees were Rick Dachauer, RockSolid Design, Mountain View, CA and Wayne Pulliam, AMD, Round Rock, TX... Both Mentor users now. But I must say I was in there with some very experienced designers that all tried very hard to win the competiton. It seems the Veribest router made all the difference in this case. I believe that the cad tools represented there in the TOP GUN contest were Protel, ORCAD, PCAD, PADS, and Veribest. By the way, Mentor now owns PADS too... it's now their low end tool. Your assessment of the money that's gets thrown at the problem is pretty accurate however. They do have deep pockets, and their customers pay up to the tune of about 40K a seat and very high maintenance and training costs. I do not know if any other designer besides myself has attempted the TOP GUN competition with Protel again. I can tell you though, in my opinion, the Situs router would really need to improve to be able to compete with the other tools that are available now. The concept of the 'TOP GUN' is more targeted towards service bureau abilities. FAST, ACCURATE, and ON TIME. This is the goal of the TOP GUN and if you hope to have a chance at getting the flight jacket, you need to be 'FLYING' a very fast, capable tool. I was greatly honored to compete against the guys that put it all on the line there and I was told I have an open invitation to come back and compete again at any time which I may do again if this PCB design program ever matures. In the mean time, it gets my work done and for that, I cannot complain. All the best, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 -Original Message- From: Mike Reagan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:51 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN has anyone ever made PCD magazine Top Gun using Protel (anything) that should tell you allot since the people that compete for this are all experienced designers, the only difference really is the tool. you get what you pay for, when buying CAD you should spend what you can afford, there is no free lunch, if there was the more expensive ones could not exist TA TA TA, wrong assumption Mr Brooks who frequents this forum has slain the Mentor TOP GUNS. Has it ever occurred to you that Cadence and Mentor simply throw more money and resources at this contest. Thus stackiing the deck with Mentor users. You havent seen a PADs user compete or win in the past few years.why because PADS went belly up. Mike Reagan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel TOP GUN
At 02:34 PM 5/12/2004, Brooks,Bill wrote: In the case of PCB WEST TOP GUN, the actual design is held in confidence for obvious reasons. It's obvious why it would be held in confidence prior to the contest. Is it kept in confidence for all time after that? If it were available, then one could hold a virtual contest, not the same (because not subject to the same monitored time conditions, etc.) but still useful to those who tried it. If we were able to obtain the contest design specifications, we could, for example, have a number of experienced designers try to design that board with Protel. If the results are honestly reported (as I think they would be), we could then have some basis for comparison between the tools better than pure speculation! Again, if the design files are publically available, there is no way to have a buttoned-down, no-way-to-cheat contest. We *could* come up with our own design files, but this would (a) be quite a bit of work in itself and (b) not give us the comparative data. My interest here would not be in producing some kind of promotional material for Protel, but in understanding how Protel stands in comparison to the other tools, in the hands of experienced users. Protel is *much* less expensive than the tools used by the winners, so I don't expect Protel to be able to beat the design times, particularly given the autorouter situation. On the other hand, perhaps we might be surprised. More likely, though, we might come up with something like you can get a faster tool than Protel, and this is how much more it is going to cost you, and this is how many years -- or this is how much total design volume -- it will take to recover the additional cost (if ever). The idea was to pit designer/tool against designer/tool. In the case you suggest it would really be designer vs designer the tool would be the same. TOP Protel Designer would be a prestigious award for a PCB designer who used Protel. A good idea. For the TOP Protel Designer contest I think we'd need to create our own design, because the temptation and potential reward for cheating would be too much for us to be secure from it. Would we need to hold the contest at some conference? Perhaps If the design were one that could reasonably be done in 8 hours, or the contest were broken into pieces with each piece being about eight hours of work, we might be able to just release the design information by email. This could favor designers living in one part of the world Yes, designers will have machines of different speeds, and designer collaboration might be a possible way of cheating (if it were against the rules) ... on the other hand, if you can get the design done faster by collaborating, maybe this itself would be of interest. Perhaps the designers would be required to submit hourly progress files. That would throw the kibosh on some kinds of collaboration. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
