Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Jim, There are more than 1000 Certified Designers worldwide. Personally, I'm proud to be one of them. As far as I know,it is the only international qualification, recognising the baseline skills and knowledge required to be a board designer. Phil. Phil Dutton C.I.D. Senior CAD Technician IPC Certified Interconnect Designer Tenix Defence Systems Pty Ltd Systems Division - Adelaide Second Avenue, Technology Park, Mawson Lakes. SOUTH AUSTRALIA 5095 -Original Message- From: Jim McGrath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:20 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers Brad, If I recall correctly the IPC-D-350 was supposed to be a format that would allow any CAD package to exchange data (in fact whole designs) with any other CAD package. Talk about Utopia! It never caught on or hasn't yet. The IPC needs more teeth to be truly our guiding force. Most will agree that their specs are a good place to start but not the end all in information. Unless the many component makers adopt their standards they cannot be completely trusted. I can't tell you how many times A part is call SOIC-16 and actually is quite differnet in reallity. Another good example is the design cetification. How many Designers are certifiied worldwide? 50 maybe? Don't get me wrong I would LOVE to have a definitive force in our field but I just don't see it. I hope I haven't offended anyone but that is the way I feel. Regards, Jim McGrath CAD Connections, Inc. Brad Velander wrote: Jim, to a degree you are correct but I don't see where they make any serious money from adaptation of their standards. The moneys derived from selling the standards to people who might develop output software and then a limited number of designers who have to know what the standard says, at best only covers their expenses. Remember somebody had to write the standard and meet with the other authors, sleep , eat and drink while doing so. Brad Velander, Lead PCB Designer, Norsat International Inc., #300 - 4401 Still Creek Dr., Burnaby, B.C., V5C 6G9. Tel. (604) 292-9089 direct Fax (604) 292-9010 website www.norsat.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Jeff, here is my take on this issue. Yes there are a number of competitive file format systems to that which we call generically Gerber. I may have some of them wrong here but there are various formats a couple of IPC initiatives, ODB++, Gemcam, oh forget it I don't want to try remembering them all. The problem is one of generic acceptance throughout the industry. Different groups with varied interests have developed these systems to better convey everything from bare board design intent to manufacturing and testing issues. Each system has various strengths and weaknesses, these probably align with the primary intent of the group developing the system. The CAD vendors are caught in the middle of these competing systems. What do their customers want, what are their competitors doing, etc.. They do not want to adopt the next orphaned standard, they want to pick the winning standard and put their efforts into it alone. The fabricators are also caught between the competitive standards. Where do they invest their money and efforts and no doubt there will still be a large number of their customers who just stick to Gerber because it is simple and well know. Thus this whole affair goes round and round in circles. The only people who care are those who already have a financial investment in one standard or the other. The only people who typically adopt these new standards are people who have had certain difficulties that cost them big $s and they believe the new standard will stop them from experiencing the same problem again. Well that's my view point, any others? Brad Velander, Lead PCB Designer, Norsat International Inc., #300 - 4401 Still Creek Dr., Burnaby, B.C., V5C 6G9. Tel. (604) 292-9089 direct Fax (604) 292-9010 website www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Adolphs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:31 AM To: Protel EDA Forum (E-mail) Subject: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers Is anyone using any format other than Gerber? At a IPC workshop they mentioned file formats which are much better than Gerber. I stated that all the PCB manufacturers seem to only mention Gerber formats. I don't think they want the expense of changing software for their equipment in a very competitive market. The IPC speaker was clearly frustrated that Gerber is still used when they have created must better software (IPC calls the software GenCAM 2001). Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Brad, Unfortunately it has been my experience that IPC = Dollars. Maybe they have a vested interest and just want another thing to charge for. That's my take anyway. Regards, Jim McGrath CAD Connections Inc. Brad Velander wrote: Jeff, here is my take on this issue. Yes there are a number of competitive file format systems to that which we call generically Gerber. I may have some of them wrong here but there are various formats a couple of IPC initiatives, ODB++, Gemcam, oh forget it I don't want to try remembering them all. The problem is one of generic acceptance throughout the industry. Different groups with varied interests have developed these systems to better convey everything from bare board design intent to manufacturing and testing issues. Each system has various strengths and weaknesses, these probably align with the primary intent of the group developing the system. The CAD vendors are caught in the middle of these competing systems. What do their customers want, what are their competitors doing, etc.. They do not want to adopt the next orphaned standard, they want to pick the winning standard and put their efforts into it alone. The fabricators are also caught between the competitive standards. Where do they invest their money and efforts and no doubt there will still be a large number of their customers who just stick to Gerber because it is simple and well know. Thus this whole affair goes round and round in circles. The only people who care are those who already have a financial investment in one standard or the other. The only people who typically adopt these new standards are people who have had certain difficulties that cost them big $s and they believe the new standard will stop them from experiencing the same problem again. Well that's my view point, any others? Brad Velander, Lead PCB Designer, Norsat International Inc., #300 - 4401 Still Creek Dr., Burnaby, B.C., V5C 6G9. Tel. (604) 292-9089 direct Fax (604) 292-9010 website www.norsat.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
