Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-22 Conversa suso
Christian Perrier escrebeu:
 Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
  Yes... and you are not the only one who can see that. Indeed, that
  inactivity is one of the reasons why Galician Government FLOSS Center
  has decided to choose Ubuntu instead of Debian as the base of its desktop
  developments [0].
 
 And, well, Ubuntu's dpkg, apt, aptitude are localized
 becauseJacobo did the work..:-). So is the Ubuntu installer,
 Ubuntu's iso-codes, Ubuntu's console keymap choices, etc, etc.
 
 Jacobo is one of the most reliable l10n actors I had the honor to work
 with during the last years. Don't forget that, nearly alone, he raised
 Galician statistics so high that your language is topping all other
 languages from Spain, including Castillan..:-)
 

Yes, yes, I know all that Christian, and I'll never get tired to express
my gratitude and admiration for Jacobo's work. I'll even let myself to
feel galician patriotic feelings and so in case that could be considered
a good thing :-) But, at the same time please compare this two archives:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-galician/
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-l10n-gl/

Only the existance of a localization community can ensure the persistance
in the long term of the contributions made from the public administration
as well as its projects suitability to the free software development
paradigms. That's what Ubuntu is providing as an added value (and 
surprinsingly Debian not) in the galician case: community. That's not
easy for me to admit as a Debian advocator and user.

 Probably other actors of Galicia l10n have to learn how to work with
 such an efficient worker but I don't really see any reason why that
 couldn't happen.
 

I agree. But please consideer how much is needed that such an efficient
worker agrees on allowing others to work with him: and how
debian-l10n-galician mailing list might be effectively used as the main
resource of Debian galician localization workflow: basically because
that's its _own_ l10n mailing list.

Anyway that's simply my opinion. If I can do something to help in 
finding a way to strap on its boots the galician l10n Debian community
providing a generational replacement without loosing Jacobo's
contribution, just tell me. I'm sure the debian galician community will
arise at last and we all together will find a proper solution, even when
we could need plenty of time to achieve that objective. 

Yours,


Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-22 Conversa Christian Perrier
Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):

 Yes, yes, I know all that Christian, and I'll never get tired to express
 my gratitude and admiration for Jacobo's work. I'll even let myself to
 feel galician patriotic feelings and so in case that could be considered
 a good thing :-) But, at the same time please compare this two archives:
 
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-galician/
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-l10n-gl/

This definitely proves that Ubuntu is attracting the
resources. Something we, indeed, experience in about all l10n teams.

The activity of the French team, for instance, didn't change that much
over years and we're even losing manpower, slowly, which is not
exactly compensated by new blood.

Certainly, here, there's an influence of the emergence of Ubuntu. It
attracts newcomers more easily.among these, there's a noticeable
number of people who want to collaborate but can't do it on
programming-style staks, then are naturally turned to l10n activities.

Hence the big bump in Ubuntu l10n community while the Debian one is
mostly hosed. Another explanation probably being that the animation
of the community can be done by dedicated resources (understand
people paid for this) while the same in Debian requires time and
energy from volunteers (see how slow we're developing stuff around
i18n.debian.net).

So, not really aproblem specific to Galician, but a more general problem.

Ways to collaborate have to be found there but that needs to overcome
some difficulties:

- the initial start of Ubuntu l10n work was translate a lot no matter
how you do it, resulting in poor quality, lack of proofreading and no
interaction with upstreamas well as loss of confidence from those
people who were doing the same work with much caution, for years. I
think that this image is still stuck to Ubuntu l10n, which requires
overcoming the reticences of those who are doing that work for years
(which includes /me)

- basing the work on Rosetta, being non free, places a philosophical
challenge here

- no communication between those in charge (not
deliberately...mostly because of lack of time to invest on this,
particularly in Debian. Also because, there is always some reluctance,
on the Debian side, to see our work being stolen.whether this
is true or not)

I don't really know how Rosetta has been improved to better interact
with upstream (as upstream for DI, I don't really see things coming
by themselves...while I have to admit that I have access to some stuff
that's done in Rosetta and am free to reinclude it in DI...however
with no idea about the quality of the work I'm including).

Back to Galician: I think that it should somewhat be the duty of
Jacobo to build that community by using d-l-galician more often and
invest some time in helping people there as well as establishing work
methods.

However, just like anybody else, I have no power to enforce that if
there is no will for it to happen. And if translations continue to
come from an individual, they'll still be the reference.

As a conclusion, I really encourage people who want more progress in
Debian Galician l10n to:

- use d-l-galician for work
- encourage Jacobo to work with the team and establish work
methods. That definitely needs some investment of time but that will
be compensated by the extra (wo)manpower that would get attracted on
long term.






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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa suso
Hi Nicolas,

Galician language missed there.

Greets,

Nicolas François escrebeu:
 Hello,
 
 All language teams using the pseudo-urls are in copy.
 Please reply to debian-i18n.
 
 I've prepared a new script for the generation of the coordination pages
 (http://i18n.debian.net/debian-l10n/)
 
 It will handle errors in a better way, which should result in less
 messages being missed by the robot and less messages being kept in the BTS
 state (when bugs are closed in the BTS, but not noticed).
 
 The new pages are currently generated on:
 http://i18n.debian.net/~nekral/www-debian-l10n/
 
 I rebuilt the database by parsing the mailing list since their creation.
 
 You will notice that there are some old messages. Those ones were not
 closed with some BTS or DONE tags.
 
 For the French team, it would make sense to just remove all the entries
 older than 2006-01-01.
 
 Could you review the new pages and check if using the 2006-01-01 threshold
 would be OK for all of you?
 (I can use a different threshold for each mailing lists.
 You may also prefer to use some DONE messages to close them.)
 
 Best Regards,
 -- 
 Nekral
 
 
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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa Christian Perrier
Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
 Hi Nicolas,
 
 Galician language missed there.


Well, as far as we know, the team does not use pseudo-URLs in a
mailing list to track down work.

Indeed, debian-l10n-galician is mostly...inactive as far as I can see.




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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa suso
Yes... and you are not the only one who can see that. Indeed, that
inactivity is one of the reasons why Galician Government FLOSS Center
has decided to choose Ubuntu instead of Debian as the base of its desktop
developments [0].

It is not possible to trust in a software distro whose 'localization
community' means... just one person. Too weak, too vulnerable, too
unsustainable in the long term [1], as you may easily understand. Unless
you trust in pregnant birds, as the old galician proverb says.

Yours,

--
[0] http://apt.mancomun.org/

[1] As an user, I detected that potential danger at December 2006. So
  I decided to contribute changing the Debian l10n galician community
  status from non-existant to existant. I achieved to attract near
  60 motivated volunteers to support the creation of the
  debian-l10n-galician _public_ mailing list, so it was finally created
  in order to stablish an open collaboration channel for all us
  interested in Debian localization to galician language.

  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=404451

  But: just after the creation of that list, it seems that Debian 
  internal decission making process decided to exclude their own galician
  l10n mailing list from the entire localization workflow, as the
  absence of messages in the archive clearly demostrates. Perhaps that
  strange behaviour can be based on this:

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2006/12/msg00194.html

  Even if that is the reason as it is not, the results of your excluding
  policy are very visible: you changed the state of the galician l10n
  Debian community from active (and motivated) to inactive (and
  reluctant).

  As the Coordinator of the Government of Galicia FLOSS Center [2] that 
  turns impossible for me to support at the official channels the
  convenience of using and investing on a GNU/Linux distro like Debian
  which is uncapable to maintain a galician localization community;
  specially when the same people subscribed to the debian-l10n-galician
  mailing list are succesfuly involved and active in other free software
  projects.

  Of course, my duties as a civil servant will not unallow me to
  continue contributing with Debian in a personal way. In this sense, and 
  as that Debian user who is the founder of the galician l10n debian 
  mailing list, I might inform you that our list will remain inactive until
  you decide to allow galician people to collaborate. Of course if you 
  prefer to maintain that inactive status, I will respect it, even when
  it's clearly a wrong decisition in the long term, from my point of view.

  All that summarized: Debian exclusive trust in Tarrío, makes me
  trusting in Tarrío by his valuable contribution, while at the same time
  makes me untrusting Debian itself, at least in the i18n part of the
  things.

[2] http://www.mancomun.org/

  


Christian Perrier escrebeu:
 Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
  Hi Nicolas,
  
  Galician language missed there.
 
 
 Well, as far as we know, the team does not use pseudo-URLs in a
 mailing list to track down work.
 
 Indeed, debian-l10n-galician is mostly...inactive as far as I can see.
 
 


Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa Jacobo Tarrio
El sábado, 21 de junio de 2008 a las 16:00:01 +0200, s...@riseup.net escribía:

 Só vou respostar unha vez a esta soberana parvada.

 Debian non ten ningún tipo de acordo exclusivo comigo nin viceversa. A
responsabilidade de que se faga ou non o traballo é da xente que fai (ou non
fai) ese traballo. Se queredes traballar en l10n de Debian o único que tedes
que facer é traballar en l10n de Debian.

 Sei de sobra que o contido da miña mensaxe é moi doado de malinterpretar.
Non pretendo que sexa unha ameaza, advertencia ou cousa mafiosa de ningún
tipo. O único que digo é que o meu caracter e a miña maneira de traballar
non se axustan ben ao traballo de localización en equipo, polo que se outra
xente quere traballar, non debe contar comigo.

 Finalmente, levo anos procurando me manter fóra do camiño da outra xente
que queira traballar en localización. Por iso, tendo en conta o que digo no
parágrafo anterior, non participo noutros equipos de tradución. Por iso non
participo nas discusións que hai ás veces na lista do Trasno. É dicir, non
me meto nin interfiro, a pesares do que algúns poidan pensar, e tamén
querería que se me brindase a mesma cortesía. Xa estou farto de ler cousas
sobre vacas sagradas e non sei que máis cousas e de ter a culpa de todo.

 En resumo: se non traballades en l10n de Debian, a culpa é vosa. Non de
Debian, nin miña, senón só vosa. E a min deixádeme en paz dunha vez.

 E isto é o último que vou dicir sobre o tema.

 (Non vou solicitar que Suso se desdiga ou pida disculpas nin nada polo
estilo, porque xa sei que había ser unha petición totalmente inútil).

 Yes... and you are not the only one who can see that. Indeed, that
 inactivity is one of the reasons why Galician Government FLOSS Center
 has decided to choose Ubuntu instead of Debian as the base of its desktop
 developments [0].
 
 It is not possible to trust in a software distro whose 'localization
 community' means... just one person. Too weak, too vulnerable, too
 unsustainable in the long term [1], as you may easily understand. Unless
 you trust in pregnant birds, as the old galician proverb says.
 
 Yours,
 
 --
 [0] http://apt.mancomun.org/
 
 [1] As an user, I detected that potential danger at December 2006. So
   I decided to contribute changing the Debian l10n galician community
   status from non-existant to existant. I achieved to attract near
   60 motivated volunteers to support the creation of the
   debian-l10n-galician _public_ mailing list, so it was finally created
   in order to stablish an open collaboration channel for all us
   interested in Debian localization to galician language.
 
   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=404451
 
   But: just after the creation of that list, it seems that Debian 
   internal decission making process decided to exclude their own galician
   l10n mailing list from the entire localization workflow, as the
   absence of messages in the archive clearly demostrates. Perhaps that
   strange behaviour can be based on this:
 
   http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2006/12/msg00194.html
 
   Even if that is the reason as it is not, the results of your excluding
   policy are very visible: you changed the state of the galician l10n
   Debian community from active (and motivated) to inactive (and
   reluctant).
 
   As the Coordinator of the Government of Galicia FLOSS Center [2] that 
   turns impossible for me to support at the official channels the
   convenience of using and investing on a GNU/Linux distro like Debian
   which is uncapable to maintain a galician localization community;
   specially when the same people subscribed to the debian-l10n-galician
   mailing list are succesfuly involved and active in other free software
   projects.
 
   Of course, my duties as a civil servant will not unallow me to
   continue contributing with Debian in a personal way. In this sense, and 
   as that Debian user who is the founder of the galician l10n debian 
   mailing list, I might inform you that our list will remain inactive until
   you decide to allow galician people to collaborate. Of course if you 
   prefer to maintain that inactive status, I will respect it, even when
   it's clearly a wrong decisition in the long term, from my point of view.
 
   All that summarized: Debian exclusive trust in Tarrío, makes me
   trusting in Tarrío by his valuable contribution, while at the same time
   makes me untrusting Debian itself, at least in the i18n part of the
   things.
 
 [2] http://www.mancomun.org/
 
   
 
 
 Christian Perrier escrebeu:
  Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
   Hi Nicolas,
   
   Galician language missed there.
  
  
  Well, as far as we know, the team does not use pseudo-URLs in a
  mailing list to track down work.
  
  Indeed, debian-l10n-galician is mostly...inactive as far as I can see.
  
  
 
 
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 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-i18n-requ...@lists.debian.org
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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa suso
Jacobo Tarrio escrebeu:
 O único que digo é que o meu caracter e a miña maneira de traballar
 non se axustan ben ao traballo de localización en equipo, polo que se outra
 xente quere traballar, non debe contar comigo.

Creo que a estas alturas todo o mundo ten perfectamente claro eso que dis
e creo que ninguén pon en dúbida o teu direito a traballar como queiras.

Se da miña mensaxe deduces outra cousa entón deberías darlle unha volta
máis por que ninguén se está metendo contigo e pola túa reacción
parecería que sí. Xa teño notado que por algún motivo o que eu escrebo
aféctate especialmente, e ben que me coido de evitar ferir
susceptibilidades. A miña única referencia a tí foi pra recoñecer o valor
do teu traballo, considera iso.

  En resumo: se non traballades en l10n de Debian, a culpa é vosa. Non
  de Debian, nin miña, senón só vosa. E a min deixádeme en paz dunha vez.

Para o bon e para o malo nos proxectos comunitarios as responsabilidades 
son sempre colectivas; e iso inclúenos a todos, tanto se gostamos diso
como se non.

Saúdos,


Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa Jacobo Tarrio
El sábado, 21 de junio de 2008 a las 17:29:53 +0200, s...@riseup.net escribía:

 Se da miña mensaxe deduces outra cousa entón deberías darlle unha volta
 máis por que ninguén se está metendo contigo e pola túa reacción
 parecería que sí. Xa teño notado que por algún motivo o que eu escrebo
 aféctate especialmente, e ben que me coido de evitar ferir
 susceptibilidades. A miña única referencia a tí foi pra recoñecer o valor
 do teu traballo, considera iso.

 Resumo da túa mensaxe: creamos a comunidade de traductores en Debian, pero
por algún motivo impedíronnos traballar, como se demostra pola inactividade
da lista. O único motivo que se me ocorre é esta mensaxe de Jacobo. A culpa
é vosa. A lista ha continuar inactiva ata que deixedes de sabotearnos.

 Creo que está claro dabondo.

 Adxunto a mensaxe por se alguén quere comparar o meu resumo co contido
orixinal da mensaxe.

-- 
   Jacobo Tarrío | http://jacobo.tarrio.org/
Yes... and you are not the only one who can see that. Indeed, that
inactivity is one of the reasons why Galician Government FLOSS Center
has decided to choose Ubuntu instead of Debian as the base of its desktop
developments [0].

It is not possible to trust in a software distro whose 'localization
community' means... just one person. Too weak, too vulnerable, too
unsustainable in the long term [1], as you may easily understand. Unless
you trust in pregnant birds, as the old galician proverb says.

Yours,

--
[0] http://apt.mancomun.org/

[1] As an user, I detected that potential danger at December 2006. So
  I decided to contribute changing the Debian l10n galician community
  status from non-existant to existant. I achieved to attract near
  60 motivated volunteers to support the creation of the
  debian-l10n-galician _public_ mailing list, so it was finally created
  in order to stablish an open collaboration channel for all us
  interested in Debian localization to galician language.

  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=404451

  But: just after the creation of that list, it seems that Debian 
  internal decission making process decided to exclude their own galician
  l10n mailing list from the entire localization workflow, as the
  absence of messages in the archive clearly demostrates. Perhaps that
  strange behaviour can be based on this:

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2006/12/msg00194.html

  Even if that is the reason as it is not, the results of your excluding
  policy are very visible: you changed the state of the galician l10n
  Debian community from active (and motivated) to inactive (and
  reluctant).

  As the Coordinator of the Government of Galicia FLOSS Center [2] that 
  turns impossible for me to support at the official channels the
  convenience of using and investing on a GNU/Linux distro like Debian
  which is uncapable to maintain a galician localization community;
  specially when the same people subscribed to the debian-l10n-galician
  mailing list are succesfuly involved and active in other free software
  projects.

  Of course, my duties as a civil servant will not unallow me to
  continue contributing with Debian in a personal way. In this sense, and 
  as that Debian user who is the founder of the galician l10n debian 
  mailing list, I might inform you that our list will remain inactive until
  you decide to allow galician people to collaborate. Of course if you 
  prefer to maintain that inactive status, I will respect it, even when
  it's clearly a wrong decisition in the long term, from my point of view.

  All that summarized: Debian exclusive trust in Tarr?o, makes me
  trusting in Tarr?o by his valuable contribution, while at the same time
  makes me untrusting Debian itself, at least in the i18n part of the
  things.

[2] http://www.mancomun.org/

  


Christian Perrier escrebeu:
 Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
  Hi Nicolas,
  
  Galician language missed there.
 
 
 Well, as far as we know, the team does not use pseudo-URLs in a
 mailing list to track down work.
 
 Indeed, debian-l10n-galician is mostly...inactive as far as I can see.
 
 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-i18n-requ...@lists.debian.org
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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa suso . baleato
Jacobo Tarrio escrebeu:
 El sábado, 21 de junio de 2008 a las 17:29:53 +0200, s...@riseup.net escribía:

  Resumo da túa mensaxe: creamos a comunidade de traductores en Debian, pero
 por algún motivo impedíronnos traballar, como se demostra pola inactividade
 da lista. O único motivo que se me ocorre é esta mensaxe de Jacobo. A culpa
 é vosa. A lista ha continuar inactiva ata que deixedes de sabotearnos.


O resumo da miña mensaxe é que se a lista está inactiva, é por 
responsabilidade colectiva; o que te inclúe a tí, como é natural.

  Creo que está claro dabondo.
 

Espero que agora sí. Non acabo de entender moi ben a qué ven esta
reacción túa tan agresiva. 

Saúde,


Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa Christian Perrier
Quoting s...@riseup.net (s...@riseup.net):
 Yes... and you are not the only one who can see that. Indeed, that
 inactivity is one of the reasons why Galician Government FLOSS Center
 has decided to choose Ubuntu instead of Debian as the base of its desktop
 developments [0].

Which is quite nonsense as I don't really see why Ubuntu wouyld be better
translated...unless of course people who localize in Ubuntu don't
really care for their work to go upstreamahem

And, well, Ubuntu's dpkg, apt, aptitude are localized
becauseJacobo did the work..:-). So is the Ubuntu installer,
Ubuntu's iso-codes, Ubuntu's console keymap choices, etc, etc.

 
 It is not possible to trust in a software distro whose 'localization
 community' means... just one person. Too weak, too vulnerable, too
 unsustainable in the long term [1], as you may easily understand. Unless
 you trust in pregnant birds, as the old galician proverb says.


Jacobo is one of the most reliable l10n actors I had the honor to work
with during the last years. Don't forget that, nearly alone, he raised
Galician statistics so high that your language is topping all other
languages from Spain, including Castillan..:-)

Probably other actors of Galicia l10n have to learn how to work with
such an efficient worker but I don't really see any reason why that
couldn't happen.




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Re: New version of the coordination pages (pseudo-urls)

2008-06-21 Conversa mvillarino
O Sábado 21 Xuño 2008 17:11, Jacobo Tarrio escribiu:
 sobre vacas sagradas e non sei que máis cousas e de ter a culpa de todo.
Tomo nota. A vindeira vez que me queira referir colectivamente á xente que 
formaba parte de trasno no primeiro lustro desta década empregarei algo 
diferente.
-- 
Best regards,
MV