I seem to recall attending a seminar back in 1993 where Dieter Bergman of the IPC was frustrated that the industry had not stopped using Gerber when the IPC-D-350 that he had personally helped developed was far Superior. I believe that GenCAM is the direct descendant of IPC-D-350. Steve Smith Product Engineer Staco Energy Products Co. Web Site: www.stacoenergy.com -Original Message- From: Andrew J Jenkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 1:19 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers On 08:30 AM 7/19/2001 -0400, Jeff Adolphs wrote: ... The IPC speaker was clearly frustrated that Gerber is still used when they have created must better software (IPC calls the software GenCAM 2001). Hmm...Is that because it's a better format, or because the IPC speaker is the author of this new standard? Inquiring minds... aj * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
It was Dieter Bergman I was talking about at a IPC Workshop April 2001. He also said (I'm paraphrasing) All of the PCB Designers need to apply pressure on the PCB Manufacturers to start accepting GenCAM which is far superior and will give us much better PCBs. Garbage in - garbage out. Quality in - quality out. Gerber simply does not supply enough data and can be misinterpreted in many ways. Dieter was very interesting and I did learn some things. I looking forward to the next workshop I can attend. Probably around 2011!! Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com -Original Message- From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 1:37 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers I seem to recall attending a seminar back in 1993 where Dieter Bergman of the IPC was frustrated that the industry had not stopped using Gerber when the IPC-D-350 that he had personally helped developed was far Superior. I believe that GenCAM is the direct descendant of IPC-D-350. Steve Smith Product Engineer Staco Energy Products Co. Web Site: www.stacoenergy.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
I was at that same IPC designers conference. It was not a IPC conference but it was sponsored by the designers council which does not have a direct affiliation to IPC, they are there own entity, and just carry the IPC name. There where two topics that related to data transfer, one by Deter Bergman outlining GEN-CAM which is a internet based data transfer. I will not go into great detail on it but if interested here is the web sight www.gencam.org you probably will get a better description on what it really is. The other was from Patrick McGoff from Valor ODB++. The support for dropping gerber data is strong and it is slowly gaining support from the bare board manufactures. Right now we send gerber data for the bare board, to my understanding they basically have to relayout the board in there cam system to get what they need to produce the board. They are basically repeating what we have just done, and some times that's where changes or accidents could have been made. Tom Hausherr was a speaker on an unrelated subject but gave a actual testimony that a reputable board manufacture in TX has a bulletin board with CO. records for the quickest a board has been layed out. For gerber data it is 4 hours ODB++ 1 hr, when you look at that and consider the above the push for smart data is pretty good. It all comes down how fast do you want it, and can it cut the price of production. Just my 2c Ted -Original Message- From: Jim McGrath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 3:37 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers Brad, Unfortunately it has been my experience that IPC = Dollars. Maybe they have a vested interest and just want another thing to charge for. That's my take anyway. Regards, Jim McGrath CAD Connections Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Brad, GenCAM did look much less subject to misinterpretation because of the improved format. GenCAM capabilities looked very impressive at the IPC Workshop but, if the PCB Manufacturers don't have GenCAM what's the point? By the way, Protel PCB files can be converted to GenCAM so no problem with our software. Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com -Original Message- From: Brad Velander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:41 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers Jeff, one point to consider here. Yes the new standards may be more robust and 'less' prone to misinterpretation, if they are very well written. However Gerber has been around for decades in it's varied and different formats, it is still being misinterpreted. How would Dieter brush off the possibility that Gencam or other new standard would also not possibly be misinterpreted even 10 years down the road? Utopian divine intervention on behalf of the new standard over the old standards? Brad Velander, Lead PCB Designer, Norsat International Inc., #300 - 4401 Still Creek Dr., Burnaby, B.C., V5C 6G9. Tel. (604) 292-9089 direct Fax (604) 292-9010 website www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Adolphs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:00 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers It was Dieter Bergman I was talking about at a IPC Workshop April 2001. He also said (I'm paraphrasing) All of the PCB Designers need to apply pressure on the PCB Manufacturers to start accepting GenCAM which is far superior and will give us much better PCBs. Garbage in - garbage out. Quality in - quality out. Gerber simply does not supply enough data and can be misinterpreted in many ways. Dieter was very interesting and I did learn some things. I looking forward to the next workshop I can attend. Probably around 2011!! Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
That pretty much the same thing he said 8 years ago. I've had some board houses tell me that they love Valor's ODB++ and they are pushing the format as the new standard. A improved standard to replace Gerber would be great but you need the various vendors to drop their self-interest in their own formats and that's not going to happen any time soon. Steve Smith Product Engineer Staco Energy Products Co. Web Site: www.stacoenergy.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Adolphs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:00 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers It was Dieter Bergman I was talking about at a IPC Workshop April 2001. He also said (I'm paraphrasing) All of the PCB Designers need to apply pressure on the PCB Manufacturers to start accepting GenCAM which is far superior and will give us much better PCBs. Garbage in - garbage out. Quality in - quality out. Gerber simply does not supply enough data and can be misinterpreted in many ways. Dieter was very interesting and I did learn some things. I looking forward to the next workshop I can attend. Probably around 2011!! Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * - or email - * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=leave%20proteledaforum * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers
Greetings all, I may have missed some of this thread, but I wished to jump in to agree that the proprietary interests of the software companies is a major setback to progress on a good replacement for gerber format data. I know several CAM operators that love odb++ and the Valor Genesis package but they work in baord houses that have BIG customers (like Motorola) that always give them the data in the same format, same layer naming conventions, same polygon pour structures,... and exacting design rule checks already done before it ever goes out to them so the programs automatic features always work well and they bought the Plotting, electrical testing and automated Optical inspection equipment from the same supplier as a complete package. Most shops don't have that luxury. I worked in manufacturing for 20+ years before getting into design 10 years ago, and I still get my hand in manufacturing a bit. I've used the Genesis/odb++ system and ONCE it is set up and scripted it works well until one needs to make simple edits or work with old legacy data and then it's a show stopper! The scripting process was tedious painful and never was completely successful in this application since it had to meet requirements for at least 15 different customers at a time. It generally costs a board house over ~100K per seat (yes $100K and ~35k for additional basic editor seats) with licences that time out and disable the package unti renewed (that was bad when it timed out a month too soon) and the tech support people tend to misunderstand requests and do not seem to understand the need for flexibility. to edit a file that needs minimal cleanup, but just a couple minor edits to a file get clean data to the older Gerber/Barco photoplotter and AOI machines was almost impossible (I speak from personal experiance as of last August) This often added great delays to quick turn projects that with an old gerber editor like Lavenir took just a few minutes to do. Genesis has some very good features and some of the plug-in filters for automatically cleaning up bad data. These are pricey also and seldom needed since most layout packages these days produce pretty clean data when driven by an experienced hand. So until the proprietary issues can be set aside and a simple truly compatible data format is established a good board house will have to have many seats of software and well trained techs to handle ODB++ AND GEN-CAM data AND a solid basic gerber editor like Lavenir, Gerbtool or Cam-Cad Thus driving their tooling prices up. Although the gerber editors are getting better with new input filters for the new formats they are not quite there yet. It's like DXF input filters - nobody ever did seem to get it exactly right. Even AutoCAD had trouble reading dxf's it could generate for many years. The old gerber format will be with us a long time because the old basic structure is still there underneath all the newer stuff and there are a lot of shops that will be keeping it regardless of all the new leading edge stuff that comes and goes. Best regards to All Evan Scarborough www.e-cadds.com From: Steve Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:12:22 -0400 That pretty much the same thing he said 8 years ago. I've had some board houses tell me that they love Valor's ODB++ and they are pushing the format as the new standard. A improved standard to replace Gerber would be great but you need the various vendors to drop their self-interest in their own formats and that's not going to happen any time soon. Steve Smith Product Engineer Staco Energy Products Co. Web Site: www.stacoenergy.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Adolphs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:00 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] file formats for PCB manufacturers It was Dieter Bergman I was talking about at a IPC Workshop April 2001. He also said (I'm paraphrasing) All of the PCB Designers need to apply pressure on the PCB Manufacturers to start accepting GenCAM which is far superior and will give us much better PCBs. Garbage in - garbage out. Quality in - quality out. Gerber simply does not supply enough data and can be misinterpreted in many ways. Dieter was very interesting and I did learn some things. I looking forward to the next workshop I can attend. Probably around 2011!! Jeff Adolphs Lake Shore Cryotronics, Inc. Westerville, Ohio, USA www.lakeshore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers
